I have two MTH diesels, a PA and an SD70-M2, plus two MTH steamers. Also a large number of BLI, LL, Bachmann , Athearn and others. I think the criticism of MTH is somewhat overblown. The diesels with the earlier limited DCC functionality can be firmware-upgraded to have the same features as most other decoders. My PA doesn't seem off kilter, but I agree the 70 is a better model. However, their steamers cannot accept a firmware upgrade.
Things I still don't like about MTH are that the sound is "dry" and there is no provision for reverb or equalization control, as with a Tsunami; no individual control of sound levels or choice of chime; inflexible notch and speed control. And the diesel remote control couplers are way too large. Likewise, the steamer drawbars are too long, but both can be replaced.
But passenger cars are another story. Here MTH has risen to the top of the HO heap, IMHO. I have three different sets of their "Prototypically Designed" consists, and the detail, paint quality, lighting and free rolling trucks are very good, overmatching Walthers severely, for similar prices. They even come with semi-scale couplers, whose position can be changed for closer coupling with large radii. Only BLI, Branchline (now extinct) and Rapido (which make only a few US prototypes) have done passenger plastic in this ballpark.
As much as some of us still fault Mike, I believe there is also some good effort going forward at MTH lately.
Hal
HDTVNUT,From what I understand, the firmware upgrade for MTH locos can only be done with the MTH DCS system. Most HO modelers don't have one. If their LHS doesn't have one either (and probably most do not), then how does one upgrade the loco software?
WRT to MTH's passenger cars... Sorry, but I can't agree with your assessment that they are the "top of the HO heap". I saw their NYC set for the Empire State Express. The name boards on the cars were crooked. And not just a little crooked, but obviously crooked...especially so on corrigated stainless steel cars. They do not get top billing when they are pushing substandard product like that out the door.
My own opinion is that Rapido is the best HO plastic passenger car model maker today. They have more detail than anyone, with even etched "glass" dividers and reflective mirrors in the car interiors. And every one of their nameboards on their Canadian sets is perfectly straight. The only knock on them is that they have so much detail that it can affect performance when the trucks can't swing far enough due to a signal or steam line getting in the way.
BTW, Branchline passenger cars are now owned by Atlas and thus are not extinct.
Paul A. Cutler III
ATSFPA51 Hello, I too have recently purchased a set of MTH PA-PB-PAs in ATSF livery. When they arrived, the two A units looked lob sided on the track, and none of the couplers lined up. After examining them with the shells removed, it appeared there was flash on the chassis that was not allowing either the trucks to sit well, or the shell to sit well. carefully machined the chassis (with it stripped down so as not to damage the running gear and electronics, removed the couplers and fitted proper KDs (not the ones supplied), bodies now straight, couplers now line up and work. Take them to my local club to run after programming them with their road numbers. Bummer, no go, they sucked out the power from the layout, shorted just putting them on the track, and the crappy sound when I finally got them going were most disappointing. Further the rotten decoders did not respond to the same sound on or off commands as all my other sound decoded locos. Both my home layout and the club run NCE. Ripping out the crap MTH decoders tonight, and replacing them with ESU Select sound decoders and high base speakers. Very expensive and time consuming fix, but at last a well running set. I will never purchase MTH again!
Hello, I too have recently purchased a set of MTH PA-PB-PAs in ATSF livery. When they arrived, the two A units looked lob sided on the track, and none of the couplers lined up. After examining them with the shells removed, it appeared there was flash on the chassis that was not allowing either the trucks to sit well, or the shell to sit well. carefully machined the chassis (with it stripped down so as not to damage the running gear and electronics, removed the couplers and fitted proper KDs (not the ones supplied), bodies now straight, couplers now line up and work. Take them to my local club to run after programming them with their road numbers. Bummer, no go, they sucked out the power from the layout, shorted just putting them on the track, and the crappy sound when I finally got them going were most disappointing. Further the rotten decoders did not respond to the same sound on or off commands as all my other sound decoded locos. Both my home layout and the club run NCE. Ripping out the crap MTH decoders tonight, and replacing them with ESU Select sound decoders and high base speakers. Very expensive and time consuming fix, but at last a well running set. I will never purchase MTH again!
Back to the OP's comment.
Thank you for the truthful commentary on your experience.
It seems to be on par with other lamenters who commented on their faulty MTH trains in HO scale. There seems to be a pattern of faulty products from MTH. For that many reports to come out about faulty MTH products, I believe I will stay FAR far away from them.
I also NEVER liked their propietary DCC -like system you needed to use all aspects of the equipment. COuldn't they just "play well with others"? Now I understand they HAVe made them DCC-semi-compatible. BAD move.
It seems that the more expensive a loco is, does not equate to quality and at least not in the House Of Mike at MTH!!
I will stick with my Bachmanns...good value for decent money.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
All products, especially HO passenger cars, have problems in design or execution. I didn't say that MTH was "the top" in passenger cars, I said I think they are in the top three. But they have faults. Budd car signboards tended to drift or fall off because they were put on with an inadequate glue. My ESE signs are perfectly straight, so they may have fixed that.
I bought and liked my Rapido Super Continental PRR's with their beautiful detail. However, they're Canadian prototypes painted for US rails. Fault-wise, mine had floors that hooked slightly downward at one end, lowering the coupler too much. The lighting method means that two batteries per car would need replacing if you ever forget to turn lights off, and the battery holders won't hold up to many swaps. Why are the weights in the ceiling? Not helpful for stability.
The BLI Cal Zephyr cars have such delicate metallic paint that the rooves can be damaged just taking the car in and out of its plastic holder (I don't). Their SP observation car had a number of problems which I spent hours fixing.
I give great credit to Walthers for producing the widest variety of US prototype cars. But often, their metal-on-metal trucks don't roll well even after tuning. My fix for the HW's was to change to Branchline trucks. The diaphragms look bad and the car ends lack detail. The user-installed grabs were a pain and don't look that good either. Undersides lack detail. Couplers often come at incorrect height. At least now the couplers are metal and the grabs are installed. No provision is made for lighting tailsigns, warning lights or marker lights. I think that comparatively, the Walthers are priced too high to not have improved more. Hope they listen sometimes, even tho they're the biggest game in town.
Hal,Um, no. Sorry. You said, "But passenger cars are another story. Here MTH has risen to the top of the HO heap, IMHO." You said nothing about a top three of any kind, just that MTH was "the top". Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but when someone says something is "top of the heap", that means they think they are the best, not "top three".
The Rapido Super Continentals are their oldest cars, and have since been redesigned to fix the flexible floors. The battery issue does not concern me because I run during daylight hours (not too many run night ops). And weight in the ceiling hasn't been a problem for me. I have 30" curves, and I run my Rapido coaches through them at a scale 80mph. They have never rolled over. I have had derailments, but mainly because the trucks get hung up on underframe detail parts, not because of a higher center of gravity.
The Rapido "Canadian" cars and their Osgood-Bradley cars (which are based on a US prototype made in Worcester, MA for NH, B&M, BAR, and others) are just about perfect.Paul A. Cutler III
well to steer a little off topic,i have the MTH H.O. big boy & the issue with that is the plastic dog bones are plastic & at such a steep angle they break !!! I had to have metal dogbones made but it seems its a common problem & the shipping package is messed up also, because when people ship them weight of the loco bends the pilot, while its in the factory packaging sucks cause everybody else that produces big boys have the shipping boxes figured out , of back on diesel topic :P
Glad to know about the BigBoy it was one of my targets. I have an MTH HO SD70ACe with proto3 sound and it's great!! The couplers even work with DCC. The metal handrails and other things make this one of the best models I have ever bought.
I like most of you have purchased many locos and have found sometimes the mfgs aren't as good on some models as others. For example, the trucks on Genesis SD70s were awful. The gears on the Proto2000s kept braking/splitting on the axle, etc.
Richard
To be fair to MTH, my favorite train store (which moves a lot of product on a website as well) reports significantly less problems and less warranty returns with MTH HO products than other manufacturers--especially in HO steam.
I would not hesitate at all to buy MTH products; I only wish they were a bit more careful about the body/frame fit of the long PA-1 bodies.
UP 4-12-2 To be fair to MTH, my favorite train store (which moves a lot of product on a website as well) reports significantly less problems and less warranty returns with MTH HO products than other manufacturers--especially in HO steam. I would not hesitate at all to buy MTH products; I only wish they were a bit more careful about the body/frame fit of the long PA-1 bodies.
John, Respectfully I would ask this question, less "numbers" or a lower percentage of sales? Unless someone is actually tracking such data, perception can be deceiving.
MTH has not been in HO that long, has not really made that many different models, and generally has not had very many models available at any given moment - even when compared to the king of limited production and quick sell out BLI, let alone compared to Bachmann.
I would love to see hard numbers of sales vs defects for all three of those brands when it comes to HO steam.
On to another topic being disccused here - passenger cars. Do these MTH passenger cars with the two position couplers actually make the diaphragms touch and say touching in the close coupled mode, or are they just "closer"?
This issue of coupling distance and diaphragms is a primary reason I will not even consider any of these high priced RTR passenger cars - from any of these brands.
Next topic, I agree with Paul, as I likely said earlier in this thread months ago. Much of what MTH has produced in steam is toy like in appearance. The running boards on the Berkshire make it look like a piece of 1950's LIONEL - not to mention all the incorrect details for all the road names except NKP - Bachmann did much better for 1/3 the price - but then again I don't care about sound or DCC.
BUT, the Bachmann model comes plug and play to add sound, the tender has a speaker grill - so even with buying a sound decoder, it is a much better value if you actually care about prototpye accuracy or fineness of detail.
But if you need good rugged toy, MTH is the ticket.
Sheldon
Really upset here.
I have had a PA/PB set (MTH) that I converted to DCC after purchase about 8 months ago. I haven't had too many problems with them aside from them being a little noisy. The bodies fit just fine, good paint, grab irons, etc.
I recently purchased the 5 car set with PA and proto sound 3 to fill out this train. The passenger cars all looked pretty much fine, a couple of grab iron issues easily fixed. The "proto sound 3 loco" however has been nothing but an extreme frustration. There were random broken grab irons in the box, some were missing. It had issues with scratched paint and other blemishes. It ran fine out of the box, but now 5 days later it is barely running. I have cleaned the track, lubricated per the instructions, cleaned the wheels. All of my other locos with sound including the MTH ones that I converted myself are running fine, but this one is just a complete mess.
Compairing this one to the ones purchased 8 months ago is laughable. I have no idea how you can run a company with quality control that is that poor.
Hopefully the warrantee process goes smoothly, I'll be sure to update on customer service.
About real world Alcos.
Weren't they, kind of, the Beta-Test for GE? (251 and FDL even have the same bore&stroke). GE was on the builders plate for all the 1st gen, and this way they are now the dominant builder.
Best possible outcome for Alco might have been, "The Alco division of GE".
GE had the best electronics in the business, and the best traction motors (up until a point came where EMD finally made some that were at least as good--sometime during the '70's I presume).
It was GE's turbocharger design which caused a great deal of problems for Alco in the PA and FA series--which Alco redesigned, and subsequently provided replacements of, to the railroads. In addition to problems with the 244 engine, the crappy GE turbocharger did an awful lot to damage Alco's reputation.
As documented several years ago in a Trains Magazine feature article, Alco was crippled by "steam era" management who believed the diesel would never supplant steam--and by the time they began to get a clue, it was far too late. The handwriting was on the wall--Alco was finished.
Alco was finished the moment GE became the number two builder in sales and quality, sometime in the early 1960's, because the industry will only really support two builders--each to keep the other on their toes.
Apparently there are or were books written about the demise of Alco, and apparently they are considered to be a textbook case study of corporate mismanagement.
I don't believe GE wanted anything to do with Alco after 1956 or so--GE knew Alco's reputation was hurting them and ended their partnership.
Sheldon--
I do not have hard specific numbers of defects because nobody that I know has ever tracked that statistic.
At the train store and mail order operation where I once worked, if an item is defective, it gets placed on a "defective" shelf for the managers to deal with the return process...As there is never free time for anyone to devote to statistical analysis of which makes have the most defects versus units sold (ok, it used to be Bachmann--but that was seemingly eons ago now), that kind of data is just simply not tracked.
My longtime friend, who is the sales manager of a retail train store today, has reported that in the last couple years there have been significantly less defective HO engines from MTH than from BLI, but he did not go into numbers. Nobody ever does get that specific with me. It was enough for it to be noticeable that MTH's quality, excepting the occasional lemon, has been really pretty good. There have been very few complaints--but maybe most purchasers (in this day) are actually more likely to sit them on a shelf and look at them now rather than actually running them...He tells me that straight out--I am among the few who buy it and then take it home and really put an item through its paces. Most of the customers do not, for whatever reason. This makes it somewhat difficult to know how many really have problems until years after items are "on the street". Maybe the second or third owners actually run them...
I can say that it seems the overall numbers of defective items seem to be down quite a bit from what was experienced in the past. I don't see piles of defective items on a shelf anymore. Perhaps he is just more vigilant about getting the returns out to the importers than his predecessors, I don't know.
I have returned both MTH and BLI items for warranty repair and have been pleased with the service received from both importers. I currently have a BLI unit out for warranty repair (bad gears).
Just as fewer people actually "build models" now, it seems fewer people actually have the time, or with all the other entertainment options available today, take the time, to actually run the trains. So we don't know which ones will be the "bad apple" engines of tomorrow...
UP 4-12-2 GE had the best electronics in the business, and the best traction motors (up until a point came where EMD finally made some that were at least as good--sometime during the '70's I presume)..
GE had the best electronics in the business, and the best traction motors (up until a point came where EMD finally made some that were at least as good--sometime during the '70's I presume)..
I disagree, Westinghouse built the best traction motors, they could be overloaded and not burn up unlike other manufacturers. Unfortunately they were only used in Baldwin products, the traction motors were good but the rest of the locomotive was not very good.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
OK, Alco used the GE752 traction motor--which made their engines significantly outperform EMD's where pure tractive effort was concerned--well into the 1960's.
As I'm sure you remember, I too have worked in this business, and did not expect anyone to have actually tracked such data. My point was simply that MTH remains a minority bullder at this point, and so perceptions can be deceiving.
That said, I do not doubt the build quality of MTH in general and would expect it to be equal or better than BLI or Bachmann - but as you noted, Bachmann is the FORD of the model train business - having dramticly improved quality and reduced warranty costs/problems over the last few years.
My problem with MTH remains their "toy" approach - hokey looking remote couplers, oversized details, inaccurate details, DCS, station announcement sounds, smoke, no DC versions, etc. - and high prices - for locos I will just rip the electronics out of.
I simply have no use for them,
Ripping out the remote coupler takes only a minute--if I recall, it's actually quite simple--even for someone like me to do. I think they even include, if I'm not mistaken, actual Kadee whisker couplers in the box for those who want to make the swap, so you don't even have to buy separate couplers.
They now do offer plain DC and/or DCC ready versions, without the smoke and sound--they actually sell those very quickly--as in the dealers that have them don't have them for long (just watch MBK's website--some are sold out within a couple days of arrival), because apparently they are price competitive and some people want to buy them.
Inaccurate details--well, perhaps you have a point there--but that's true of everybody's product at one time or another. Not every paint scheme of every diesel is offered on a road specific correct model by anyone--unless you buy Athearn Genesis--in which case some railroads are not well represented at all. It's great if/when they have what you need--in my case that's very rarely. I need orange and white IC stuff or passenger chocolate and orange...
Unfortunately even the Athearn Genesis models get ripped apart by some critics for the omissions.
How inaccurate is inaccurate? There are reasonable, practical limitations on how accurate these models can be. If for example nearly every C628 or C630 order was different in real life (as almost seems to be the case if you study them closely), then which one or two versions should an importer actually produce?
Now some people actually have already complained that MTH's just announced pilot models have handrail stanchions that are "too small" or "too thin" compared to the prototype. How is MTH to win? (People before have claimed they were "too fat").
Sheldon--buy what you want to buy--I'm not trying to say you have to buy MTH. It's still your railroad, and you prefer steam anyway...
UP 4-12-2 They now do offer plain DC and/or DCC ready versions, without the smoke and sound--they actually sell those very quickly--as in the dealers that have them don't have them for long (just watch MBK's website--some are sold out within a couple days of arrival), because apparently they are price competitive and some people want to buy them. Inaccurate details--well, perhaps you have a point there--but that's true of everybody's product at one time or another. Not every paint scheme of every diesel is offered on a road specific correct model by anyone--unless you buy Athearn Genesis--in which case some railroads are not well represented at all. It's great if/when they have what you need--in my case that's very rarely. I need orange and white IC stuff or passenger chocolate and orange... Unfortunately even the Athearn Genesis models get ripped apart by some critics for the omissions. How inaccurate is inaccurate? There are reasonable, practical limitations on how accurate these models can be. If every C628 or C630 order was different (as almost seems to be the case if you study them closely, as I have), then which one version should an importer produce?
How inaccurate is inaccurate? There are reasonable, practical limitations on how accurate these models can be. If every C628 or C630 order was different (as almost seems to be the case if you study them closely, as I have), then which one version should an importer produce?
If I remember correctly the Steam Locomotives offered by MTH do not come in the DC or DCC only versions, so that is why Sheldon does not buy them as he runs mostly steam engines with a very few diesels thrown in.
Regarding Athearn Genesis, this has not been brought out anywhere, but the entire run of Athearn GP50's does not have an MU Receptacle with or without the Cable on either end of the model, which is required if one is to run more than one engine on a train. The builder completely forgot to install them, as they are listed on the parts list.
You are most correct on the C628 detail issues, I drilled the holes for the grabs on the rear of one of my 628's where Bowser indicated they should be installed before I looked at the picture of the LV 628's and the grabs are off to one side rather than in the middle like all the other units.
OK I've decided to stick my 2 cents on this one.
I have only one MTH car. The Shark Tank (Or as I call it my collection agency for customers who won't pay there bills) which is a reproduction of the old Lionel aquarium cars but in HO scale. There in lies the problem MTH is great in O scale and is trying to reproduce that sucess in HO. I have a cousin who's into Lionel and he swears that MTH makes better equiptment.
LION points out that MTH and Lionel use proprietary equiptment and maybe thats the way it is done in the O world but here in HO we like our loco electronics etc to be interchangable which MTH is not entirely.
Also the O scale MTH market in general is not as into prototype accuracy as the HO world (3 rail track for example) and MTH has brought some of that fantasy into HO such as the above mentioned shark car.
I guess what I am trying saying is that MTH is trying to insert threre square peg into HO's round hole with mixed results.
If I were MTH I would
1) produce a full DCC system. The present DCS system is an off shoot of the DCS in the O world and if they went to DCC I think it would sell better and modelers would be happy.
2) Upgrade there equiptment to be more prtotypical. Bachmann did this and the prices are still reasonable. Look at the souund value locos for example.
Joe Staten Island West
Well, I run steam and diesel, but only 1st generation diesel.
Without going through every model, the biggest single example of a poor model from MTH is their Berkshire.
They built a Nickle Plate version, then slapped every roadname on it they could without changing one detail. And the details on the boiler are GROSSLY over sized - it really does look like a shrunk down piece of 1950's LIONEL.
Bachmann got the major differences right on, and was close even with the smaller details - for 1/3 the price?
MTH has released some diesel DC models, but as noted, no steam.
So they remain off my radar as a product line.
Well, I'm not a Nickel Plate guy, so I wouldn't have looked too closely at any of the Berkshires.
Unfortunately, when one decides to do a diecast boiler (which would not necessarily be my personal choice for a new HO steamer, but...) one can get limited in the dome arrangement. Separate domes are nice, but can have their own issues too if they don't lie down flush with a cast boiler (which from cast boilers and domes I've seen in the past is highly likely in HO).
Regarding foobie paint schemes...one HO manufacturer is considering (as in verbally kicking around) the possibility of offering paint schemes that were ordered and cancelled or otherwise proposed by a builder in writing (Alco) and yet not actually delivered in real life. It's called getting the most mileage you can out of existing (or in this case, brand new) tooling.
I don't particularly like foobies myself, but depending on the situation that does not mean I wouldn't buy them. I actually had ordered one of the Intermountain ES44's in ACL purple and silver, but then subsequently changed my mind on that one....
John
I recently bought one of the Walthers Mainline PA-1's (Santa Fe, with the plated finish) and was searching for Alco PA information...which led me to this old thread, actually by mistake.
While perhaps some of the rhetoric got a bit heated, it was interesting to go back and re-read this thread, and all the comments, pros and cons.
Paul--I had not had the opportunity to sample any Rapido motive power in 2013 (and had a couple earlier passenger cars with paint not as good as the latest examples). You were right on in your posts above: the Rapido stuff is fantastic, in general. I now have Alco/MLW FPA-4's and FA-2's that are fantastic.
I like the Walthers Mainline PA-1, though interestingly it, too, sits a little bit nose high, for me.
I've been searching for some of the MTH PA's, but certain roadnames are very hard to find now.
Does anybody still prefer the Marklin as the "best" HO PA? How hard is it to convert the odd couplers over to Kadee? Any of you regulars have the Marklin PA's?
Now that we are 5 years down the road, what are your opinions of the quality of HO passenger diesels on the market? How did they hold up for you? Would you buy anything differently today than then?
My pair of Alco PA locmotives are old Athearn Blue Box units.
.
I have owned them for a very long time, and they still run as reliable as ever. No plans to replace them.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I had the Athearn bb PA-1's once, and thoroughly enjoyed them...just later wanted...more/upgraded details.
But it is better to be content than to always be wishing for something better to come along. With the Walthers/former Proto PA's, I'm compromising between higher cost alternatives and the familiar bb.
Still very happy with my original Proto PA's. Great runners, great detail, working diaphragms that touch with the Kadee close coupling kit.
Easily the best PA in my opinion.
MTH and Marklin/Trix both seem toylike in their appearance for some reason.
I have ONE MTH diesel - the FA. The biggest problem is that the sound does not restart after an interruption, it just dies. Second problem is the remote uncouplers - they uncouple OK but you have to slam into the train to close them.
The DC ones are hard to convert to DCC because MTH once again has to do their own thing instead of the industry standard - they wire all the lights with a negative common. DCC is positive common.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Why is MTH so complicated? They make some good stuff but why can't they go with the flow?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Because DCC support for AC hi-rail is next to non-existent, so MTH came up with their own system. Then when getting into HO they just went with what they had. The earliest ones were particularly bad, barely worked with DCC. That's been improved through different revisions but you still can't access all the features with DCC. And you can't buy DCS 'decoders' to put in other locos so if you go with DCS then you are stuck running only MTH locos.
John,Yep, Rapido stuff is really top notch stuff. The accuracy and attention to detail is amazing. In the past 5 years, we NH fans have gotten the FL9, NH coaches, and NH parlors from Rapido, with the EP-5, NH RS-11, and the NH diners all incoming from them as well. We're living in a Golden Age of model railroading (especially for NH fans).
As for passenger diesel opinions, the Rapido FL9 is superb. I can't find a single thing wrong with it and so far neither has anyone else, other than the top speed is about 60-65mph (disclaimer: I worked on the design of this model through the NHRHTA). The Rapido F40PH is another great model, and so is the Athearn Genesis SDP40F.
Oh, and BTW, 5 years later and MTH still makes up less than 6 locos in our club's 1800+ diesel roster (it was only 1200 5 years ago). Our ~65 club members just don't buy MTH.
Paul--
I liked the nice speed dial on the MTH controller...but
MTH simply did not make enough of the engines I really wanted to own, so at the present time, I have zero MTH engines on hand, and it has been a few years since I did. I also purchased some of their freight cars through the years, but as my eras changed, I do not currently own any MTH freight cars.
However, somebody did actually buy the PA-1's they made, as other than Erie, it is difficult to find them. I don't personally know anybody who has any, but the marketplace did absorb what was made.
I've since tried just about everybody's engines excepting ScaleTrains (they simply don't have what I was looking for).
The Walthers/Proto PA's though slightly less detailed seem to have better fit/finish than...