UP 4-12-2 Athearn did the Greyhound 4-6-6-4's in Genesis just a couple years ago. Also--to those who say they will never buy another Athearn due to the problems with a couple engines--I personally once said the same thing, and posted a similar ill-considered reply on the Atlas forum--and have learned my lesson since. Though some Athearns do not run as well as Atlas or Kato, they offer more engines by far than anybody else (Atlas doesn't offer HO steam, either), and many of them are truly among the best in the hobby. However, the simple facts are that Athearn has--and has always had, for my entire life--pretty much the best parts support in the business. To be vindictive due to a couple engines that they acknowledge were a "problem" and the manufacturer is long gone isn't going to get you very far. You will miss out on a huge number of fine engines only made by Athearn. Walthers/Proto 2000 has horrible parts support--go read the numerous threads about it on both the Atlas forum and the Atlas Rescue Forum
Athearn did the Greyhound 4-6-6-4's in Genesis just a couple years ago.
Also--to those who say they will never buy another Athearn due to the problems with a couple engines--I personally once said the same thing, and posted a similar ill-considered reply on the Atlas forum--and have learned my lesson since. Though some Athearns do not run as well as Atlas or Kato, they offer more engines by far than anybody else (Atlas doesn't offer HO steam, either), and many of them are truly among the best in the hobby.
However, the simple facts are that Athearn has--and has always had, for my entire life--pretty much the best parts support in the business. To be vindictive due to a couple engines that they acknowledge were a "problem" and the manufacturer is long gone isn't going to get you very far. You will miss out on a huge number of fine engines only made by Athearn.
Walthers/Proto 2000 has horrible parts support--go read the numerous threads about it on both the Atlas forum and the Atlas Rescue Forum
Yes I said I would not buy another Athearn and I have not. Athearn could have handled the problems with the gears with far better customer relations. That is why the boycott is still on as far as my bying.
They could have offered some sort of discount on another of their products, they could have entered into an agreement with NWSL for replacement gears.Or even a coupon for NWSL gear replacements at a discount price.
Do not forget that the problem was known and they were still selliing the locomotives.
As far as buying other steamers Bachmann Spectrum and BLI for plastic is now my choice.
Division Point and Sunset have helped me fill any vacancies in my steam roster which is mainly Canadian..
I also watch e-bay for any Canadian steam brass engines that I might want.
Adding DCC and/or DCC/Sound to the Brass engines is not very difficult at all.
In fact with acquiring the brass engines it is now part of the maintenance process, I kind of enjoy the tinkering with brass that is needed with them once in a while.
Do not worry that I may miss any great Athearn model locomotives.
Thanks for the heads up. I really can't believe MTH finally released them. Now I gotta get me one. I have several MTH steam engines, and SD70Aces and they are all my favorite.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Hey guys! The new run of the MTH HO Challengers is finally available. After owning one from the previous run for a few years, I purchased one of the new ones as soon as I saw it on eBay. I have loved the one which I have had so much that I changed my avatar to be a picture of the prototype when I got it.
For what it's worth, I run my current MTH Challenger on 18" radius curves at decent speeds with no issues and my curves aren't perfect. The only thing is that you will want to make sure there is enough clearance on both sides of the track since the articulation of the engine will cause it to swing out a bit. I currently own one of the previous run MTH Challengers and one of the previous run Athearn models. Let me tell you, once I got the MTH model the Athearn model has collected dust since. The MTH models cost more but they are so worth it, at least in my opinion. The sounds and especially the synchronized chuffing with smoke continue to be a thrill. I can't wait to receive my new one. There are more available on eBay if you're still interested and I'm sure they are slowly becoming available at other places. I have seen a demo online of the new Athearn model but it still does not measure up to the MTH in my opinion. Some things might be better on the Athearn but I will take the MTH sounds and the synchronized smoke over the Athearn Tsunami sound and separately purchased Soothe smoke makers which don't last long and sputter the smoke fluid everywhere. I didn't have good experiences with my Athearn model and those Soothe smoke makers.
Here is a link to MTH's demo of their Challenger:
http://www.mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/download/vid/80st12428v.swf
This is only my opinion. My suggestion would be to look these models up on youtube if you haven't already and form your own opinion. They are both great models.
Have a good night!
Texas Zepher Here is the new Sunset NP Z6. It has Tsunami sound from Soundtrax.
Here is the new Sunset NP Z6. It has Tsunami sound from Soundtrax.
*drool*
I how hard would it be to take the over-done UP challenger and turn it into an NP/GN/SP&S challenger? I've never seen a side-by side of those two and their drive gear, etc.
UP 4-12-2Walthers/Proto 2000 has horrible parts support--go read the numerous threads about it on both the Atlas forum and the Atlas Rescue Forum
I've had a beef with walther's since I first dealt with them for parts. From what I've heard Proto 2000's part support was actually really good before Walther's bought them out. Also the availability was far better, and the prices of the Proto line was about 1/3 to 1/2 of what it is now before Walthers bough them (I think it's about 1/2 now). I got into the hobby just after Walther's bought Life-like.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Probably one of the former Mantua 2-6-6-2 'back road' engines is what would be somewhat better for you. They were for industries with tighter curves and not-so-pristine track where high speed passenger trains also shared the right-of-way. Check out trainworld.com and modeltrainstuff.com. Good prices, reasonable shipping, and quick delivery service.
Crandell
Thanks again for all of the replies.
It looks like I can either get a Challenger and it might look a little silly going around 18" and 22" curves, or I can get another similar engine and have it still look a little silly going around the curves. My backup choice is going to be one of the Hudson engines made by BLI.
But as for now, if I wanted to keep my focus set on an engine very similar to the Challenger (4-6-6-4 wheelset), what are some other choices that I could have? As usual, I'd like it to be able to run on 18"-24" curves. Comments, suggestions, pictures, and videos are always appreciated! :)
Motley I didn't know you had a Challenger Crandell, thats very nice! Can't wait to see the Challenger on your new layout.
I didn't know you had a Challenger Crandell, thats very nice!
Can't wait to see the Challenger on your new layout.
Thanks, Michael. I don't let it out much unless I am doing a UP week. I haven't had one of those in about four years due to 'moving on' with other themes and interests, including mastering the cloning brush and image stacking, plus the new layout. This image, for example, had neither cloning (smoke and steam, background repairs), nor the stacking when I took it about three years ago, but since then I have gone back and added the effects you see.
Ya we'll see if MTH really has them available. They were supposed to be here in Dec.
Which ever one comes out first, weather its Athearn or MTH, I'll be getting the Challenger & FEF 4-8-4.
If you don't mind the stigma of the MTH brand,...Looks like they are releasing the model you want in July.
I just got the following e-mail from TRAINWORLD / TRAINLAND in BROOKLYN NY......
I have a grey Genesis Challenger that I purchased 6 years ago.
It runs very well. The only time it ever derails is when I run it thorugh a turnout the wrong way (that is not surprising). Sometimes I run it on the clubs modular layout that is very rough and the only problems I have is the passenger cars derailing.
It has the old MRC sound decoder, which is not the best, but it is still working so I have not replaced it.
It had a problem with the traction tires coming off so I ordered the wheel set without traction tires from Athearn. It was easy to install and it still easily pulls my 14 heavyweight Walthers passenger cars.
I am very happy with this model!
Obviously, I don't know your layout--how big it is or isn't and how many curves are involved, but I'm still going to recommend re-doing the curves to 24" radii so that the passenger cars you might eventually want to put behind even a nice Hudson will operate with ease.
John
anoles22 I guess I could always just go to the 2nd engine that I've been looking to get: The 4-6-4 Hudson....
I guess I could always just go to the 2nd engine that I've been looking to get: The 4-6-4 Hudson....
And, as a NYC fan, anoles, a very good choice.
BLI just released a 2nd run of their Paragon2 Hudsons. (I bought one of the 1st runs and they are terrific.) A 2nd run of their Dreyfuss Hudson is due out next month.
So, if you don't end up finding a Challenger to suit you, there are plenty of Hudsons available on the market.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
18" radius curve operation with an articulated is very difficult, unless it's a 2-6-6-2 with smaller drivers and not a big dual service tall drivered 4-6-6-4. The 2-6-6-2's were favored for coal mine run and logging operations, and they have a much easier time with tight radii. There are Mantua (now available from Model Power) 2-6-6-2 logging engines that are a lot of fun to play with--but they are not a UP Challenger or anything close. The appear rather "old-timey".
22" radius is already very much sharper than what the prototype could ever negotiate. These HO models are built with lots of end play in the drivers and extra slop in the valve gear--to allow the lateral motion required.
Plus, the overhang of a big articulated on 18" radius looks just absolutely horrible--and may result in tunnel portals, etc. needing to be excessively large--or they will get hit.
If a manufacturer states "minimum recommended radius" it is not recommended that the model be consistently operated at lesser radii--imo you are asking for mechanical trouble, and the derailments, which might be commonplace, aren't worth it.
If 18" radius is a requirement, one might be limited to the former Rivarossi steamers, which won't look very good...
This is going to sound crass, but if you want articulated motive power, I would rebuild the layout--and before you say that is ridiculous, I'll say I've done that very thing. It's often easier and cheaper to fix the layout than to trash nice models you are going to spend some good money on.
My smallest radius is Kato 26.375" radius, with easements into it, and even then there's a whole lot of brass steamers I would never even attempt to operate on that radius. I was designing for BLI and MTH and Genesis steamers and passenger cars--not for brass operation--and not for the Athearn DDA40X Centennial diesel.
Even at 26" radius, I had to get the trackwork darn near perfect to operate 4-8-4's and full length passenger cars with ease. At 18" you are asking for nothing but a lot of trouble, or limiting yourself to only certain builders' compromised length equipment. Maybe that would be ok for awhile, and maybe some people are still happy with the IHC/Rivarossi passenger cars and talgo mounted couplers long term--I've just learned that can never be me.
Respectfully submitted--
Those panels are called smoke deflectors or smoke lifters. They create a higher pressure layer atop the boiler and force the smoke to stay aloft at speed. In some cases, at hight speeds, the smoke is forced to lay flat atop the boiler and it enters the cab or blinds the crew. This unfortunate circumstance is what led to the accident with Norfolk & Western's J Class 4-8-4 #607 in February, 1948. The J Class is streamlined, and does not have smoke lifters. When running that day, the smoke was being blown flat and down across the cab blinding both the fireman and the engineer. Both missed a slow signal because they were required to cross over to the next track, and they entered the crossover at track speed, tipping the locomotive. The fireman died.
oregon shay Anoles, I checked the Athearn website for the soon to be released Challengers, and one of the models is a grey-colored version (Athearn item# ATHG97225). Check it out - it may not be the same greyhound scheme as the ones released several years ago, but it still looks great. Wilton.
Anoles,
I checked the Athearn website for the soon to be released Challengers, and one of the models is a grey-colored version (Athearn item# ATHG97225). Check it out - it may not be the same greyhound scheme as the ones released several years ago, but it still looks great.
Wilton.
Thanks so much for this! The one that you sent me looking for is almost the exact model that I'm looking for. I like the metal pieces on the very front that remind me of "blinders" that a horse would wear. I'm not entirely sure what these are used for on a train, but I really like the way they look. The only thing I'm worried about is that the description says that the "recommended minimum radius" is just 22". I'd prefer them be able to handle the few 18" curves that I have on my layout. I noticed that the Big Boy on BLI's page can handle 18" curves. I wasn't aware of that. Does anyone have any proof (in a picture or video) that the Athearn Challengers can handle smaller curves than the 22"?
selectorYou mean one of the greyhound Challengers like this? It's the Lionel HO version produced about ten years ago, no longer in production. I believe the MTH tooling might have come from Lionel in a court settlement.
So do you mean to tell me that there aren't currently any greyhound versions of the Challenger engine expected to come out in the near future??? :( I hope that they make another one. That's the one that I like the most. I guess I could settle for a different color scheme, but the greyhound is the one I fell in love with first. I guess I could always just go to the 2nd engine that I've been looking to get: The 4-6-4 Hudson....
anoles22 .... I am looking to buy the grey-toned Union Pacific Challenger. I really like the way the grey looks compared to the black. This may change after I've seen a few more pictures and videos of them, but that's where I stand on color as of now... ...The reason I'm not going with the Big Boy is simply because I like the Challenger's "look" better. Something just draws me to it. :)...
....
I am looking to buy the grey-toned Union Pacific Challenger. I really like the way the grey looks compared to the black. This may change after I've seen a few more pictures and videos of them, but that's where I stand on color as of now...
...The reason I'm not going with the Big Boy is simply because I like the Challenger's "look" better. Something just draws me to it. :)...
You mean one of the greyhound Challengers like this? It's the Lionel HO version produced about ten years ago, no longer in production. I believe the MTH tooling might have come from Lionel in a court settlement.
Hey everyone!
Thanks so much for your replies to this post. This is going to be the biggest locomotive that I've purchased, and by far, the most expensive....so I am doing as much research as I can before putting a down payment on one.
I'll start with replying to a few questions that I can remember....
I am looking to buy the grey-toned Union Pacific Challenger. I really like the way the grey looks compared to the black. This may change after I've seen a few more pictures and videos of them, but that's where I stand on color as of now.
My layout currently only has 22" curves for the mainlines and 18" curves on the siding tracks. I'm considering upgrading to 24" curves, or even 28" curves for the outer mainline, but I haven't decided on that yet. Based on what I have now, though, it looks like the challenger will run on my layout (as long as the tender is made to run on it).
I'm looking for a Challenger that has both sound and DCC... I just recently bought my first sound/DCC engine from BLI and I am NEVER going back to standard DC. The change is just way to significant.
My layout is currently a 5x9 layout with 2 mainlines and 2 siding/holding tracks. My main engine at the moment is a BLI 4-6-2 Pacific carrying a consist of 9 ACL heavyweight passenger cars. The Challenger is going to be my only big engine on the tracks and will probably be carrying 9-10 passenger cars of some sort..
The reason I'm not going with the Big Boy is simply because I like the Challenger's "look" better. Something just draws me to it. :)
Well, that's all the time I have to reply to folks tonight. I'm going to hop on tomorrow and try to reply to a few more responses. Thanks again for all of the posts! This is really helping me decide on my engine :)
UP 4-12-2Ahem--that Genesis Challenger is not a Rio Grande L-105 Challenger, but is a Rio Grande class L-97 Challenger instead. The actual Rio Grande designed L-105 challengers were completely different animals, and have never been offered outside of HO brass. (The brass Key/Samhongsa versions are the best for bang for the buck.)
The actual Rio Grande designed L-105 challengers were completely different animals, and have never been offered outside of HO brass. (The brass Key/Samhongsa versions are the best for bang for the buck.)
Don,
I was intrigued by your post, enough to learn more about Athearn's position on parts support. I called their parts department in Long Beach, CA., and asked about the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 steamers. I am told that these steamers were built in the late 1990s, and sometime after the production run, the company that Athearn had make them went out of business, making it difficult for Athearn to support them. I can sympathize with Athearn's position to a point. In the global economy we are at the mercy of just this kind of thing.
I have seen repeated references in these forums to North West Short Line (NWSL) offering "aftermarket" gears for many locomotives, among other products. Realistically, with the advances in technology and the new products desired by modelers, trying to effectively support everything previously built is not going to be easy. Your particular scenario was certainly unfortunate. I have read references, again in these forums, to having to make changes out of necessity when parts are not available or an engineering modification is required. I try to have fun with this hobby in spite of the setbacks, most of which have a lot to do with my own lack of skill or ability. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Don, those original Genesis steamers (Athearn had other steamers before that) had two major flaws, one being the split gear issue which you mention, while the other was their almost non-existent pulling power. I got a free replacement gear for a Pacific which I repaired for another modeller, but neither of my Mikados has had any issues with the gears yet, and I use them on very heavy (100oz.) coal trains.Once I figured out a way to increase their tractive effort (extra weight and balancing), I was able to pick up two more at under $100 each (still with the original gears, but now re-worked as were the original two). I later bought a fifth one, complete with an extra tender, for about the same price. It had had its gear replaced with one from NWSL as a preventative measure. I have yet to correct it's weight problem, but it will eventually become a CNR S-3 with an Elesco fwh.Once those problems have been addressed, these are very nice runners, and the Samhongsa mechanism is as smooth as any they've built in brass. I added tender pick-ups to mine, making them even more reliable.
Despite the rather extensive work done on them, I left mine looking fairly stock, as USRA Mikes were, in my opinion, well-proportioned and I didn't wish to tamper too much with their appearance.
Wayne
I agree, unless you have a very large layout stay away from the large mallets.
Other than I do not need any type of mallet engine,. I will not buy any more Athearn locomotives.
I purchased their HO Genesis 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 steamers, only to find out that they came assembled with split gears. Athearn had no parts for them after a few of months of their initial release.
I now longer buy Athearn. I only buy engines after I have confirmed parts are available from the manufacturer.
Thanks for initiating this post. I have thoroughly enjoyed all the responses you received, not to mention the educational value of it as well. Gotta love big steam.
anoles,
DON'T give in to the big, Texas-size steam monsters! Buy a moderate-size steamer. You'll be happier.
I have the Genesis UP Challenger and the Bowser Challenger I built from a kit. Both are great, but the Bowser has a lot more pulling power and is in some ways more realistic. I really enjoyed building the kit and learned a lot about steam locos doing so. But, the Genesis is a fine machine too.
Richard
BRVRRThe loco navigates the BRVRR layout with its several snap-switches and 18-inch radius reversing loop without problems. It has no trouble on the 20 and 22 1/2-inch mainlines.
Ditto. I have the same model, an older run. I cannot speak of the DCC capabilities because I am strictly DC, but with #4 snap switch turnouts and 22" radius it runs just fine, and ironically does not look as out of place as a 4-8-4, most likely because of both driver sets articulating as previously posted. It has 2 traction tires, IIRC, one on each set of drivers, and will pull anything I put on it with 3% grades (including turns, which magnifies). DCC aside, the only issues I have is being a flywheel motored loco, it slows on the upgrades and hauls @$$ on the downgrades, which I suppose all flywheeled locos would do. Otherwise, a very nicely detailed and operating loco!
As for the Big Boy posters out there, those are on my "someday list", as are 2-8-8-2's; I will probably shop the bay for a RR model when that someday gets here!
Happy RR'ing!
Duane