Rio grande, Sheldon, your pain on passenger equipment is one I very much so share, just a scale smaller. While CCS was kind enough to make SP&S passenger cars(though #305 should be #301 as there was no coach # 305), MTL won't make SP&S heavyweights which comprised a large amount of the small car fleet. Same could also be said for loco's and freight cars in N.
Alongside the SP&S cars rarity are those for NP and GN, many modelers in N myself included are waiting for Kato to spoil us with an NP NCL and GN Empire builder(correct version, not the Uncle pete set though if I can get the $ I'll get the UP repaint set.)
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Forgive my casual rambling...........
Being a member of the over-40 crowd, my perspective is that of a modeler whose passenger fleet consisted of Athearn streamlined shorties. Being that I frequently saw Amtrak trains during the 1970s, the Athearn shorties eventually turned me off due to their extreme plain looks and shortened length.
In the 80s I graduated to Rivarossi Budds. Although generic, to many of us they were beauties and I remember feeling stunned when talented modeler, Joe Oates, modfied a sleeper so well into the Atlantic Coast Line scheme that at first glance I thought it was a $300 brass unit!
Ranging from $16-$22 at my LHS, the Riv Budds were a bargain and were ( and still are) incredibly easy to modify. With repainting or Metalizing and some basic details they can be quite attratctive, imho. Body mounted couplers are an easy task, but for those of us with limited space that still wanted full length cars, the generic GSC 41-N-11 talgo trucks enabled running on 22" radius curves.
Rivarossis modified and refinished with Alclad:
Years later Walthers kicks things up several notches with their Budd, PS, and ACF units, including the 1st run "Super Chief". Detailing was stunning and of course to many modelers, the Rivarossi's suddenly looked as crude as the Athearn shorties. But not long afterwards, we started criticizing Walthers (myself included) about free rolling ability, roof details and window arrangements that weren't "exact" for some roads, roof removal headaches, and occasional problems when rounding curves. But as is often pointed out....when you want superior tooling and better detailing at "affordable prices", you're going to get the headaches associated with the demand.
Overall I felt that, inspite of their issues, the early run Walthers units were (and still are) a bargain. The solution to enable the new and old run Walthers units was to install extended Kadee couplers. It's not neccessay to install LONG shank couplers on both ends of these cars as you would wind up with a huge gap between the diaphrams. Long time modeler Rich Christian installed short shank couplers on the front (vestibule end) and medium shank couplers on the rear of each of his Walthers units. Results? They could handle 22" radius curves smoothly, yet the small gap from a 3 foot viewing distance was barely noticeable. Having a narrow room, this is a compromise that I can live with.
Walthers "old run" units refinished with Alclad:
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
...possibly slightly off-topic, but the most recent Walthers Amtrak Phase 1 passenger cars I've picked up, a PS DB sleeper, 2 10-6 sleepers and a AC&F 44 seat coach, (these are the ones with factory-fitted grab irons), the factory-mounted couplers are in such a way that the diaphragms touch, even with the slack stretched out. Maybe this is an incremental Walthers improvement, I don't know. As the older-run Walthers pax cars the diaphragms did not touch.
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
I have assembled a Walthers Super Chief train and have modified it to look more prototypical. The "rebuilding" that you seem to disdain consisted of replacing the couplers with short shank KD's-a job that took all of five minutes per car. That allowed the cars to be nicely close coupled and the diaphragms touch with a slight compression. The diaphragms are made to operate very well (slippery, tough Delrin). My only complaint is their appearance (really, black color where they should be silver??). But, fortunately that can be fixed, although with a little more work than the coupler fix. I first add a 0.020" dia. styrene rib to the side of the diaphragm and spray them silver. i also add a leaf spring to the top and support rods to the side. You have to realize that Walthers has to make money on these cars but as long as the defficiencies can be fixed relatively easily I am happy. By the way, my mainline minimum radius is 60" but I am trying to see if I can get down to 44-48 inches in the staging track and still have the passenger cars operate well- I don't care how they look there.
READ! Who reads the instructions which detail how to get these to run on 24" radius as advertised. Truck, wheel and coupler tuning-who has the time? Can't wait until we hear from the brass crowd as to all they must do just to get the wagons to even move.
wigman Well, now that I have heard from everyone who thinks anyone can fit huge radius turns on their layouts, I can't. Don't have the room on my long and narrow layout, and my trains have to have some method of getting back to where they started by other than going backwards. My serious beef here is that Walthers, BLI, and all the others who say their cars can negotiate 24" minimum radius curves. The cars SHOULD be able to do so right out of the box without a problem or weeks worth of adjustment so they will work properly. I attribute this to these companies trying to get small pike owners to buy these cars at exorbitant prices, knowing full well that they will NOT work on the stated minimum radius turns. It is false advertising, if you ask me. These cars cost a small fortune to purchase, and apparently they aren't worth it to anyone other than those who can run huge radius turns on their layouts. I guess the solution to it all is go back to the old Rivarossi, Athearn, Model Power, etc. cars that don't have a problem with these radius turns, cost 1/10 as much, and to hell with the fancy stuff - they can spend their lives on the display shelves in my layout room. I had purchased the entire Empire Builder set from Walthers at great expense and it isn't worth a crap, if you ask me, because I can't run it on track that THEY said it would run on. The Proto2000 locos will run on track down to 18" radius, they are fine and perfect examples of high quality at reasonable cost. From this point on, I will not be purchasing any more of these cars. Their loss, not mine. Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate your input very much! Wig
Well, now that I have heard from everyone who thinks anyone can fit huge radius turns on their layouts, I can't. Don't have the room on my long and narrow layout, and my trains have to have some method of getting back to where they started by other than going backwards.
My serious beef here is that Walthers, BLI, and all the others who say their cars can negotiate 24" minimum radius curves. The cars SHOULD be able to do so right out of the box without a problem or weeks worth of adjustment so they will work properly. I attribute this to these companies trying to get small pike owners to buy these cars at exorbitant prices, knowing full well that they will NOT work on the stated minimum radius turns.
It is false advertising, if you ask me.
These cars cost a small fortune to purchase, and apparently they aren't worth it to anyone other than those who can run huge radius turns on their layouts.
I guess the solution to it all is go back to the old Rivarossi, Athearn, Model Power, etc. cars that don't have a problem with these radius turns, cost 1/10 as much, and to hell with the fancy stuff - they can spend their lives on the display shelves in my layout room.
I had purchased the entire Empire Builder set from Walthers at great expense and it isn't worth a crap, if you ask me, because I can't run it on track that THEY said it would run on. The Proto2000 locos will run on track down to 18" radius, they are fine and perfect examples of high quality at reasonable cost.
From this point on, I will not be purchasing any more of these cars. Their loss, not mine.
Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate your input very much!
Wig
But something to keep in mind is that the reason a number of us want 85ft streamlined cars is simply because that's what our prototypes used, even on routes that had "one horse town" station stops. Remember that even some "puddle jumper" trains consisted of one or two 85 footers as shown on this photo of SCL's conncection train to The Chapmion:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/SCL4900.jpg
I'm one of those modelers with a shelf layout (that will have loop capability) that's restricted to 24" radius mainline curves but that is a compromise I'm willing to work with. As I've mentioned before, I had 72 foot HO units years ago, but having seen and ridden on prototype 85ft cars most of my life, the difference in length on HO models was too noticeable for me. I state this because, perhaps, other modelers with sharp curves may have similar sentiments regarding proper car lengths.
zstripe I will most definitely agree with Rich and some others who posted,,the want,of having 85ft cars,seems to be over bearing in this case,,but reality sets in as to the function,or purpose of having them..One good point that was mentioned,was the locale of your layouts theme,,,a one horse town with a whistle stop station,or a two horse town?Where are all the people coming from,that will be on that train?? Just My Reality,Thinking, Cheers, Frank
I will most definitely agree with Rich and some others who posted,,the want,of having 85ft cars,seems to be over bearing in this case,,but reality sets in as to the function,or purpose of having them..One good point that was mentioned,was the locale of your layouts theme,,,a one horse town with a whistle stop station,or a two horse town?Where are all the people coming from,that will be on that train??
Just My Reality,Thinking,
Cheers,
Frank