mlehmanMore generally, But, really, a two-page pity-party about the persecution of DC users? The victimhood fits like a hair shirt and is obviously just as itchy. As a converted-to-DCC but still uses DC from time to time, it would be good if we all quit treating the DC vs DCC thing as something like politics or religion. Just because the other guy gets power to his train differently than you says nothing about your choices and your opinion there says nothing about the other person's choice. There's only reasons, some good, some bad, some just because folks are old and set in their ways. That's life, like anything else. Most of the choices we make have no moral value nor do they reflect on whether one is a "real model railroader" or not or whether the choices you made carry any weight with someone else and their situation -- although the tone some take in discussing such things is alternatively fraught with insecurity and superiority. It's not better or worse than anyone elses's choices, it's just you.
But, really, a two-page pity-party about the persecution of DC users? The victimhood fits like a hair shirt and is obviously just as itchy.
As a converted-to-DCC but still uses DC from time to time, it would be good if we all quit treating the DC vs DCC thing as something like politics or religion. Just because the other guy gets power to his train differently than you says nothing about your choices and your opinion there says nothing about the other person's choice. There's only reasons, some good, some bad, some just because folks are old and set in their ways. That's life, like anything else. Most of the choices we make have no moral value nor do they reflect on whether one is a "real model railroader" or not or whether the choices you made carry any weight with someone else and their situation -- although the tone some take in discussing such things is alternatively fraught with insecurity and superiority. It's not better or worse than anyone elses's choices, it's just you.
There is your voice of reason above. We don't have to make this a right or wrong thing, us or them, or lonely DC hearts club. There is really no good outcome to these topics other than to continue to stir up the feelings of justifying why you do what you do or have what you have. For some reason people feel they need to "poke the bear" and revive these historically contentious topics rather than just enjoy what they have.
There is an old saying but some people still do it: Don't poke the bear!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I just don't understand why folks feel they have to justify what they are doing that has brought them enjoyment and why others feel they have to convert them to their way of doing things.
Joe
I'm not, just got a new (transformer) power pack, just what is DC-3 anyway?? and is it REALLY necessary?
tatans I'm not, just got a new (transformer) power pack, just what is DC-3 anyway?? and is it REALLY necessary?
The Douglas DC-3 is a fixed-wing propeller-driven airliner. No longer necessary in this jet age, but still in use.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain tatans I'm not, just got a new (transformer) power pack, just what is DC-3 anyway?? and is it REALLY necessary? The Douglas DC-3 is a fixed-wing propeller-driven airliner. No longer necessary in this jet age, but still in use. Rich
Actually very necessary in some places due to its low stall speed and low takeoff speed which allow it to takeoff and land on grass or dirt in relatively short distances - by comparison, most all jets are flying bricks that need long smooth runways.
But what do I know, my trains don't have any brains.
Sheldon
shoot, I'd rather ride in a "Skytrain" than a darn boeing 777 dreamliner anyday.
then again, I could learn to fly myself. just didn't do so hot on the trial flight.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
DC at home and DCC at the club. When I got back into the hobby after a 20 year hiatus I restarted with what I knew. If I had to do it over I'd have gone DCC but that's hindsight. I'll also go DCC when I build my next layout but that won't happen for a while. And part of the reason I'd change is to standardize what I use at the club and what I use at home. It's all about finding what makes sense for you.
ATLANTIC CENTRALActually very necessary in some places due to its low stall speed and low takeoff speed which allow it to takeoff and land on grass or dirt in relatively short distances - by comparison, most all jets are flying bricks that need long smooth runways.
LION has fluen on a DC-3 : From Yokota AFB to Sasebo NAS. As per requirements, it was a US flag carrier, but with a 100% Japanese crew. Per the announcement "We will be landing in Sasebo in 2 hours, 34 minutes and 17 seconds"
(Unlike AMTK "Well we should be there sometime tomorrow."
ROARING
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Still DC cab control it works well easy to wire not hard to understand. I have lots of great performing Hobbytown units some Alco models and redball brass units and my share of newer plastic DC engines. It is not worth the time or money to convert all those units they perform well as is. thes brass has had motors replaced by can motors as have some of the Hobbytowns. The Hobbytowns with open frame Dc 70 motors have had their magnets replaced bt the super magnets.
I have a half dozen Bachmann RS3s and F7s with sound running with on DC . My Contrlmaster 20s run those very well. A couple of the GP7s sound equpped DC units will finish my sound roster. I have a couple of the old Soundtraxx DC IR220 throttles MUed and hooked up to speakers, which are fun. Sometimes I have I found too much sound a distraction.
If I was just starting out I would consider DCC but not after almost 50 years of adding equipment to my roster am I going to change.
Ron High
So far 31 poeple replying they still use DC in some form for some or all of their modeling. Only a couple of them indicated an interest in changing over in the future.
And a bunch of comedy from some DCC users, a much smaller count interestingly enough.
Remember, something is not obsolete if it still does what the user needs and wants it to do.
They are just now replacing the relay based signal system on the B&O portions of CSX - a signal system installed in the 1920's
Custom mill work shops all over the country still make wood moldings and flooring for your home with machines made in 1895.
My 17 year old GRAVELY gear drive tractor, who's original design dates to the early 1970's, will drag your hydro drive late model John Deere around by the rear hitch not even knowing it is there.
Newer is not automaticly better, nor best for everyones needs.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd a bunch of comedy from some DCC users, a much smaller count interestingly enough.
Maybe because most DCC users are perfectly fine if you choose DC for your own personal reasons and preferences. I made my choice; others make theirs - I'm fine with that. It's not like it's a life-altering experience.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy 17 year old GRAVELY gear drive tractor, who's original design dates to the early 1970's, will drag your hydro drive late model John Deere around by the rear hitch not even knowing it is there.
Good argument, everyone knows that value of a lawn mower is based on its pulling capabilities.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo far 31 poeple replying they still use DC in some form for some or all of their modeling. Only a couple of them indicated an interest in changing over in the future. And a bunch of comedy from some DCC users, a much smaller count interestingly enough. Remember, something is not obsolete if it still does what the user needs and wants it to do.
Sheldon,
I don't see a popularity context, election, poll or whatever. I saw lots of folks who considered DCC and just didn't need it or had a large DC collection that was a factor. Nothing at all unusual in that and certainly nothing judgmental one way or the other about the benefits or drawbacks of either.
I also saw a fairly large number of "dual use" users. In other words, it was nothing like DC vs DCC, more like "this is what I do..." -- which seems to be a far more productive thing than trying to score points at anyone's expense, counting coup, or whatever.
And you're the only one who used the word "obsolete"...
Is there some particular significance about the idea of obsolesence you want to elaborate on beyond lawn mowers? I've always found it didn't matter how new or old a mower was, the main thing that mattered was whether the blade was sharp or not.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike, I agree, it is not a popularity contest, and the dual users prove the point that I have been making for years - there is no one BEST system for every person or every application.
Respectfully,
I don't think you were around here years ago when I, and others, took a lot of abuse for taking about DC, and in my case, my control system, and trying to explain why it was better for me than DCC. It was as if I should not talk about my DC advanced cab control because it might stop someone from switching to DCC?
The tone of this whole control system topic is much better on here these days than it was a few years ago. But I cannot help but believe that if people like me, Chuck, Dr Wayne, and Fred W never spoke up, there would still be a lot of condesending "if you just try it", "you are just backwards or tech shy" kinds of comment like 4 years ago on here.
Short sidebar on the tractor issue - It is not just a "lawn mower", it does lots more and does it very well. It has pushed 30" snow falls off my 7,000 sq foot driveway, it can plow/till gardens, jocky a boat or other trailer, dethatch the lawn, vacuum leaves from the yard, and so on. It was designed to last and work well for a long time. In the time I have owned it my neighbor has been through five "lawn mowers".
The point is simple, once you invest in something of quality that does what you need, it makes no sense to replace it just because something "new" comes along. Here are some pictures of the tractor taken recently - remember it is 17 years old:
It will likely last the rest of my lifetime and beyond with minimal service - many of these from the 70's are still going strong. Same with my control system, it is based in simple older technology, it does everything I want, I'm not replacing it. Clearly more than a few others feel the same way. Sheldon
It will likely last the rest of my lifetime and beyond with minimal service - many of these from the 70's are still going strong.
Same with my control system, it is based in simple older technology, it does everything I want, I'm not replacing it. Clearly more than a few others feel the same way.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't think you were around here years ago when I, and others, took a lot of abuse for taking about DC, and in my case, my control system, and trying to explain why it was better for me than DCC. It was as if I should not talk about my DC advanced cab control because it might stop someone from switching to DCC?
Times change. People move on. I've been around the forum for awhile and yeah, some folks just won't let a bone go, they want to keep chewing on it. Recently, I've detected no signs of a "war on DC" -- and I suspect it was only a tiny minority of users on the forum who had any interest in debating you on the finer points of DC control.
That said, I'd suggest it's rather unproductive to treat all DCC or DC questions that come up as the possible reheating of that passe war, where we all need to rush out and salute whatever flag we owe allegiance to. Most folks "use what they brung" ---- and if they want a debate on DC vs DCC they clearly state that, as so many newbie inquiries have here over the years.
I also suspect that most DC users have realtively little interest in advanced DC concepts. The theme seems to be, "I use DC because it's simple, straightforward, and does what I need it to do." Sure, DC can do most things DCC can do and vice verse. And if you throw enough time, money and effort at either a DC or DCC installtion it'll do whatever you want.
Most folks just want to run trains.
Heck, you even ask DCC users and most of them, not so surprisingly, say pretty much the same thing -- they choose DCC for simplicity. A contradiction? Nope, it's a lot like choosing which color of socks to put on in the morning. You pick 'em and don't worry about it any more.
Just moved to a new state,in the process of buying a new house, but when I finally do start on a layout it will undoubtedly be regular DC with maybe a small branch somewhere on it to give DCC a try. I just have a huge number of locos, RTR, Kit, and cross kit I've accumulated over the last almost 60 years, maybe 10 of which have dual mode DCC. And I've got a number of commercial and home built momentum/braking throttles that will be much cheaper to use than to go through the expense of buying a DCC throttle system, and over 100 decoders. I have other ideas for electronics for my future, and probably last, layout.
Without our DC brethren leading the way, we may never have had DCC to come along.
I say, live and let live.
There is room for everybody in this hobby.
As has been well documented in tha past, I run analog DC, with a somewhat different take on Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system than the one Sheldon uses. It meets my simple needs (on a relatively complex double garage filler) and does things with resistors and cheap diodes that require a computer interface with other control systems.
I'm happy to see that the folks who thought DCC was the new religion seem to have mellowed out. I model a prototype from the far side of a rather wide ocean, (a narrow gauge prototype that has, and needs, a comprehensive signal system) so I am unlikely to be interchanging cars or running my non-HO locomotives on other model railroads. How my nearest model railroading neighbor runs his railroad has no impact on me, and vice versa. That strikes me as a good thing.
Some time ago I promised not to try to convert anyone to my version of MZL. That promise still holds.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)