The new Bachmann DCC limits-pro or con?

[rrinker]

finally found a web site with some details on this system. After reading that, I stand by anything I said, and most of what the others said, in the other thread. The Bachmann system is HUGELY limited, as in, if you have a basic oval 4x8 layout you might be happy with it, but for any serious operation, froget it.

It appears to be like MRC's previous system, in that it addresses the locomotives as 1-10. Sounds simple but then you have to remember that GP-35 #3521 is actually number 3 on the controller. Ok, I see in the pictures there is space to write it in.

It appears that is only has a 1 amp power supply. Sure the controller can handle 10 locomotives, but the power supply can't. Of course, the power supply with most every DCC system can't run as many locos as the system is capable of.

You may not be able to run 10 locomotives at a time (I can't either) all by yourself, but what if you OWN more than 10 locomotives? Since the bachmann system only addresses 10 (looks like 9 plus 1 analog, actually), you'll have to only put certain ones on the track at a time, or provide sidings with power toggles to isolate some of them.

It appears the Bachmann system only controls F0-F8. This imposes limitations on operating sound locomotives, at least BLI (and any other QSI-equipped units like Lionel and the new Atlas and P2K units) and Soundtraxx. The QSI-equipped units are ready to run under DC or DCC controla nd so would probably be popular with a DCC beginner who might want to operate with all the features but not have the skill to install sound in a loco. I'll grant that other starter systems also do not control past F8 OUT OF THE BOX. Add on accessories to expand the systems DO give these capabilities.

My main gripe is that these attempts to 'simplify' DCC have up til now resulted in systems that take shortcuts and remove many of the advantages of DCC. Maybe it doesn't matter for the users with really small layouts, but for anyone beyond that stage it does. I'm all for getting more people into DCC, but at the espense of generatign yet another frustrated would-be modeler? No thanks. It's sort of liek train sets. Sure, you can get a cheap Bachmann or Life-Like train set with track and power pack for less than just one P2K or Stewart locomotive, and since all you have to do it take it out of the box and put it on the rails, it's definitely easier to use. But how many people but those train sets only to be frustrated by poor running, track that doesn't stay together, cars that derail, etc., and just toss it all in the trash and miss out on all the things this hobby has to offer?

[bcammack]

I'm excited about it. First, it's cheap, as in affordable, as in "what the heck, I'll give it a try!" I don't need the sun and moon and stars in a DCC system. I need something cheap to try and see if DCC is for me.

The problem with the Prodigy wasn't it's lack of expandability. The problem with the Prodigy was the lack of value at it's price-point. It'd be a great value at $50 or $60, like the new Bachmann EZ-command is, street-price. At that price you can turn it over for $20 or give it to somebody when you decide to move up or go back to DC and not feel like you got ripped off. For $120 bucks, it's too big a commitment for the feature set and you can't recoup anything near that selling it used.

I don't think it's reasonable to complain that the new 1960 Volkswagen Beetle doesn't go as fast or hold as many people as the 1960 Coupe de Ville..

[Anonymous]

I would think anyone that can afford 10 BLI locos wouldn't have a problem spending $500 on a DCC system. I have 10 locos(6 P2K, 4 Athearn), and combined, they cost me about $300. All my freight cars are either Athearn or MDC kits, on sale at around $4 each. My entire yard of engines and rolling stock costs less than a Trix Big Boy, so affordability is key with me. I do not have sound or fancy toots and whistles. I just want to be able to MOVE my 10 locos for now. This seems like a good way to get wired and operating. Later, when the budget can afford more, I could sell (or give away) the Bachmann system in favor of something with more features. I can't see how having a moderate sized layout with a simple DCC system is going to frustrate a would-be modeler. It may frustrate an experienced operator that has a full-basement sized layout with DCC turnouts and 25 locos with sound, but what is wrong with this setup for a beginner? As far as a small layout goes, are you talking about square footage, or features? Does it take more features to run 5 locos on a 12' X 30' single main line layout with 12 turnouts than it does a 4 X 8 layout with 12 turnouts?

[stanames]

Randy

I think you are comparing the Bachmann system to the wrong set of desired features. The Bachmann EZ Command appears to have a street price of about $70 or not much different than a good DC power pack.

When you compare the system to its competition it is far and away superior. Now you can get into DCC for about the same price as DC. Independent control of 10 DCC locomotives and 9 functions is pretty impressive for that cost.

And I also should note that Bachmann took the responsible step of seeking and achieving full NMRA Conformance.

When you compare the EZ Command to a top of the line NCE, Digitrax or Lenz system, its features are a tad shy but then I seriously doubt it is trying to compete in that market.

I have a 1500 feet of track on my large scale layout with 23 DCC locomotives. I generally operate with 30 amps of power. When I have an operating session with 10 or more engineers the current Bachmann offering is not up to the task. But then I doubt that I am the intended market.

Still I have hooked up the system to my layout and have fun operating when I am switching in the shed. Its quite an impressive system. By far the easiest to use and clearly the easiest to install.

The system is currently designed for a typically home layout. I have visited a lot and single operator layouts with less then 10 locomotives on the layout tend to predominate the market. Its great that finally a manufacturer has decided to develop a system for this market and I suspect that we will see many more things from Bachmann due to the inclusion of the expansion plug in the rear. I suspect they have a lot more in store for us.

If we are to see this hobby grow then we need to address both ends of the hobby. You do not grow future model railroaders if the price of entry is a top of the line system with top of the line locomotives. You grow the hobby with high quality equipment priced so that the average user can run multiple trains at the same time without an EE degree.

Stan Ames

[bcammack]

Heck, I just want to leave one locomotive idling on the siding while I use the other.

[Anonymous]

I like the E-Z command for these reasons

1) I don't plan to have 10 locos
2) even if i did, I would not have them all on the layout one time.
3) It is cheap !
4) It is simple !

If I do need a more advanced system down the road, I can just get one. I just want to wire the layout for DCC from the begining, rather than change it from DC to DCC later. I just don't have the money for a large system right now. The one question i have is this: Can I connect walk around thorrotels to it ?

[darth9x9]

I expect to keep at least 10 crews busy at one time. There will be several dozen trains in staging to keep things interesting.

BC

[davekelly]

Stan,

Glad to finally see a review of the Bachmann system. I'm glad you like it after comparing it to the others more "advanced" systems out there. My thought is I could buy the thing. Test out this DCC idea for a while and I don't like go back to DC or if I do, move up to one of the other systems. Bet I could get $20 or $30 for it on ebay. Much better idea than trying out a $300 system and then deciding I didn't like DCC. Heck, thanks to ebay it will cost me less to test out this DCC thing than taking the family to dinner and a movie. Thanks for posting your opinion!!

DAve

[cacole]

It's definitely a beginner's system for a small home layout -- not for a club by any stretch of the imagination.

[Anonymous]

Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury? Is "more" like buying a Ford Chateau Van now while you are single because you might get married and have a ton of kids later?

Also, to those that voted #1, you actually have that large of a home layout? This poll is for home layouts, not clubs, etc. Is it 100% yours, or is it a joint venture with other modelers, thereby making it more of a club style layout?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp

Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury?

Well, it all depends on those 5 locos, and how many of them you run at the same time. From what I've read, the Bachmann Easy-DCC is a 1 amp system, which can probably run at most 3-4 'modern' locos at the same time. If you have older, higher amperage locos, that number is lower. So if you're only running one or two single loco trains at a time, the Bachmann system may be all you need. Once you start consisting trains, the Bachmann system will run out of juice pretty quick.

At that point, you'd need to add a booster, and I don't think (though I may be wrong) that boosters are available that work with the Bachmann command station. In that case, it'd be time to put the Bachmann on eBay and invest in a bigger system.

I would have loved to have something like the Bachmann DCC system 10-12 years ago when I built my first 4x8 layout, since I never ran more than 2 locos at once. But with my new 7x9.5 u-shaped layout, I plan on running multi-loco consists, with trains passing in long sidings, local way freights, and at least one yard loco idling if not active while the other trains 'cruise' the mainline. I went with the Zephyr because of its expandability for the future, and because it has the power I need now to keep a couple of locos moving at least.

[Anonymous]

11 cabs, even more operators, and buku engines.
I cant even imagine life with Bachmanns limtations.[:p]

[Anonymous]

kbfcsme,
Is that your home layout?

Also, why does this thread have 174 views, but only 12 votes?? If it is being viewed, doesn't it take about 3 seconds to vote? Is the forum filled with lots of "armchair" railroaders that don't have layouts? This question/poll would apply to everybody that has a layout.

[CNJ831]

enduringexp - I think you have a highly valid point about armchair or wouldbe modelers dominate this forum. If one carefully reads through the various threads you all too often notice in answers to questions, statements like, "when I build my 50'x120' layout...", "the 60'x80' layout I'm planning...", or, "I have 6' completed on my 125' point-to-point layout so far."

The impression I get is that the majority of forum members are more talk than substance when it comes to personal experience in building a complete model railroad. This is also reflected in a great many of the replies to posted questions, which as someone else complained in another thread, are just talk for talk's sake and offer no actual information or help!

With regard in addressing specific questions concerning DCC system performance, the last figures I saw published indicated that only 15% or at most 20% of hobbyists operated with DCC. My guess would be that perhaps a third of these fully understand and can give valid advice on various systems. This is likely the reason for so many having read this thread but so few having commented on the question.

CNJ831

[pedromorgan]

i think i can give a small answer to that last point. i live in england where this page takes an eternity to load, an eternity to log in and an eternity to post a poll and an eternity to send this! (and yes i do have broadband!)

i would really like to get involved in dcc. however i am yet to find a system that i can adopt to do exactly what i want. i have about 100 locos and there can easily be 40 on the layout or in yards. so dcc would be great. however as someone pointed out earlyie, i cant possiably remember the adresses for 40+ locos. i want a column of loco numbers and descriptions (just like on the bachmann thing) but down the left i want 3 or 4 buttons with the throttle i am holding representing one of the buttons.

for example if i want to run my mallard and i have the red controller i can find mallard on the list and press the red button and control the loco across the whole layour from my wireless handset.

it is faily simple really i just havent figured out how to implement it yet. no need to remember adresses and evry loco can be left on the track and up to 4 can be controlled at any one time.
although as i write this ia am seeing limitations such as running in multiple could be a problem.

hmm perhaps i have to rethink this one!

Peter Morgan

i am now going to go and make a cup of T while i send this!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roadtrp]

I think the Bachmann system is a great system for beginners like me. I have no doubt that it will handle my three locomotives just fine!

I had not intended to look at DCC. Now after finding out about the Bachmann system, I plan to give it a try.

No offense, but do some of you know how danged elitist you sound?

[:)]

[Javern]

for beginners and small layouts it appears a good value, I for one am not interested in the numerous extra things the higher end systems can do, I want DCC control yet I'm more into scenery.

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pedromorgan

i think i can give a small answer to that last point. i live in england where this page takes an eternity to load, an eternity to log in and an eternity to post a poll and an eternity to send this! (and yes i do have broadband!)

i would really like to get involved in dcc. however i am yet to find a system that i can adopt to do exactly what i want. i have about 100 locos and there can easily be 40 on the layout or in yards. so dcc would be great. however as someone pointed out earlyie, i cant possiably remember the adresses for 40+ locos. i want a column of loco numbers and descriptions (just like on the bachmann thing) but down the left i want 3 or 4 buttons with the throttle i am holding representing one of the buttons.

for example if i want to run my mallard and i have the red controller i can find mallard on the list and press the red button and control the loco across the whole layour from my wireless handset.

it is faily simple really i just havent figured out how to implement it yet. no need to remember adresses and evry loco can be left on the track and up to 4 can be controlled at any one time.
although as i write this ia am seeing limitations such as running in multiple could be a problem.

hmm perhaps i have to rethink this one!

Peter Morgan

i am now going to go and make a cup of T while i send this!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can do mostly what you want with a computer and just about any of the DCC systems out there. But my question is, WHY? It does not seem easier to me to page through a list of locos and hit the red or blue button next to the engine I want to run, rather, it seems far easier to me to operate the all but the basic starter systems do - I want to run the locomotive with the number 572 on it, I just punch in 572. Nothering to remember, no pages of information, nothing. This is what bugs me about the bachmann and MRC starter systems (although at least Bachmann has provided space to write in what loco each button controls. Perfect so long as you never aquire more than 10. Having more than 10 locos is elitist? Please...). The original MRC Prodigy (not the new Prodigy Advanced) just had the dial to sleect 1 of 16 locos. On systems like that, you have to remember somehow that 4-6-0 #1843 is #5 ont he controller, and 2-4-0 #3281 is number 9, etc. I'm sorry, this does NOT make it easier for beginners. This same issue existed prior to DCC as well, when mst command systems were capable of 16 or 32 locos max, there was no easy way to use actual loco numbers rather than keep some sort of 'cheat sheet'. The ability of DCC to use the numbers right on the loco with no requirement for each address to be sequential (ie, you can skip around and use whatever you want) is probably one of the most revolutionary features, and certainly makes things easier to use.

[hminky]

It appears there is a paste on area where you write the locomotive the button controls, did any one look at the advertisements. I think it is a perfect small layout beginner system. Wholesale trains has it for $53 dollars, I am sure most people have that much invested in equipment and kits they will never use or build.
Just a thought
Harold
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp

Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury? Is "more" like buying a Ford Chateau Van now while you are single because you might get married and have a ton of kids later?

Also, to those that voted #1, you actually have that large of a home layout? This poll is for home layouts, not clubs, etc. Is it 100% yours, or is it a joint venture with other modelers, thereby making it more of a club style layout?

Since I voted in this poll, I think I'll chime in.

For starters, yes, I have a large home layout. Is it a joint venture with other modelers? That depends on your perspective. Very few people have the time, or the talents to complete a large home railroad in isolation. From a monetary aspect, I bought and paid for everything on the RR. From a work standpoint, I trade horsepower-hours with a few close friends. One of my friends is really good at kitbashing structures. I hate it. I'm real good at spray painting and scenery. I paint his motive power, and have sceniced part of his railway.

I've looked at the ad for Bachman's offerings. Intruiging, but definitely NOT for a large layout, or in my opinion, a medium sized layout. Here is why:

1. You can't walk around with your train. At least from the ad, it doesn't appear that this throttle will roam out of the range of its power tether.

2. 1 AMP simply isn't enough power. I've got some old Tenshodo and United articulateds with open frame motors to which I added DCC decoders, and they pull appx. 3/4 amp EACH under load. MU a couple of old Athearn diesels together, and you have hit the limit.

3. Point well taken about accessory decoders. I've wired my extension with NCE Switch-It decoders, as opposed to creating panels. The jury is still out on whether or not it was a wise move.

I'm not knocking Bachman's offerings, just giving my perspective on its limitations. I do however feel that there are better offerings out there, with more flexibility (and more expense) for those with medium sized layouts and larger.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

Originally posted by pedromorgan

Perfect so long as you never aquire more than 10. Having more than 10 locos is elitist? Please...).

Having more than 10 locos in not elitist. Saying that a system has no value because it does not accommodate more than 10 locos IS ELITIST.

There are many things used by the advanced modeler that I will never use. I don't discount the value of those things just because I will never use them. I believe the hobby has room for equipment appealing to all levels of experience and budget.

-Jerry

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