Hi, tried a search lst. I'm about to cut bridge track (Micro Engineering) for a girder plate bridge that is 1o: long. In Jeff Wilson's Kalmbach book he shows the bridge track ties ending at the respective ends of his bridge. Did they ever extend further?
I also wondered about the lack of guard rails (the ones that come to a point beyond brige ends 30-50 ft. on the Micro Engineering bridge track. Were guide rails not used on girder bridges? Would knowledgable viewers miss seeing them?
I'll probably use the Walthers Bridge Track for the two truss bridges, later, but wondered about the 2 things above concerning girder plate bridges.
Thanks much,
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Make that 10 inches long for the girder plate bridge. Thanks again.
It varied so much in real life. Some did not have guardrails, some one, some both. Some ended in a point on both ends, some only one and in every thing less than a point. Also every length imaginable. Saw one that was on only one side and started quite a distance before the bridge and ended just before the bridge end. The one end was just bent into the balast with the one on the bridge just cut off.
One of the issues with variable length was any need to protect elements of the bridge. Derailments are bad enough and definitely part of the reason for guardrails. But the ultimate worst result is something that compromises the structure of the bridge itself. So your bridge and abutments will give you some clues about what will look right.
As for pointy ends for your ME bridge track, it's code 55 for HOn3 bridges, but I don't know what comes with SG bridge track. Code 55 would be good anyway, as it will keep things low and less likely to snag when cleaning.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have seen the curved/pointed guard rail ends met just inches beyond the abutments of the bridge all the way out about 20'.
Crandell
Looks like a lot of good information is contained in this thread from 2010: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/169494/1861665.aspx#1861665
Even has some links to PRR specification drawings.
I have many bridges on my layout. Most have been made from kit Atlas bridges: Through-truss, Deck-Truss, Plate Girder, Through-Girder. Some of these have been Kit-bashed together, by cutting up parts of the various types mentioned to make bridges that are different-longer than the standard Atlas Bridge kit. In all of these cases, the bridge deck and guard rails all ended precisely at the abutments of the bridge itself and in all cases the guard rails just bend inward, running about a 1/2 inch or so and do not come to a point. In the Kalmbach book: Bridges and Trestles, they discuss the length of the guard rails as generally extending past the abutments of the bridge, maybe 10-70 feet. They also show that Guard rails were not always used. The ends of the guard rails were treated in various ways, bent inward and down, between the ties, bent inward; but, not meeting and bent inward and meeting and show that where they are bent inward to meet, they meet in various ways; notched and lapped, simply meeting in a miter cut, meeting with a special tip part. I don't see them showing the closer spaced and longer bridge ties extending past the abutments in the book. But who knows/who cares, if you want to do so, it's your railroad, do what you want!
In fact, on the last trestle I scratch built, I used Micro Engineering bridge track which had Code 83 rail with Code 70 guard rails. I extended the bridge ties several feet past the abutments, as I simply liked how this looked. If someone feels they need to correct me on this, I will insist they prove me wrong and even if they could, it still boils down to it being my railroad and I will do what ever I like!!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I have explored along the CPRs mainline through the mountains etc. When it comes to bridges, nothing is neat and tidy like we see in the MRR books. Guard rails are made up of old worn out sometimes bent sections of rail. That makes sense, rail is very expensive so use some crap to do that job. They are also usually different lengths and never come to a neat point like they do in the books. Except maybe in urban areas.
As far as bridge track goes, I have noticed that it extends beyond the actual bridge structure quite often. In areas where the RR crosses a river and the banks are river gravel for a ways on each side, I have noticed the bridge track go on for a distance. I think this is because of erosion concerns at high water.
Where the bridge terminates into rock, the bridge track ends close to the structure of the bridge.
One thing for sure Railroads seem to keep things very neat and tidy near civilization, however get into the wilds and you will see piles of spikes, ties and rail sitting by the mainline for years before they are picked up.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The book I mentioned above,shows photos of the guard rail ends I mentioned. So, at one point in time the "Neat Point" you state never existed, must have. Maybe they weren't used on the CP/CN, I don't know.
I've always found that the things shown; or, mentioned in the books I have of Kalmbach's or Carsten's, existed. The idea is for these books to show the reality of railroading with generally accepted practices, not go off the deep end.
I've walked the rails here in Minnesota (in the wilds) as you say and have occasionally found an old spike, tie plate and even some old ties in piles when the track gang has done some recent work. Old welded rail may also lay along the road bed. However, I don't find the right of way to be anymore cluttered with crap than in urban areas.
Urban ROWs do seem to have less materiel just laying around because there's more people around to help it find a way to wander off.
I'd like to separate two things which have gotten somewhat tangled:
Bridge track - larger-than-standard ties, closer than standard tie spacing, usually with a timber bolted along the tie ends. That kind of structure is only used on the bridge structure itself. Take a close look at the point where the rail crosses the abutment - 'stock' tie on the ground, bridge tie on the metalwork
Guard rails - always found on through bridges, may or may not be installed on deck bridges. May also be found on high fills and in tunnels. May be anything from used mine car rail (on a poster three meters from my right shoulder) to main-line re-lay (HO, Code 80 for Code 83 running rails.) Your prototype's Common Standards (or its historical society) will indicate which way to bounce this ball.
The long, pointy ends on guard rails usually extend 25-40 feet beyond the abutments. They may or may not end in fancy castings, or just close together (and not necessarily the same length.) Some lines even bent them into the ballast. Again, this is prototype and era specific, so some research may be in order.
Guard rails were intended to keep derailed trucks in line with the rails, and the carbody out of contact with the bridge (or tunnel) structure. On deck structures, the latter wasn.t a concern,, so some roads didn't use guard rails there. OTOH, some railroads use guard rails (but not bridge track) on ballasted-deck bridges.
There was another, odd, form of guard rail used where long-wheelbase steam ran tight curves with blind drivers. On the inside of the curve, there would be a rail the same height as the running rail laid just outside it, barely separated enough to allow spikes to be used. The same on the outside rail, but there the extra rail would form a super-long flangeway. Without those extra rails the blind drivers could drop off the rails and not be able to climb back on.
My prototype (JNR) installed single guard rails on high speed mainlines - on the field side of double-track mains, to keep derailed equipment from collecting something running in the opposite direction.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with guard rails in odd places)
Thanks very much, guys.
Tom, the issue that confuses me is that (I think) a plate girder bridge IS a through bridge. Is that correct?
So...if so, should it really have guard rails as well as the existing micro engineering guard timbers?
Sounds like the close ties should end at the abutment like in Wilson's book as in the real world.
Just tryin' to do it like the real world.
Thanks for any further clarifications,
Jim, a "Plate girder bridge" can be either a deck girder or a through girder bridge. If it has a floor structure supported by girders that extend above track level it is a through bridge. Current NS practice puts guard rails on through girders with ballasted decks. They appear to be in the 100# range - code 70 in HO.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Thanks, interesting topic!On a bridge project I am doing, I'm going to use just the ends of the Walthers 948-886, ½ Meter bridge track, as it has the ends with the Pointed Gaurd Rail points that are a seperate section, & I can use those on each end of my 3 span Bridge set & then add in the appropriate rail throughout the span.Those removable parts are about 2 inches (or so) long, & yes it is a lot of joints, but will give a very nice look, in my opinion.I also plan on soldering fish plates to all the joints to provide the strength & conductivity, I have some nickel plated units from Proto 87 Stores, & hope that testing, & application will be successfull.
If you wanted ready made gaurd rail leade's & tail's that may be a nice option.
Capt. Grimek Tom, the issue that confuses me is that (I think) a plate girder bridge IS a through bridge. Is that correct? So...if so, should it really have guard rails as well as the existing micro engineering guard timbers? Sounds like the close ties should end at the abutment like in Wilson's book as in the real world. Just tryin' to do it like the real world. Thanks for any further clarifications, Jim
A "Through Bridge" would be a bridge that has any type of support structure above the deck of the bridge. A "Deck Bridge" therefore, would be a bridge that the support stucture would be below the deck.
Tom, thanks very much. Tom and NP, I figured my girder plate was indeed a 'through' bridge but wanted to be sure that term applied before making the decision about whether or not guard rails would be needed to be prototypical.
Thanks again everyone,
Jim.
Everything you need to know about how the mighty PRR built track. This book is dated 1957.
http://prr.railfan.net/documents/CE78%28j%29.pdf
Guard rails for bridge and trestles are paragraphs 1001 to 1015. Interesting in fact is the speed limit and curve radius determines the length of the guard rails.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I find it interesting the lengths some of you feel you need to take adherence to prototype practices. You reference prototype information contained in books written for real railroads and espouse points of view that really can not be proven! You seem to think things are always black and white and maybe they are; but, who really cares.
I guess I look at building my model railroad from a slightly different perspective. I only really care if my railroad looks real. I think it is far more important that all my cars show realistic weathering, as opposed to small details that probably aren't even noticeable/visible at the distance we observe our trains running around the layout. 99.5% of the people who visit our layouts have no idea if a detail we have added; or, left out, is prototypically correct and likely do not care one way or the other.
I can understand this interest in adherence to prototype and please understand this post is not being critical of your choice. I chalk it up to your doing what you want to do, which is what the hobby is all about. However, I wonder if you can understand my point of view.
NP2626I can understand this interest in adherence to prototype and please understand this post is not being critical of your choice. I chalk it up to your doing what you want to do, which is what the hobby is all about. However, I wonder if you can understand my point of view.
Its called rivet counting thank you! Some of us feel that track is a model too. This is why I chose to hand lay rail on ties with tie plates. Code 70, 55, and even a spur in code 40 for HO stripped from N scale. I even started putting joint bars on the visible sides of my track work. I just like doing insane things to keep me from going nuts.
locoi1sa NP2626I can understand this interest in adherence to prototype and please understand this post is not being critical of your choice. I chalk it up to your doing what you want to do, which is what the hobby is all about. However, I wonder if you can understand my point of view. Its called rivet counting thank you! Some of us feel that track is a model too. This is why I chose to hand lay rail on ties with tie plates. Code 70, 55, and even a spur in code 40 for HO stripped from N scale. I even started putting joint bars on the visible sides of my track work. I just like doing insane things to keep me from going nuts. Pete
And Pete, my guess is, you are enjoying adding all the detail to your track that you do. I certainly don't think of what you are doing as an indicator of insanity and yes, you could call this strict adherence to what the prototype does/did as "Rivet Counting". I have super detailed my locomotives, added interiors and lights to buildings and built many Proto 2000/Branchline/Intermountain/etc. type freight car kits. I've enjoyed doing this!
However, your choice to be a "Rivet Counter" doesn't mean that the rest of us need to follow this belief;or, that we're less of a modeler than you are!
Again, I am only attempting to express my point of view and not singling anyone out for how they enjoy conducting their Model Railroading hobby!
NP.
I posted the book for the OP to flip through. He asked a good question about guard rails. Many modelers do not even attempt to model guard rails on bridges, tunnels, going into load out areas, even under coaling and water tanks. I do not begrudge anyone for not doing this. I see it all the time and never say "hey where are your guard rails". Its their railroad and that's that. I run mine about 8 inches before the bridge abutments and I even did guard rails under my sand and gravel loading facility but ended them a couple inches from the hoppers. My layout is still being constructed and one scene will be some track pans. The track where the pans were are not on ties and ballast but cut stone. This stuff fascinates me and doing the research is half the fun. I do not consider myself a rivet counter but I want to do it right the first time and have it look decent. I figure the better the track looks the less people will focus on my poor scenery painting and crummy looking trees.
No one is telling the OP what to do. Just answering the questions is all.
Have fun.
locoi1sa I run mine about 8 inches before the bridge abutments and I even did guard rails under my sand and gravel loading facility but ended them a couple inches from the hoppers.
locoi1sa Many modelers do not even attempt to model guard rails on bridges, tunnels, going into load out areas, even under coaling and water tanks.
I'm no rivet counter, nor am I modeling anything near a prototypical RR, however, I never thought about guard rails until a post a while back where someone asked about what glue to use to attach them. With that, I began adding them to my deck bridges, at least the ones on curves.
I never even thought about coaling and water facilities, but with this I envision more guard rails being added there as well! So, this thread has been informative, or inspiring anyways, for me. Thanks Pete!
Duane
I've searched on the internet for just the pointed guard rail end bits (Walther's Shinohara Code 83) but haven't seen them listed separately. Anyone have a source for them or something similar? Are they pretty easy to add later if I misse seeing them? Either spiking or gluing?
I have 3 lengths of ME bridge track so hate to buy Walthers to just get the ends-and probably wouldn't.
Thanks guys. I've learned about the existence of coaling/water facilities guard rails here so glad I asked the original question(s).
Just get some rail stock and file the ends. A small mill file, lay the rail on its side on a small block of wood to protect its shape, and gently file a sharpened end. Repeat three times, and then bend the ends so that they come to a point. I haven't seen welded points, just the tips bent to be close to each other, almost touching.
I have seen actual steel castings, sort of similar to the pointy part of a frog without the guard rails. A few minutes whittling and filing on a scrap of styrene, followed by a coat of white or grunge-colored paint, wiuld produce a satisfactory approximation.
Why white paint? I have seen the prototype painted white.
Note that I'm not telling anyone to do this. It's just an interesting detail.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with details appropriate to the location)
Super glue work just fine? Or should they be spiked-I've got plastic ties/M.E. bridge track.