MTH VS BLI--ARE WE AT WAR?

[twhite]

Just got the new MR, looking through the ads, I find a full-page one from BLI for their new die-cast HO Pennsy K-4 with all sorts of new goodies from their Platinum line. Midway through the issue, I find another full-page ad from MTH about THEIR new die-cast HO Pennsy K-4 with all sorts of new goodies since it's their debut loco in HO. Looks like identical new goodies to me. Are we at war, suddenly? Does this mean that the Genesis/Lionel Challenger debate will soon be superceded as BLI and MTH go at it tooth, nail, sword, armor and epigram? What do you think?

[cacole]

MTH products seem to be a case where you have to carefully read between the lines. Their advertising claim is that their locomotive will operate with "any DC power supply, DCC controller or MTH's own DCS command system." What they don't tell us is, do all of their sound effects, smoke, and other "features" operate PROPERLY with a DC power supply or DCC controller other than their own DCS system. It's my belief that their DCS system is not the same as an NMRA-compliant DCC system, so I will not even consider purchasing an MTH product until I see and hear one operate on some system other than their proprietary DCS.

[Fergmiester]

Finally some competition, maybe this will mean competitive prices!!
We can only hope!

[orsonroy]

It means Athearn and Trix will be coming out with THEIR K-4 models any day now...

[Anonymous]

Could their strategy be to go head to head with BLI, because they think that they have a better product??
Mark
http://webusers.warwick.net/~u1015590/

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Finally some competition, maybe this will mean competitive prices!!
We can only hope!

I don't think so Fergie, not on this one. The MTH price is about $100 (US) more than BLI. Then in order to access all of the extra featuers that you have paid for, you need to add in the MTH DCS system for another $400.

Personally I think there is score being settled with all of this. MTH is angry with BLI for other reasons, and part of me thinks that is the major reason for them getting into HO at all.

[Anonymous]

I don't have any mth products, but I just purchased a bli loco
and it blows my bachman and athern genesis locos away.

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Finally some competition, maybe this will mean competitive prices!!
We can only hope!

BLI prices are ALREADY incredibly low for what you get.

Consider the Atlas Trainmaster with QSI sound as an example. t the train show this weekend, the non-sound version was $85. Plus $20 for a decoder, you are at $105. The SOUND version was goign for $185. You can;t buy a sound decoder and speaker ANYWHERE for $80. Unless you count the HORRIBLE MRC one, or the other one that is not polyphonic.

Or consider the typical 'street' price for the BLI PRR T1, about $339. The only other place to get a T1 outside of brass is a Bowser. And that's a kit, plus even with all the superdetail kits doesn't come CLOSE to the level of detail in the BLI. ANd let's not even discuss running quality. Plus the cost of a paint job. You'd be almost at the price level of the BLI and still not have sound in the Bowser!

Frankly, I'm amazed at how BLI can do what they do for the prices they offer their locos at. My father in law has a GG1 and ir looks awesome and runs great. If he can find a buyer for his Bowser T1 he would drop it in a heartbeat and get a BLI T1.

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Finally some competition, maybe this will mean competitive prices!!
We can only hope!

I don't think so Fergie, not on this one. The MTH price is about $100 (US) more than BLI. Then in order to access all of the extra featuers that you have paid for, you need to add in the MTH DCS system for another $400.

Personally I think there is score being settled with all of this. MTH is angry with BLI for other reasons, and part of me thinks that is the major reason for them getting into HO at all.

OK my question then becomes why would someone go the extra $400? Is MTH that much better? Or is this one of those "I must Have" issues?

As much as I like the sound and look of the high end stuff it's like any high maintenance item. It 'll ruin you in the end!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Finally some competition, maybe this will mean competitive prices!!
We can only hope!

I don't think so Fergie, not on this one. The MTH price is about $100 (US) more than BLI. Then in order to access all of the extra featuers that you have paid for, you need to add in the MTH DCS system for another $400.

Personally I think there is score being settled with all of this. MTH is angry with BLI for other reasons, and part of me thinks that is the major reason for them getting into HO at all.

OK my question then becomes why would someone go the extra $400? Is MTH that much better? Or is this one of those "I must Have" issues?

As much as I like the sound and look of the high end stuff it's like any high maintenance item. It 'll ruin you in the end!

That is a very good question Fergie, and that may be what makes or breaks MTH on this. They developed their DCS system as a response to not being to license Lionel's TMCC system for 3 rail O. All of the fancy stuff may not really be of much interest to the HO market.

It is going to be up to consumers as to whether these extra features are going to be a must have. A simple cost benefit analysis tells me NO if I was in DCC already. If I wasn't, I may still say no based on all of the issues.

Somewhere along the line MTH got the idea that a lot of cool electronics would help sell trains. I'm not sure that is the case, as it makes them a lot more expensive and complicated to repair.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Just got the new MR, looking through the ads, I find a full-page one from BLI for their new die-cast HO Pennsy K-4 with all sorts of new goodies from their Platinum line. Midway through the issue, I find another full-page ad from MTH about THEIR new die-cast HO Pennsy K-4 with all sorts of new goodies since it's their debut loco in HO. Looks like identical new goodies to me. Are we at war, suddenly? Does this mean that the Genesis/Lionel Challenger debate will soon be superceded as BLI and MTH go at it tooth, nail, sword, armor and epigram? What do you think?

I think Napoleon has just invaded Russia, and winter is coming.[:0][;)]

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Just got the new MR, looking through the ads, I find a full-page one from BLI for their new die-cast HO Pennsy K-4 with all sorts of new goodies from their Platinum line. Midway through the issue, I find another full-page ad from MTH about THEIR new die-cast HO Pennsy K-4 with all sorts of new goodies since it's their debut loco in HO. Looks like identical new goodies to me. Are we at war, suddenly? Does this mean that the Genesis/Lionel Challenger debate will soon be superceded as BLI and MTH go at it tooth, nail, sword, armor and epigram? What do you think?

I think Napoleon has just invaded Russia, and winter is coming.[:0][;)]

Now Elliot, you're double posting again you've got you star quota so behave! So to keep this a serious post I'll add this.

And I'm serious now.... seriously....

What does MTH give us above all the other DCC/sound systems? And don't tell me "More Bells & Whistles" !

Regards
Fergie

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

Finally some competition, maybe this will mean competitive prices!!
We can only hope!

I don't think so Fergie, not on this one. The MTH price is about $100 (US) more than BLI. Then in order to access all of the extra featuers that you have paid for, you need to add in the MTH DCS system for another $400.

Personally I think there is score being settled with all of this. MTH is angry with BLI for other reasons, and part of me thinks that is the major reason for them getting into HO at all.

Hello BigBoy,

Perhaps there may be some "ego issues" involved, but it seems more that after all these years, MTH saw the HO DCC market growing exponentially. Look at how far it has come in just 5 years!! So basically Mr. Wolfe and company saw potential in the market and decided to adapt their system for it.

Too bad that in the process they decided to try to come into it like a Sherman Tank and blast themselves in the foot during the process! So far the MTH response forum has been 12 pages consisting of many "shockwave ripples".

As far as products, are modelers willing to fork over an extra $100 or more for the extra features? As a consumer, I'm a big believer in not rushing to buy a brand new Product Line until it's been on the market at least a year. History has proven that even with testing, products still come through with glitches.

Remember, BLI had problems in the beginning with their GG1 and their steamers? After working hard with the manufacturer for over a year, Broadway Limited produced locomotives that now, for the most part, are pretty reliable, run smoothly, have dynamic sound qualities and are even available at discount prices in hobby shops and on the web. From a practical standpoint Broadway seems to have a "Win-win" advantage. The
fair thing to do would be an actual side by side comparison which will occur soon according to Jerry.

If MTH loses the suit then this war, if any, would quickly freeze in its tracks!
IMHO the sad outcome of the MTH situation is that managers from the DCC manufacturers will likely push forward with product development and improvement but with much more caution than ever.

[Anonymous]

I don't but BLI because It is to expensive and they don't have a whole lot that I can't get cheaper from other companys. Sure they may have great sound and detail, but when you have a budget like mine, you have to settle with Athearn, Bachmann, and Life like P2K. I don't care about the MTH K-4 because I don't like the pensy. I think manufactures should produce some small to medium size locos in plenty of road names. many of these steamers are to specfic and come in only a few road names. we need more stuff that can be aplied to more than one road... BLI produces alot of high dollar locos that are meant for cetain roads. what if we don't model those roads ? I think that they should follow Athearn's Genisis Steam..Realistic, Detailed and Good Quality, but more applicabel to other roads. more General. does anyone agree ?

[Anonymous]

MTH has a lawsuit coming up from QSI for using some of QSI's patents in their DCS system. Andy admitted this in a former thread. As Elliot said, I think Mike wants to do anything he can to put QSI out of business.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Oklahoma Train Nut
I think manufactures should produce some small to medium size locos in plenty of road names.

Definitely! So far, only IHC and Bachmann are supporting the small to mid-sized steam category (I'd add Roundhouse if I was sure their steam kit line will come back). I'd absolutely love it if BLI and P2K really went nuts and started releasing engines smaller than Mikes.

QUOTE:
many of these steamers are too specfic and come in only a few road names. we need more stuff that can be aplied to more than one road... BLI produces alot of high dollar locos that are meant for cetain roads. what if we don't model those roads ? I think that they should follow Athearn's Genisis Steam..Realistic, Detailed and Good Quality, but more applicabel to other roads. more General. does anyone agree ?

Actually, I don't agree with you there. Steam, by the very nature of how it was designed and bought, was VERY specific to certain roads. The USRA, Harriman, AMC and NYC-designed engines (as well as "catalog" engines) only really amount to a small percentage of the overall number of American, Canadian and Mexican steamers built. Bachmann, Athearn, BLI and P2K have pretty much tapped out the USRA series of engines, so what's left? Looking at how well BLI is selling steamers, it's obvious that road-specific steam DOES sell well. True, BLI is playing it safe for now by producing engines for popular roads (ATSF, UP, NYC, PRR), but I'm sure they'll someday come out with steam for less popular roads like the CB&Q, IC, Reading, etc. It'll just take some time.

What I'd REALLY like to see the steam manufacturers come out with are smaller Consolidations and Mikes, as well as larger Americans and Ten Wheelers. Basically any sort of engine built between 1900-1917.

[the-big-blow]

I really am hoping that MTH does a 3 Unit Gas turbine.

[Anonymous]

Okie:

Don't say "when you have a budget like mine, you have to settle with Athearn, Bachmann, and Life like P2K." I love my Athearn, Bachmann and Life Like P2K's [don't forget the P1Ks!]. Given their price, they are fantastic runners. And should you decide to go DCC and Sound, well there's lots of decoders out there and Soundtraxx. If something is within my budget, gives me value for the money I spent and makes me smile - well, I don't consider that "settling."

Of course when I when the big lottery - BLI better stand by for a heck of an order!! [But I'll still be running my other stuff too!!].

Dave

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

Looks like identical new goodies to me. Are we at war, suddenly? Does this mean that the Genesis/Lionel Challenger debate will soon be superceded as BLI and MTH go at it tooth, nail, sword, armor and epigram? What do you think?

Did you see the ads in the new MR. Front of the BLI K-4 looks pretty good.

The MTH model looks like tinplate.

Sorry, Mike. BLI looks to be way ahead.

[rrinker]

I'd like to see a SIDE shot of the BLI model. The side shot of the MTH one is the shot that made me go "Oh, tinplate" because of the HUGE gap above the trailing truck. It looks like the firebox is just floating there. Even the Spectrum K4 is better in that regard.

[Don Gibson]

RRINKER:

"polyphonic" ???

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

I'd like to see a SIDE shot of the BLI model.

Check out Broadway's website...they posted pics yesterday of the K4. IMHO it looks a LOT better than what is shown in the MTH ad in MR...

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

RRINKER:

"polyphonic" ???

literally "many sounds" as in, you can blow the whistle and the chuffing keeps going, and the bell keeps ringing, if it's polyphonic. The cheapy soound decoders thus far are not, so the chuffing stops while you blow the whistle, and then starts when you let off.

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wes454

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

I'd like to see a SIDE shot of the BLI model.

Check out Broadway's website...they posted pics yesterday of the K4. IMHO it looks a LOT better than what is shown in the MTH ad in MR...

Wow! Agreed! That looks gorgeous! Too bad I don't model the PRR. Although my father in law does..I'll have to show him those pictures.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

On their O-gauge locomotives MTH has decided that ALL O-gaugers want opening smokebox doors- therefore most of their O-gauge steamers feature grossly oversized smokebox door hinges to allow this "feature". These were what put me off when I closely inspected the MTH PRR K4 and G5 at York a few years ago. From what I can see in the views of the new MTH HO gauge K4 smokebox front, the same oversized hinges are there, and I presume this is to allow an opening smokebox door there too. Why doesn't MTH realize that HO gaugers want realistic details, not tinplate-like features. And I also noted the afore-mentioned gap between the firebox and the trailing truck. Ridiculous!
Cheers- Richard W.

[twhite]

I see we're already at war to some degree. Napoleon has indeed invaded Russia and winter's coming. Of course, who is Napoleon and who is Russia may soon be decided upon the Great Playing Field of purchases and orders, right? What I'm wondering, is after the K-4 (which I like as a prototype loco, by the way) are MTH and BLI going to continue to go head to head with other duplicate models? Since steam locomotives are such an individual choice--and they were among prototype railroads despite common wheel arrangements--there should be plenty of room for individual prototype locos from quite a few railroads, rather than "Okay, you do a ------------(enter your choice) and we'll do one too with more goodies. I hate to think that this is where we might end up going, especially since suddenly there's such interest among manufacturers in producing really GOOD steam models, these days. We don't need duplicates, we need more prototypes. Or am I having a sudden attack of Pollyanna?

[Roadtrp]

No offense, but you guys are FREAKING NUTS!!

You act all high and mighty and complain about teens carrying on about the UP licensing thing, and then you get FAR WORSE with this whole MTH thing.

Get over it. As with the UP issue, the market will decide who wins. All the moaning and groaning on these boards will make absolutely no difference.

Get out of your basement every once in awhile and take in the real world. Worry about something IMPORTANT, like the Twins losing to the Yankees in the 12th inning.

[;)]

I really like all you guys, and you've given me great advice at times. But this whole MTH thing seems like something 12 year olds should be arguing about, not grown men.

Just my .02...

I know I'm just a rookie and don't know squat. It just seems really silly to me.

[:)]

[LuthierTom]

orsonroy, you need to come clean the coffee off of my monitor now! [:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twhite

I see we're already at war to some degree. Napoleon has indeed invaded Russia and winter's coming. Of course, who is Napoleon and who is Russia may soon be decided upon the Great Playing Field of purchases and orders, right? What I'm wondering, is after the K-4 (which I like as a prototype loco, by the way) are MTH and BLI going to continue to go head to head with other duplicate models? Since steam locomotives are such an individual choice--and they were among prototype railroads despite common wheel arrangements--there should be plenty of room for individual prototype locos from quite a few railroads, rather than "Okay, you do a ------------(enter your choice) and we'll do one too with more goodies. I hate to think that this is where we might end up going, especially since suddenly there's such interest among manufacturers in producing really GOOD steam models, these days. We don't need duplicates, we need more prototypes. Or am I having a sudden attack of Pollyanna?

Not to worry, MTH is Napoleon, and the HO market is Russia. The battle may be short, as the little tyrant has over estimated his army's strength, and under estimated the size of the land, and the power of winter. It will be a long cold walk back to France.[:0][;)]

Antonio, if Mike REALLY wanted to get into HO, he could have simply come out with a DCC engine. After all, DCC isn't patented. But, where's the fun in that?[}:)][:0][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

No offense, but you guys are FREAKING NUTS!!

You act all high and mighty and complain about teens carrying on about the UP licensing thing, and then you get FAR WORSE with this whole MTH thing.

Get over it. As with the UP issue, the market will decide who wins. All the moaning and groaning on these boards will make absolutely no difference.

Get out of your basement every once in awhile and take in the real world. Worry about something IMPORTANT, like the Twins losing to the Yankees in the 12th inning.

[;)]

I really like all you guys, and you've given me great advice at times. But this whole MTH thing seems like something 12 year olds should be arguing about, not grown men.

Just my .02...

I know I'm just a rookie and don't know squat. It just seems really silly to me.

[:)]

Jerry, please come to the coffee shop and join us for some fun and interesting conversation. Topics such as this are model railroading's version of politics. By the way, we've been talking baseball over there too. [swg]