Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised what this thread turned into.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I e-mailed Pan Pastels concerning Tony's mention of "weathering kits". Got an answer in less than an hour. They are in the process of rolling out two weathering kits, one with earth tones and the other with soot and grime. It appears that Tony used a combination of colors that would come both kits. I an going to give this method a try.
Hi,
While the article was centered around a specific product, I just don't see what is all that unusual.
Pretty much all other articles center around a specific manufacturers offering of locos, track, cars, vehicles, structures, and so on. This article was only "different" in that it was about a weathering product.
And while the product used was a specific one, the techniques and other information herein could be useful in themselves.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
erosebud Now can we get back to ranting about those fiends at Testor?
Now can we get back to ranting about those fiends at Testor?
Now, there is a topic worthy of debate.
Rich
Alton Junction
I appreciate all the responses to my post. There is the usual percentage of ad hominem attacks and hyperbole, alas, but I'm grateful for the range of views expressed. Some of the posts lead me to suspect that I was making too narrow a point, which was--is--that a great deal of space, and the cachet of a well-known name in the hobby, were given over to a single product, when (and this is important) other avenues exist and are routinely used by the magazine.
I should think it unnecessary for me to say that I value the identification of specific products, and that I value the opinions of many contributors to the magazine, not least Tony Koester. It just struck me that a regular product review, a reference in Tony's monthly column, or the customary inset/sidebar listing product name, price, and so on would have sufficed. Presumably Neil (or whoever) saw it differently. I'm only reporting my reaction.
"Andre, I'm now all overcome with overcomeness, and have a little tear in one eye. "
So do I. I rode the "South Island Express" from Christchurch to Dunedin back in 1969. Those are gutsy little engines. Gotta get back to NZ for a mainline steam excursion.
Andre
wp8thsubI don't see the article as advertising in the slightest. The author developed a weathering technique that requires the Pan Pastel brand product and tailored the writing to it. There's no nefarious advertising purpose that I can see, just a satisfied user trying to present some information to help people.
Rob,As I mention on page 1 MR has done many infomercial articles over the years nothing new about that and a push in the right direction can help all.
KD couplers,metal wheels,DCC paint brands and other common things we use today had their infomercials.
So,why the fuss?
I dunno either.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
And I thought that "The Tall Poppy Syndrome " only existed, to my shame, here in New Zealand, don't feel too bad now.
andrechapelonEver seen a New Zealand Government Railways Ja 4-8-2 at speed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajbrv7HzxAQ
Andre, I'm now all overcome with overcomeness, and have a little tear in one eye.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Okay, getting away from the conspiracy theories for a moment, I have a question.
My impression of all the chalk and powder products is that it leaves the rolling stock susceptible to finger prints from handling, especially since there is normally not a finish spray coat of some product to seal it.
Does the new product have some properties that that will resist this?
Rich:
It's very simple. Some people can't stand NOT having their shorts in a knot!
Just maybe, and I mean JUST MAYBE, the stuff actually works! Certainly there are those who seem to think so! I'm going to buy some, maybe just to get the nay sayers upset!
Sorry, I can hear the moderator's teeth grinding already! My bad!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Geez, seems like much ado about nothing.
If you enjoyed the article, who cares about whether or not the weathering product was identified by brand name or how many times it was mentioned? Can you imagine if Tony said that the product he used to weather the loco was magnificent but never identified it by brand name?
And, who cares about whether it was a stand alone article in which the specific product was mentioned as opposed to naming the product in Trains of Thought? It is OK in one part of the magazine but not another part of the magazine to mention the product by brand name?
I don't get it.
Well stated Chuck, or perhaps the sour grapes in our bunch just don't realize how negative they appear.
Item one: The article on weathering was NOT Tony Koester's column. THAT appears on page 79, Trains of Thought Layout Planning: going fleet first. The article was a stand-alone, and could just as easily had the by-line Alfred E. Neumann.
Item two. Since "Pan Pastels" appears in the subhead (and every photo) the reader is very alert to it. What if, instead, the photos and article had said "Maybelline," would that have invalidated the technique? (At first glance, I interpreted the product as theatrical makeup.)
Item three. Tony Koester models NKP, just as I model JNR. You can safely assume that if I submit an article on weathering freight cars the cars will be four wheelers of 10 - 18 ton capacity. Also, while the photos show an NKP 2-8-4, the diagrams show a nice little Illinois Central 2-8-0.
Somehow I get the impression that there are a few among us who throw tomatos at Tony simply because he's willing to express strong opinions. If that's the standard, maybe I need to acquire a tomato-resistant storm cape...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Aah, finally some one else using my favorite weathering powder---common household dust! Nothing does a better job of dulling down the sheen on styrene plastic. Still, if color shading is wanted, then I reach for my box of Bragdon powders.
Don H.
Of course , when you receive products at no charge, for review, it makes it easier than if you have to go out and buy every new thing that comes down the pike. And also, i am sure they have a hefty budget for purchasing items required to complete each Layout, engine, rail car, building, or scenery item to compliment the articles in each issue.
If an individual had all this at his/her disposal, we all would have fantastic rail empires.
Most, like me, read these articles and try to find a cheaper alternative that we can afford.
James in Texas
Good grief, some crazy stuff going on around here...
One, since Tony models the NKP, and they had a lot of Berkshires, that's the kind of loco Tony has available to weather. Seems like a natural choice, and since steam loco weathering is generic enough for the same technique to be used on other models, why should we care if the loco in the article is an NKP Berkshire or something else?
Second, I belong to an e-mail group where Tony participates, and many of the members besides Tony have just been going ape over Pan Pastels for a long time. They have specific characteristics that make them more useful for weathering applications where other brands won't work at all the same way. Again, it made sense to use this brand for the article as it works very differently from other pastels. Following the discussions on the e-mails, it's pretty clear the brand matters and the article would be of much less use if it didn't mention this brand by name. The same holds true for everybody else involved in those discussions who are using this product.
I don't see the article as advertising in the slightest. The author developed a weathering technique that requires the Pan Pastel brand product and tailored the writing to it. There's no nefarious advertising purpose that I can see, just a satisfied user trying to present some information to help people.
Rob Spangler
I take it you never seen NKP 2-8-4 765 at speed?
What's not to like about those NKP Berks? They're sweet looking engines.
SCR
Engineman.
Ever seen a New Zealand Government Railways Ja 4-8-2 at speed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajbrv7HzxAQ
Now there's an engine Tony could have weathered and it would have had the distinct advantage of not being lettered for the NKP. You can buy kits for the things here: http://www.ironhorsehobbies.co.nz/ja-locomotive-s-scale-1-64-kitset.html
How about an ex-GWR "Castle" in full cry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4r5SklgMCU
Ever heard a rebuilt "Merchant Navy" working? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg1ah0l_9p4 If it sounds as if the exhaust is too fast for the actual speed, it's a 3 cylinder engine.
The 38 class 4-6-2's of the NSWGR were quite attractive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJsMy5ReOwU
Victoria Railways in Australia had some handsome Hudsons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy9eFObaZK4
The SNCF 141R 2-8-2's are kind of cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsew5ySZ9I0
I'm kind of partial to South African Railways 19D 4-8-2's myself, especially when equipped with those huge cylindrical tenders that dwarf the engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssEb3lcNyT8
And if it just has to be a 2-8-4, there's always an SAR class 24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb4nw2Ykxao OTOH, SAR kept their locos pretty clean.
rrinker What about pretty much EVERY other how-to article that specifies exactly whuich products were used? Like all the Step by Step articles saying which scenery materials were used. In many of these cases, there aren't a whole lot of alternative options. I see no problem with mentioning a specific manufacturer, it's one thing for an experienced modeler who might already know which brand they prefer, but to just generically say "pastels", many might not know what product to get - and the quality art products will almost certainly produce better results than the cheap kind-oriented versions you might find in a big box store. Mentioing of specific product brands goes back the entire history of MR, based on what I've seen in reading all of the 75 year collection. It is a fine line between saying "I used Brand X" and "You should go buy Brand X" and I don't think this article crossed it. --Randy
What about pretty much EVERY other how-to article that specifies exactly whuich products were used? Like all the Step by Step articles saying which scenery materials were used. In many of these cases, there aren't a whole lot of alternative options. I see no problem with mentioning a specific manufacturer, it's one thing for an experienced modeler who might already know which brand they prefer, but to just generically say "pastels", many might not know what product to get - and the quality art products will almost certainly produce better results than the cheap kind-oriented versions you might find in a big box store. Mentioing of specific product brands goes back the entire history of MR, based on what I've seen in reading all of the 75 year collection. It is a fine line between saying "I used Brand X" and "You should go buy Brand X" and I don't think this article crossed it.
--Randy
I agree.
In fact I like it better when an article tells me exactly which product was used.
The worst is some article that contains a neat paint, structure, car, scenery, etc. that I'd like to get and there is no mention of the product actually used. Then I have to root around, search the Internet, etc. just to find out what it is.
One of the things I like about MR is that they are always exploring new products.
I think it's a great article and I have no intention of weathering my engines.
Enjoy
Paul
andrechapelon My real objection to the article isn't PanPastels, it's that Tony can't seem to get beyond his slavish devotion to the Nickel Plate Road and those accursed Berkshires. Talk about pandering to a small special interest group. I mean, c'mon Tony. Weather a painted, but undecorated mystery locomotive representing no known prototype and scratch built out of a material nobody can identify by someone whose name has long been forgotten in a hobby whose name will go unspoken in order to prevent gastro-intestinal distress to anybody. Andre
My real objection to the article isn't PanPastels, it's that Tony can't seem to get beyond his slavish devotion to the Nickel Plate Road and those accursed Berkshires. Talk about pandering to a small special interest group. I mean, c'mon Tony. Weather a painted, but undecorated mystery locomotive representing no known prototype and scratch built out of a material nobody can identify by someone whose name has long been forgotten in a hobby whose name will go unspoken in order to prevent gastro-intestinal distress to anybody.
zstripe Andre, I like that,,,,,,,that nail,will hopefully be driven home.. Cheers, Frank
Andre,
I like that,,,,,,,that nail,will hopefully be driven home..
Cheers,
Frank
Thanks.
However, were I you, I wouldn't hold my breath. Blue just doesn't seem to be an appropriate skin color for a human being, especially since the only way to achieve that particular color is to deprive your body of oxygen.
I suppose it would be possible for a humanoid species to have a blue skin while still being healthy, but for Homo Sapiens, only oxygen deprivation will do it. Every medical practitioner I've ever run across recommends against the practice, however.
The next expedition up Everest will use Waukesha, WI as its base camp as the Himalayas have now been "kitbashed" out mole hills in Wisconsin. I think I also hear the faint whop-whop-whop of the black helicopters approaching.
Did anyone pay any attention to the fact that Tony was introduced to PanPastels at an RPM meet a couple of years ago and the whole point of the exercise that's causing all the wailing and gnashing of teeth was to demonstrate what could be done with these particular products. Not generic pastels,. but these pastels which were manufactured with certain characteristics.
I could show you a picture of me mowing my lawn and explain the technique I use, but it would include an image (oh the horrible commercialism of it all) of a John Deere L-110 ride around mower. I could demonstrate how to change the oil and filter or pull the deck and replace the blades but the images of green and yellow would fry your brain with the crass product placement, especially since I would be wearing my John Deere hat while doing so (I'm pure evil).
It's ironic. Every 3rd or 4th post in this place seems to go something along the lines of "What's the best -------- "? which is an explicit request for a recommended brand (or brands) and yet when somebody does an article whose whole point is to demonstrate what can be done with a specific product with specific characteristics, everybody starts hyperventilating and the demand for paper bags rapidly overtakes the supply.
PS to Tony Koester: What's with the Berk? The last driver on the fireman's side doesn't line up properly. That looks like it would bind up terribly.
markie97Conversely contrary to the advertising aspect of the Panpastel article, the article about using electrical toggle switches for turnout control would be a much less expensive way of achieving remote control without using their advertisers' products.
LION saw that article. Him said, and I paraphrase, "ACK! I ain't doing that: It is too much work for such little return. All those fussy rods got to work perfectly. My TIME is worth more than a Tortoise! Install a tortoise with a glob of glue, walk away, it's done!"
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
MR has had a lot of infomercials over the years nothing new or to see here.
But,IMHO some times a infomercial push in the right direction can help..
Think not? Check you modeling methods with products that is/was advertised or "push" in MR..
Back in April when Tony spoke at the NMRA Michiana Division E&T Conference, I showed him PanPastels that we'd received from the company. Tony already knew about them and was as excited as I was to demonstrate to others just how quick and easy it is to weather just about anything with these products.
I weathered a 2 Bay Hopper in less than 3 minutes while we were chatting, and it turned out pretty well.I don't see Tony as inappropriately promoting anything, and I've only met him twice.Give Panpastels a try; you won't be disappointed.Dan BrewerNMRA Michiana Division
I have never tried these but I understood that they were more than just a powder with better adhesive properties. Product placement is used regularly in movies and television and if that's the case here, I see nothing wrong with it.
Conversely contrary to the advertising aspect of the Panpastel article, the article about using electrical toggle switches for turnout control would be a much less expensive way of achieving remote control without using their advertisers' products.
Mark
I have to agree with Randy. If you walk into Michaels or A.C.Moore and just ask for pastels, who knows what you will get? Stick chalk, powders, paint? Ask for Pan Pastels and you stand a better chance of getting the right product.
Likewise if you go into your local hobby shop and ask for a decoder you may get any decoder they carry. Walk into your LHS and ask for a Tsunami TSU-AT-1000 and you will get a sound decoder for an Atlas engine you may be working on.
As someone who has written articles for RMC as well as MR, there is a reason that product names are mentioned and part numbers are supplied. It is so John Q Public can duplicate our efforts if they desire, provided they have the ability to do so. Another brand of weathering powders or chalks may not give the same effect that Mr. Koester achieved in his article, either better or worse. AFAIK, that's the logic behind the brand name usage.
Karl
NCE über alles!
LION did not read it that way, because him never figured out that PanPastels was a brand name instead of a generic name similar to chalk pastels or stick pastels or even pastel powder which one might put in a pan.
Him lost LION when he put a steam engine on his work bench. That is far too much work. Besides, trains of LION weather quite nicely just gathering dust on the layout.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.