Just finished watching Cody's Office .He reviewed a r.t.r freight car that sells in the $40. range. Well detailed etc. etc and no doubt worth the money. However can newcomers to our hobby afford this and are many potential newcomers put off getting involved by these prices. I bought my first Mantua loco,the Booster, more years ago than I wish to remember and over the years most of my rolling stock was of the Athearn blue box type, with added detail if I thought or felt it was necessary. It wasn't until I retired 12 yrs ago that I went full steam ahead in this hobby and now have a two level 20ft X 16ft ell shaped virtually complete layout in my garage. I have begun to update and replace my rolling stock but am frustrated by the lack of reasonably priced kits on the market. Personally I think there must be a demand for somewhat realistically detailed kits in the $20 range that fill the void created when the blue box type of kit dissppeared. If they are available please let me know. For what it's worth, just my opinion.
Bruce22,
The go to kits. Better detail than BB kits and a lot cheaper than RTR, add Kadee's or coupler of your choice and can have a very impressive fleet, in no time:
http://www.accurail.com/accurail/
Frank
Gidday Bruce, I doubt if I can link this properly but this is a reasonably recent list from NP2626 regarding available ( at the time) car kits.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/211105.aspx
Now I 'll disappear before this turns into a free-for-all.
Cheers, the Bear.
Edit: Curses it won’t link !!!!!
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
zstripe Bruce22, The go to kits. Better detail than BB kits and a lot cheaper than RTR, add Kadee's or coupler of your choice and can have a very impressive fleet, in no time: http://www.accurail.com/accurail/ Frank
I have over 100 freight cars from 7 different manufacturers but, incredibly, none from Accurail. That's because when I bought most of my freight cars early on, the boys at my LHS didn't tell me about Accurail.
I have only heard good things about Accurail, and the kits are available at places like MB Klein for such prices as $10, $11, $12.
Rich
Alton Junction
Bear,
That's OK about the link. Kalmbach is well aware of that problem, with making prior Thread links clickable, on the new software. but they are working on it. One point I had brought up with my conversations with them.
richhotrainI have only heard good things about Accurail
A big tick from me. (also Bowser).
There's no need to buy those $40.00 cars when there's cheaper alternatives.
I quit buying those high dollar cars since I couldn't tell the difference under normal operation viewing.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
zstripe Bear, That's OK about the link. Kalmbach is well aware of that problem, with making prior Thread links clickable, on the new software. but they are working on it. One point I had brought up with my conversations with them. Frank
Frank, I'm not sure that your conversations are having any effect. How long does it take to fix a problem? My gut tells me that they are not working on anything. They know they purchased crappy software. That's why it has not been installed on any other forum. You can go back and read any of the prior threads. Most of the problems cited on those threads persist to this day.
Rich,
You are entitled to believe what You want to believe and your opinions of same. You just have to remember what I said before. The forums are secondary to the prioritys of running a profitable business. And it isn't cheap software, believe it or not.
The market will not price itself out of business. Manufacturers will make what they can sell to the public at a profit and that includes high end, low end and in between. The buyer has a choice and votes with his dollars. Yes you can buy a 40‘ boxcar at about a buck a scale foot if you like, but there are plenty of inexpensive kits and RTR available. My LHS stocks lots of Accurail which last I checked was selling in the $12-15 range.
The high end kits tend to have lots of very fine detail and that’s great if that is important to you. I actually prefer the cheaper kits with less detail. That fine detail is easily broken if you aren’t extremely careful when handling it. Just last night I went to replace the couplers on one of those high end cars. I turned it over and discovered there was an amazing amount of fine detail on the underside of the car. The problem I discovered is that it is almost impossible to open the coupler pocket to change couplers. I completely disassembled the car and still can’t figure how to get at the couplers. I think I know who made this car but since I’m not sure I won’t mention the name, but if they are going to go to the trouble of putting all this detail into their car and make it almost impossible to change couplers, at least put a KD in it instead of some cheap Brand X coupler. To me, it is much more important how a car operates than how it looks. To me all that underside detail is a waste since you can’t see it when the car is on the layout. I didn’t even know it was there until I went to change the coupler.
I didn’t start out intending to rant but sometimes you just get carried away.
HIGH PRICES?
Hah! Pepsi used to be 10c a can, and now is about $1.00 or more per can. The subway used to cost 15c (in my memory) and is now $2.50.Nickel candy bars are now 95cI remember gasoline at 31c a gallon, now you would do well to find it at 3.80 a gallon.Wine that I used to sell for $3.00 a bottle just 15 years ago is now $7.75,the average sale at my register used to be around $20.00, now it is at least $60.00. If you can spend $60.00 on wine that you will consume this week, I see nothing wrong with a $40.00 box car that you will keep for a life time.Atheran Blu-box cars were $4.00 modern cars are $40.00.
Frankly I do not see any difference. Every thing has gone up ten-fold.
Qvit ur whining, and pay da tab.
ROAR
PS... Living in a sheltered environment, such as I do, prices "out there" always seem to shock me. They are what they are.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Another round of price whining...so original.
The only way a $40 car prices you out of the market is if you think you need it. There are literally millions of other cars out there, new and used. The vast majority cost a whole lot less. If the only way to fix your model railroading jones is with a $40 car, then this is a problem. But that's a personal issue, not the death of model railroading.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
zstripe Rich, You are entitled to believe what You want to believe and your opinions of same. You just have to remember what I said before. The forums are secondary to the prioritys of running a profitable business. And it isn't cheap software, believe it or not. Frank
If the software was expensive, then Kalmbach really got ripped off.
jecorbett I didn’t start out intending to rant but sometimes you just get carried away.
What was it that Gordon Gekko said?
Rant is good!
bruce22 Just finished watching Cody's Office .He reviewed a r.t.r freight car that sells in the $40. range. Well detailed etc. etc and no doubt worth the money. However can newcomers to our hobby afford this and are many potential newcomers put off getting involved by these prices.
Just finished watching Cody's Office .He reviewed a r.t.r freight car that sells in the $40. range. Well detailed etc. etc and no doubt worth the money. However can newcomers to our hobby afford this and are many potential newcomers put off getting involved by these prices.
My opinion? Red herring.
Yes there are nicely detailed models priced around $40 each give or take, But there are also LOTS of models available for $5-15 at trains shows and ebay, swap meets. Your argmument is like new car buyers being put off by the price of a Mercedes Benz or a BMW, or even a Lexus. Sure they would be. But you can go and buy a Ford or maybe a Nissan, and if new is too expensive, a good used car. Same thing for the hobby - lots of alternatives. IMO, saying new comers would be put off by an expensive train car is a red herring when there are clearly much cheaper alternatives.
I have begun to update and replace my rolling stock but am frustrated by the lack of reasonably priced kits on the market. Personally I think there must be a demand for somewhat realistically detailed kits in the $20 range that fill the void created when the blue box type of kit dissppeared. If they are available please let me know. For what it's worth, just my opinion.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but the facts far that there are tons of kits from Athearn, MDC, Walthers, Accurail, Proto 2000, etc. on the secondary market at trains shows and Ebay. I know this to be true because I see it all the time. Folks like me and hundreds of others bought more kits than they ever had time to put together and now they are selling most of them off. I have been to train shows in several different states it's the same at the train shows all around, lots of kits for in the 5 to 10 dollar prices range. In fact I've found RTR Intermountain nice models in the $8-15 dollar range. You many need to find out how where you live how to access this market of kits, but there are there. Not just opnion but fact.
This same topic comes up where people complain, and the answer is always the same. There is no lack of inexpensive kits. Yes, model companies aren't producing them and shipping them to your local dealer, but even if they did they would be alot more expensive because it isn't economical to manufacture kits anymore, there isn't the demand out there that there once was, it has been replaced by demand for RTR rolling stock. AND ... there is a glut of kits out there on the secondary market - I've seen many many examples for myself over the past 5 years. You need to hone your hunting still on the web, ebay and get in your car and attend a train show in your area. I imagine there are even a number of people on this forum that have more kits than they will ever built and could part with, including myself. Register with the Yahoo Email groups HOSWAP and HOInterchange and you'll find stuff advertised there daily. So thats three sources, Ebay, train shows and online swap email lists. No more excuses.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The truth is that kits are not that popular. It used to be the only way to keep the cost down. But with cheap overseas labor kits don't save much. There are some surviving kits, but like RTR they run the gamut of prices and like the RTR, lower end has cast on details, plastic wheels, etc.
If you like Bluebox kits, hit up the train shows. There are still a lot of them out there at $5-10, sometimes cheaper.
The high end market is interesting. I think that MR and the rest of the hobby press push high cars, locomotives, structures, etc. Not intentionally, but through close up photography of the models. When you have a sharp close up photo of a boxcar/locomotive/structure/etc. in a magazine that you are viewing at 6-8 inches details are noticeable, but when you are looking at the layout and it's 3 feet away they aren't that noticeable. And unless you lay your track on mirrors, who knows what the bottom of the car looks like.
So no, I don't think the hobby is pricing itself out of the market. It never has been free, but I think it can be reasonably priced.
Enjoy
Paul
Here's a suggestion. MR should start something called "Kitbuilder's Bench." Every month, a staffer or perhaps a guest modeler builds a kit. It can be built just right from the directions, or customized to any degree. Painting and weathering, and upgrades to metal wheels and Kadees are all fair game.
I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here, and say that high RTR prices can be a good thing. There are still very reasonably priced kits out there, and the hobby will benefit from more of us developing the kind of skills we get from kitbuilding so that we can keep creating unique, personalized models for our railroads.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Accurail, Bowser, and Branchline are about the only remaining rolling stock kit manufacturers anymore. They each have their strengths and have good to very good detailing for the $$$. Since I enjoy and prefer building kits, I try and patronize them as much as possible.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Accurail, Bowser, and Branchline are about the only remaining rolling stock kit manufacturers anymore. They each have their strengths and have good to very good detailing for the $$$. Since I enjoy and prefer building kits, I try and patronize them as much as possible. Tom
I assume you are refering to low end plastic kits since there are many other kit manufacturers like BTS, Ye Old Huff n Puff, Trout Creek, La Belle, Tichy, Funaro&Carmelengo, and more that I can't think of right at the moment. And of course there are parts and wood/plastic shapes that can be used to parts/scratchbuild.
Paul,
Since the OP mentioned kits in the "$20 range" - yes, lower-end models is what I had in mind. That said, the Branchline "Blueprint" series rolling stock has some VERY nice (albeit delicate) detailing to them so I wouldn't necessarily consider them "low-end".
And - for me, Accurail and Bowser are a notch or two above Athearn BBs. Accurail's wood-braced boxcars and 41' gondolas - in particular - are quite nice and hardly low-end quality in my eyes.
MisterBeasley Here's a suggestion. MR should start something called "Kitbuilder's Bench." Every month, a staffer or perhaps a guest modeler builds a kit. It can be built just right from the directions, or customized to any degree. Painting and weathering, and upgrades to metal wheels and Kadees are all fair game. I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here, and say that high RTR prices can be a good thing. There are still very reasonably priced kits out there, and the hobby will benefit from more of us developing the kind of skills we get from kitbuilding so that we can keep creating unique, personalized models for our railroads.
bruce22 Personally I think there must be a demand for somewhat realistically detailed kits in the $20 range that fill the void created when the blue box type of kit dissppeared. If they are available please let me know.
Personally I think there must be a demand for somewhat realistically detailed kits in the $20 range that fill the void created when the blue box type of kit dissppeared. If they are available please let me know.
Really? You have never heard of Accurail, Bowser, or Branchline? Really?
Blue Box are/were junk. And there are still thousands around for resale if you really want them.
Get a craftsman kit from Funaro and Camerlengo or one of the other manufacturers and do some real modeling. More hours of hobby per dollar.
Old codgers whining about when bread was a nickel. Sheesh. I am old too but I recognize that times have changed.
BroadwayLion HIGH PRICES? Hah! Pepsi used to be 10c a can, and now is about $1.00 or more per can. The subway used to cost 15c (in my memory) and is now $2.50.Nickel candy bars are now 95cI remember gasoline at 31c a gallon, now you would do well to find it at 3.80 a gallon.Wine that I used to sell for $3.00 a bottle just 15 years ago is now $7.75,the average sale at my register used to be around $20.00, now it is at least $60.00. If you can spend $60.00 on wine that you will consume this week, I see nothing wrong with a $40.00 box car that you will keep for a life time.Atheran Blu-box cars were $4.00 modern cars are $40.00. Frankly I do not see any difference. Every thing has gone up ten-fold. Qvit ur whining, and pay da tab. ROAR PS... Living in a sheltered environment, such as I do, prices "out there" always seem to shock me. They are what they are.
The Lion is correct, adjusted for inflation model trains are no more expensive than they ever were.
If you want more - make more money.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The Lion is correct, adjusted for inflation model trains are no more expensive than they ever were. If you want more - make more money. Sheldon
Karl
NCE über alles!
alco_fan...Blue Box are/were junk......
That's a pretty harsh assessment of something which is probably responsible for a good portion of the modellers here being in this hobby at all. That many have moved beyond those early days doesn't diminish that contribution, nor devalue the opportunities available to new modellers who choose to seek an inexpensive entry into the hobby.
alco_fan.... And there are still thousands around for resale if you really want them.....
That's certainly true, and many of the same models, albeit with better paint and lettering and r-t-r, are also available new, with, of course, new pricing.
Athearn Blue Box is the second-most prevalent brand on my layout (behind Accurail), with about half of them pretty-much "stock" save for paint and lettering. The other half gave me a lot of modelling enjoyment and learning experiences, all at a very reasonable cost.I could replace those unmodified Athearn hoppers with a nicer version from Accurail (kits - about $550.00, plus couplers, paint, and lettering) or splurge on Kadee's undecorated but r-t-r version (for about $1330.00 plus paint and lettering - at least they'd already have the couplers). Another option would be to re-detail the cars I have (probably around $100.00 for an awful lot of grabirons and a bunch of #79 drill bits) or simply leave them as-is. Let's just say I'm not in a mood to bash the Athearn Blue Box cars.
Wayne
Just call me an ''Old Geezer'' but my years in the hobby came from the building part of it, whether it be, trains, trucks, model cars and ships. I receieved more sastisfaction and fun building them, then playing with them, regardless of time involved. If anything, that is what is dying in the Hobby, A lot of people have this, I want it now attitude. Just My Old man Opinion. Please don't say, I don't have the time.
doctorwayneI could replace those unmodified Athearn hoppers with a nicer version from Accurail (kits - about $550.00, plus couplers, paint, and lettering) or splurge on Kadee's undecorated but r-t-r version (for about $1330.00 plus paint and lettering - at least they'd already have the couplers). Another option would be to re-detail the cars I have (probably around $100.00 for an awful lot of grabirons and a bunch of #79 drill bits) or simply leave them as-is. Whistling
Wayne,
Are you on something?...Or did you slip a couple of digits? I'm glad I don't pay those sorts of prices for Accurail kits. Makes those new Athearn Genesis RTRs dirt cheap.
[Edit: Okay, Wayne, on 2nd read through I'm guessing you are talking about what the cost would be if your replaced ALL the Accurail hoppers you currently have in your roster?]
Hmmmm, 40 bucks? well I'm on my way to a train show with my $20.00 and will return with 4 or 5 cars that are worth $1,000 of enjoyment, keep on choochin'
tstage.....[Edit: Okay, Wayne, on 2nd read through I'm guessing you are talking about what the cost would be if your replaced ALL the Accurail hoppers you currently have in your roster?
Yeah, the first amount is to replace unmodified Athearn hoppers with Accurail, and the second to replace them instead with the Kadee cars. Even if I had the money, I'm not sure I'd want to spend the time doing the paint and lettering (they're for one of my free-lanced roads). After all, even as unmodified Athearn BB cars, they seem to be "good-enough" for the service they're in.
zstripe Just call me an ''Old Geezer'' but my years in the hobby came from the building part of it, whether it be, trains, trucks, model cars and ships. I receieved more sastisfaction and fun building them, then playing with them, regardless of time involved. If anything, that is what is dying in the Hobby, A lot of people have this, I want it now attitude. Just My Old man Opinion. Please don't say, I don't have the time. Frank
I don't have the time.