Thanks Frank I'll try that.
Pops
Popbagz,
What you have just described about the frog area being too high, is exactly what I was getting at. With the frog area being high, it is causing the outside stock rails to be low, making your stock and guard rails to look like this:////, when a wheel trys to go through it, the flange picks the point, this will happen a lot, if your rolling stock/ boxcars whatever and especially six axle engines, that do not have much vertical to horizontal movement, in otherwords too rigid, So rather than follow a dip of high spot, one end floats, until it catchs something, causing your derailments. Take a straight edge ruler preferrably a metal one and stand it on edge from your frog extending out to your stock rails on Your turnouts. You should not see any space between the rails and ruler. Do that along all your track before and after your turnout and turnout included. It should become evident what your problem is. Athough having #8's is great, they are unforgiving in any twisting non-level area's.
It would not hurt to make your outside stock rail guards with a little more clearance.
Good Luck! Be methodical, You'll fix it.
Take Care!
Frank
RE: The guard rails
The guard rails on a couple my Peco turnouts were causing occasional derailments even though they passed the gauge test. At times a wheel would catch on the guard rail. The guard rail is plastic. I took a small flat bladed screw driver and put it between the rail and the guard rail at the entry point to the turnout and turned it ever so slightly to increase the opening.
Perhaps the problem was with the cars but this was an easy fix.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
What I have found is that when I pressed down on the turnout in the trouble area I sould see that it wasnt tight to the corkbed. I added some nails which improved the situation but it is still a problem. I'm thiking I should remove all nails and reset the area as the only thing that could cause the turnout to rise up in the middle is pressure from the ajoining tracks.
These are two of four #8s on the layout. The other two do not have this problem.
Frank,
I also thought the railguards were tight but the guage did go through them. Would it be advisable to file them slightly?
popbagzSorry , My original post indicates all my Engines are BLI but i did not mean that all the Peco 83 switches were problems. I started out with problem on 4, #8 turnouts, made some adjustments from suggestions by all the responders here and now have two remaining turnout with the problem.
Are there any other #8 turnouts on the layout or just these two?
Rich
Alton Junction
I really don't see any big problem with Your approach tracks, but it does appear to me that the stock rail guard rails and frog guard rails are really tight looking and a wheel that is ever so slightly out of gauge will pick them causing what you have been describing. Especially where they bend inward. When the wheels pick that part, it will lift your one side of engine ever so slightly and cause you to loose power contact, thereby creating lose of power, which you say is a short. Your just losing power, not a short, a short is when two opposite polaritys touch. If You do have that NMRA track gauge, use one side edge that has no markings on it and try to slide it across both rails leading into frog going in both directions. You should be able to do that in both directions with each rail, without the gauge snagging on anything. You could have one stock rail lower, or higher than the frog, or even the frog too high, to cause what you are describing. Try using just a truck with wheels, from one of Your cars and roll it through your turnouts with you finger, paying attention to what it does, does it appear restricted? Does it rise/lower in area's? Can you give it a shove and have it go in any direction without stopping, which is a indication of being too tight a gauge.
You shouldn't be having all those problem's with those turnouts. Unless they are not installed perfectly level.
Thanks Doughless, I'm gonna try resetting the track. Here's a new one, it's worse when pulling a load of cars!
Well, with #8 frogs and SD40 locos, that combination should work just fine.
Its not obvious, but it looks to me like the approach tracks and the turnout tracks are slightly kinked at the joint of both turnouts. And I think the bottom photo shows the curved flex track has a bit of a sharp elbow to its otherwise broad radius as it approaches the turnout.
You might want to just take up the tracks, recurve the flex, and redo the joints. I would try that before I would start filing and fiddling with the turnouts themselves.
As a general rule, I like to have at least one inch, preferably more, of straight track where it meets the point side of the turnout. It looks to me like the flex tracks curves immediately into the turnout track in both instances.
- Douglas
Okay try this link to see the pictures"
popbagz Okay, got some pics but cant figure out how to post here yet!
Okay, got some pics but cant figure out how to post here yet!
Try this link: http://cs.trains.com/p/help.aspx#forums9.
Joe
Thank you for all your suggestions. This is my first time here and I am impressed with the responses. I am back in the buillding after being away for a few days. I am off to the trainroom now to take pics of the 2 remaining problem turnouts and will post them here.
Great Idea
I'll take a pic of the problem turnouts and post it here as the aren next to each other in the layout
Hi Guys its me! Let me be clearer. All the enignes In my layout are BLIs. I have all Peco turnouts 13 in all. The only ones giving me problems are the #8 insulfrogs. On two of them My SD40-2's snow plow would crash into the leading edge of the guardrails so filing down the leading edges fixed that. I only have the derailing problem on two of them.
After trying all the suggestions posted here, I've gotten to the point where now, the lead truck risies up at the guardrail causing a short at the frog. Engine stops then drops back onto the rail and continues.
yes, I have one and I'm using it
thanks
Yes the aproaching is dead straight into the switch
they are insulfrogs
Thanks,
The Frog is #8. Wheels are 3 axels per truck, Double Truck. I eliminated a little unflatness. Its better but the truck still lifs off the rails at the guardrails.
Yes, Whells are in gauge
This appears to be another of those threads that has all kinds of good advice and help. But the OP, has left the building.
All of his diesels derail on all of his Peco turnouts.
So all of the Peco turnouts are out of gauge?
Methinks not.
More likely it is the track that precedes the turnouts.
I made a comprehensive observation at the very front of this thread, and it seems it has all been discussed in the ensuing comments and banter. I will now add that I have little confidence in commercial turnouts of the non-Peco and Micro Engineering kind since in the former case I have had no problems with the many I use, and I have never used any of the latter and can't justly criticize them. Altas: I have exactly one, the one with the black frog and it routes power. Seems fine. W/S?
...oh yeah...W/S. Misrepresented radii on their curved #7.5's. And I'm not the only one who sez this. Their curved #8 seemed okay, but some of my BLI steamers didn't like it. Why would they not like an even wider curved turnout with a stated radius of the inner route of 28"? Beats me.
Then there's that truly wretched 30 deg diamond I placed in my scissors-type turning wye on my new layout. I hope I don't offend, but that thing is as useful as dog poop.
richhotrain zstripe Rich, I would like to know, where I said that the turnouts were out of gauge?
zstripe Rich, I would like to know, where I said that the turnouts were out of gauge?
Rich,
I would like to know, where I said that the turnouts were out of gauge?
Rob Spangler
I use three, on one piece of flex, when installing.
The older three point gauges that Atlas made were really necessary, when you laid brass code 100 track on cork, with fibre ties and spiking them. Started doing that 1955. I still use them.
Have Fun!
BRAKIE For what this may be worth(perhaps absolutely nothing ) I never owned one of those thingys like Frank uses..
For what this may be worth(perhaps absolutely nothing ) I never owned one of those thingys like Frank uses..
Does Frank actually use one? He didn't actually say that he did, just that we should.
richhotrain zstripe This is one of the uses and reasoning of me posting the diagram for the use of the three point track gauge on flex track. It appears that some have never used one. It appears that you don't use one either since you posted a stock photo. Rich
zstripe This is one of the uses and reasoning of me posting the diagram for the use of the three point track gauge on flex track. It appears that some have never used one.
This is one of the uses and reasoning of me posting the diagram for the use of the three point track gauge on flex track. It appears that some have never used one.
It appears that you don't use one either since you posted a stock photo.
I use the NMRA guage like I was taught decades ago.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
richhotrainIt could be, but if one goes back and read the OP's initial post, all of his engines derail on all of his Peco turnouts.
Rich,I reread what the op had to say and this jumps out at me-BLI diesels.
That would be my prime point of interest--binding trucks or wheels out of gauge.
If my memory serves that problem was discussed on the old Atlas forum.