Just curious if anybody still uses the old PFM onboard sound systems anymore? If so, how do they sound when compared to all the DCC stuff we use today? I have heard the new stuff obviously, but never seen a PFM system operating in person. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I would love to find one, affordably or even just get it out of my hair type deal to play around with on my small layout. I only run 2-3 PFM locomotives, nothing else. I love the old school stuff when it comes to trains, wood kits, older engines, the smell of ozone and hot oil from open frame motors. Hope to hear from some folks that still use the system ect. Mike
I saw one a couple of years ago at a train show - For Sale. There were no takers by the end of the day. I remember when they came out in the late 60's. The steam sound was not too bad, but the 'bell' was rather horrible and the whistle was the best sound. I know PFM later released a reverb unit, and an updated system. By the mid 70's, PFM imports were on the wane and on-board sound was making itself known. The PFM sound system piped the sound over the rails to a speaker in the tender. There was no electronic chuff sync, one had to use the cam or insulation method to trigger the chuff.
Also by the mid 70's, the hobby seemed to be going to walk-around throttles and early command control like the CTC-16. Sound was sort of left in the dust by the 'operator' types. I remember going to layout tours at NMRA regional meets and there always seemed to be one layout that featured a PFM sound system with one or two sound equipped engines.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I think a lot depends on the speakers you have and the placement under the layout, etc.
Subsequent to the PFM sound system their were other nicer systems that came out, including one from Dallee Electronics. I'm sure my one friend would still be using it if he hadn't briefly gone to jail for odometer fraud (I'm not making this up) and had to sell his HO brass collection to pay for legal fees (again, I'm not making this up--I helped handle the sale of the brass collection to John Glaab). Sometimes you can't pick--or don't really fully know--what your "train friends" are like in their "alternate life" or "real life" (outside the train room).
But I digress.
Others have asked this question lately--and other responses I've heard were just that in some cases the PFM system was simply worn out. It's been a long time now...
As I'm not a DCC guy--and never will be--if I had the opportunity to pick up a functioning PFM sound system for a song, I might just be inclined to use it.
John
Yes, I have 3 units. 1 Mini-sound and 2 PFM Sound System IIs. The DCC systems are just now getting as good as the PFM are. However it is like comparing apples and oranges. The PFM sound is generated off unit and transmitted into the speaker on the loco. DCC sound units store/generate the sound on board the loco. Most of the PFM sounds are real analog recordings of the various sounds for bells, generators, steam pumps, etc. The sound loop of the PFM tapes is about 5 minutes not 15 the seconds or so on some of the digital ones. The PFM has always had a playable whistle which in my opinion is still way better than the DCC "playable" whistles.
Note there is a huge difference between the original PFM sound unit, the PFM Mark 2, and the systems I am talking about. Those two earlier systems had "electronic" bells, hiss, and other things that were pretty bad. Interesting side note - I sold my Mark 2 to a fellow in Japan that lived only 2 blocks from the factory where they were originally made.
Also the PFM sound was suseptable to dirty track, but in a totally different way then DCC. Instead of cutting out and stalling, PFM sound will miss a chuff, or just crackles and pops like an LP phonograph with dust on it.
The way original DCC sound units increased the chuff and exhaust cut off based on voltage and speed was one of my pet peeves. The PFM needs a feedback from the actual physical position of the wheels to chuff. This is most often in the form of a cam on one of the axles (another reason to buy PFM brass because they have this built in). This makes the sound be exactly aligned with the position of the drivers and exactly the right speed for the speed of the locomotive. I have noticed the newer DCC units offer an input for a cam. This is good news, for people who want accurate sound.
I still haven't encountered a DCC system that can adjust the cut off well for a train under load or just drifting down hill. Even on the PFM this was a manual thing. I suppose a DCC steam sound decoder could use the "dynamic brake" function to reduce the harshness of the exhaust cut off and make it sound like the loco is "drifiting".
PFM is steam only. One had to go to the PBL to get diesel. I don't remember if Grizzly Mountain was steam only or also had diesel. All three systems are the same technology.
Of course the quality of the sound is still totally dependent on the speaker installation. The best sound system in the world can sound terrible if the speakers are poorly installed.
The PFM Sound System II originally sold for $1500 or so. I think you should be able to get one for under $100. A mini sound under $75. This is of course assuming good working condition with all the parts (main console, tape unit, reverb unit, stationary speaker unit). The lesser systems original and Mark 2 should be in the $25-$50 range.
So, which system would you recommend for a small layout, the mini sound? I wish all PFM brass had the sound cam. My main engine is a late run WP heavy Mikado. It has DCC sound in it for the moment, but its a poor decoder lacking generator whine, sucky whistle selections and poor bark for a heavy Mike. I love the playable whistle I have listened to on youtube of PFM units running. DCC sound will get there, but it will take a different hand held controler to get a playable whistle IMHO. Secondary engines I have are a PFM Southern PS4 pacific and a NKP Berk, but they are basket cases I am rebuilding, early run models that I still need to locate parts for. Espicaly a pilot assembly with the compressors and shields for the NKP Berk. The rest is easy stuff like driver springs and draw bars. Mike
TZ pretty well summed things up. I've only heard them at shows a time or two, but the ones with all the goodies and updates have a good reputation. Narrowgaugers especially liked them and some folks still run 'em for the reasons TZ elaborated on.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
emdmikeSo, which system would you recommend for a small layout, the mini sound?
Here is my main engine I want to put the PFM sound into. Late run PFM/United WP heavy mikado. I am waiting for the paint to cure before decaling and then toning down the shine a bit, although she will still look freshly shopped. Havent seen anything affordable on that popular auction website, just an early first version console and a full system 2 for some big $$. Thanks for the tips and advice so far, I really appreciate it. I wish the 2-8-2 had the cam factory installed but it doesnt. But thats not a huge feat to install with the cams on the market that dont require pulling a driver to install them. Just have to machine an opening in the retainer plate for the cam. Mike
Texas ZepherThe PFM Sound System II originally sold for $1500 or so. I think you should be able to get one for under $100. A mini sound under $75. This is of course assuming good working condition with all the parts (main console, tape unit, reverb unit, stationary speaker unit). The lesser systems original and Mark 2 should be in the $25-$50 range.
Club I belong to has one of the system II units we'd like to get rid of. However, all I see is the large console and two tape decks. I don't see anything in the instructions (looking through quickly) that mention other items. Could you tell me what the complete system II consisted of?
Thanks
If I recall the best sound system I heard was by Maguffin or something like that. I think they only lasted in business a few years as the various command control (Keller, CTC16) were starting to make inroads and they were very expensive, something like a month's salary so I never bought one. But the sound, especially the bass with a separate large speaker made you feel like the loco was in the room with you.
It should have a reverb unit. That would be a brass colored box about 15 inches long 4 inches wide and an inch deep. It basically has 4 large springs in it. Has two RCA phono plugs on the side. One at either end.
The stationary speaker unit is a raw circuit board with a large transformer, a couple large can capacitors, and sliver toggle. It isn't real large about 5"x5". You know I don't remember exactly what the official name for this is.
I'm puzzled about the tape drives. There should be 1 unit with 3 tape devices in it.
BTW these are quarter track (like the old professional reel-to-reel recorders) endless loop cassettes. Very unique. I've been planning on making a CD/DVD replacement for it, but it is just another TO-DO on my list of thousands.
Texas Zepher It should have a reverb unit. That would be a brass colored box about 15 inches long 4 inches wide and an inch deep. It basically has 4 large springs in it. Has two RCA phono plugs on the side. One at either end. The stationary speaker unit is a raw circuit board with a large transformer, a couple large can capacitors, and sliver toggle. It isn't real large about 5"x5". You know I don't remember exactly what the official name for this is.
T. Z.: Thanks for the info. I'll have to look around for those other items.
UP 4-12-2 and had to sell his HO brass collection to pay for legal fees (again, I'm not making this up--I helped handle the sale of the brass collection to John Glaab).
and had to sell his HO brass collection to pay for legal fees (again, I'm not making this up--I helped handle the sale of the brass collection to John Glaab).
I'm glad to hear they went to good hands at least. John Glab is one of the credits to the Model Railroading Hobby. (But my opinion of him that both him and I are are C&O nuts.)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Texas Zepher I still haven't encountered a DCC system that can adjust the cut off well for a train under load or just drifting down hill. Even on the PFM this was a manual thing. I suppose a DCC steam sound decoder could use the "dynamic brake" function to reduce the harshness of the exhaust cut off and make it sound like the loco is "drifiting".
If the automatic load and exhaust cut off is not to your liking, you can turn on "Sound of Power" under the Q1a, Revolution, and Titan sound decoders by QSI You can "Notch up or down the chuff sound without affecting speed." They claim in the manual it allows you to do things like apply more labor when going up a hill, or less when going down, or when starting off.
I however have not used it.
Texas ZepherI still haven't encountered a DCC system that can adjust the cut off well for a train under load or just drifting down hill. Even on the PFM this was a manual thing. I suppose a DCC steam sound decoder could use the "dynamic brake" function to reduce the harshness of the exhaust cut off and make it sound like the loco is "drifiting".
The tsunami offers this option. I think it sounds pretty good...
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Video of my PFM sound in my Tenshodo GN R-2 2-8-8-2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwtHmXKgPlU
My GN railroad:
Video of a GN R-2 2-8-8-2 with PFM sound.
emdmike I would love to find one, affordably or even just get it out of my hair type deal to play around with on my small layout. I only run 2-3 PFM locomotives, nothing else. I love the old school stuff when it comes to trains, wood kits, older engines, the smell of ozone and hot oil from open frame motors. Hope to hear from some folks that still use the system ect. Mike
I have one complete with all of the tapes and have never used it on a layout. PM me about it if you are interested in it.
CZ
I am surprised no one has mentioned it, but the PFM sound system II has one of the finest DC throttles ever made. It should also be noted that the PFM sound system is analog, as is sound itself. One will hear many nuances in the sound that are lost with digital conversion. Very similar to comparing music on vinyl to that on digital media. Through large high quality speakers, the PFM unit sounds amazing.
CZ, I would love to get it a new home, but its low on my priorty list at the moment funding wise. Right now I hope to get the funds together for another engine, if the one I am selling sells. Otherwise I am close to broke train fund wise. Mike
emdmike CZ, I would love to get it a new home, but its low on my priorty list at the moment funding wise. Right now I hope to get the funds together for another engine, if the one I am selling sells. Otherwise I am close to broke train fund wise. Mike
Mike
No problem. It was just an offer if you needed the unit.
This is the PFM sound system II with a great DC throttle and has all of the options including the tape deck unit and reverb.
I am curious what it would cost me. If you want, send me a PM or email me, mtoney1 at ivytech dot edu
I really don't have any idea of a price at this time, but it would be a steal compared to what it cost new.
Let me know if you come up with something, I am going to hold off on buying another engine and try to find one of the Fujiyama for PFM ATSF cabooses. My Connie should be a good canidate for PFM sound and that system would be the icing on the cake for an old school layout to say the least. Mike
TZ pretty much covered everything pretty well. The PFM Sound System (in my opinion) has the best whistles available from any sound ever made. They were selectable and could be made to recreate any whistle I've ever heard. It came with a great manual with many of the normal whistles but if you played with the selector switches you could duplicate any whistle. Great sound!
The original system did have a terrible bell but the SSII was wonderful. The only drawbacks were cost and static/dirt. It was very susceptible to dirt......tracks, wheels, everything had to be kept really clean or you heard static throught he speakers. I installed a lot of these systems in engines and found adding extra wipers was almost mandatory for sustained good results.
At the time the system came out cams were something odd and not very common on brass steamers. A couple companies made cams that worked rather well. I remember Cantara as being the best and easiest to install. No separation of driver and axle required as it was a 2 piece brass piece that slipped over the axle. You quartered it by eyeball and soldered the pieces together and to the axle. You had to cut a hole in the driver retainer plate to clear the cam and make a wiper. Very simple operation and much better that painting the back side of a driver for contact.
The straight DC operation isn't very favorable any longer as DCC allows so much more in the way of operation. If you're doing a smaller layout with a few locomotives I'd recommend the PFM Sound. PBL continued to modify and produce their PFM clone version after PFM stopped production. It had many refinements including a hand held throttle. They no longer produce them but I would contact them for availability of used equipment or possibly parts.
I think they were better sounds than the current DCC secoders offer....especially the whistles.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Precisely why I eventualy want to get one, small layout, 1 or 2 engines max. I have no use for DCC and do not ever forsee wanting it. My other scale is G, outdoors and its battery and live steam powered. Mike
emdmikePrecisely why I eventualy want to get one, small layout, 1 or 2 engines max. I have no use for DCC and do not ever forsee wanting it. My other scale is G, outdoors and its battery and live steam powered.
Hi Jim,
I have just purchased a lovely old PFM
jrbernier I saw one a couple of years ago at a train show - For Sale. There were no takers by the end of the day. I remember when they came out in the late 60's. The steam sound was not too bad, but the 'bell' was rather horrible and the whistle was the best sound. I know PFM later released a reverb unit, and an updated system. By the mid 70's, PFM imports were on the wane and on-board sound was making itself known. The PFM sound system piped the sound over the rails to a speaker in the tender. There was no electronic chuff sync, one had to use the cam or insulation method to trigger the chuff. Also by the mid 70's, the hobby seemed to be going to walk-around throttles and early command control like the CTC-16. Sound was sort of left in the dust by the 'operator' types. I remember going to layout tours at NMRA regional meets and there always seemed to be one layout that featured a PFM sound system with one or two sound equipped engines. Jim
Any guidance you can give would be appreciated.
regards,
Andrew Thompson
Hi Texas Zepher!
I've got a question about how to output sound from PFM Minisound. I picked up a PFM Minisound 2 (plus the Quadratape system) a few days back to use it for soundeffects for some live performances I plan to put on here in Japan. I don't have any train sets, power supply, or throttle control, and I was under the mistaken impression that I could just hook the Minisound up to a mixer and play sound out through it.
So what I want to ask is how I can use the Minisound as a sound generator without hooking it up to an entire train set. Do I need a power supply, throttle, and other equipment for this to work? Any help you could give me would be immensely appreciated!
Joshua
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