PennCentral99 jeffrey-wimberly I've put your question in the reporting area where the admins will see it. Thanks Now that some of you have found the link, have you even read it? The "g-word" is NOT prohibited, which is why Jeffrey posted my question in the "admin area". What they (moderators) are enforcing and what we (forum users) see are 2 different things. So, even if they created a "sticky post", it doesn't do any good if it doesn't contain the CORRECT information.
jeffrey-wimberly I've put your question in the reporting area where the admins will see it.
I've put your question in the reporting area where the admins will see it.
Thanks
Now that some of you have found the link, have you even read it? The "g-word" is NOT prohibited, which is why Jeffrey posted my question in the "admin area". What they (moderators) are enforcing and what we (forum users) see are 2 different things.
So, even if they created a "sticky post", it doesn't do any good if it doesn't contain the CORRECT information.
PC,
FWIW: Prior to the latest upgrade, there were actually two separate "policies" listed. One was the "Forum rules" and the other was "Terms of Use". For whatever reason, these remained separate and the Terms of Use policy was never updated to include the section on graffiti. With the latest upgrade, the forum rules disappeared and the "un-updated" Terms of Use policy remained.
The post that Jeffrey originally posted on pg. 1 IS the current forum policy. Either this needs to have a prominent link...or the Terms of Use policy needs to be updated so that they are identical. If the latter then the forum rules can be eliminated altogether.
In either case, clear accessibility to the rules should be available to all forum members - whether they read them or not.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
These are things that I've failed to understand, because I've thought all along that censorship is generally a bad thing and that I should be able to say what I want to say. However, Trainsdotcom does own this Forum and because of this they have the right to block, ban, censer whatever they like.
The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) is a national organization governing Model Aviation in the U.S. They had a membership forum until a year; or, so ago, when the officers of the organization made the decision that the forum was so contentious that it had little (no) value to the organization and shut it down. Atlas Model Railroad Company also shut its' forum down, per the CEO it was the cost of running the Forum and it's time taken away from the focus of the company, that spelled its' demise.
Having been a business owner for 31 years, I would be wondering about the sensibility of having a forum where such rancor can erupt.
For me, the above answers any question I have about the how and why of running forums.
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Well as someone who has had a couple of posts locked over the years, I am pleading ignorance saying that I didn't read the guidelines regarding what could be posted. Most of it seems to be common sense and that is fine although I think reading the guidelines is tantamount to reading the fine print on a rental agreement or insurance policy. I trust the moderator's judgements and if someone goes a little overboard, then they have the authority to do what is needed, Maybe a very brief note to the OP when something does get locked would be helpful because I am still scratching my head about one of my posts that was deleted and I don't see how it violated any of the guidelines.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
jeffrey-wimberly tstage Prior to the lasest upgrade, the forum policy was easily accessible/viewable from each forum page. Now there's no longer a link at all for folks to view them. ??? Tom But you can. Go to the bottom right corner of the forum page. The link is there beside the Kalmbach logo.
tstage Prior to the lasest upgrade, the forum policy was easily accessible/viewable from each forum page. Now there's no longer a link at all for folks to view them. ??? Tom
Prior to the lasest upgrade, the forum policy was easily accessible/viewable from each forum page. Now there's no longer a link at all for folks to view them. ???
This sorta reminds me of a way they used to run the DMV here in NE Ohio many years ago. Besides the long lines, there was nothing up on the wall to indicate what you actually needed to [fill in the blank]...UNTIL you were right at the customer service window. It was downright annoying if you didn't meet all the requirements because it meant having to get the additional item(s) and stand in line again. A simple and legible sign up on the wall behind the counter could have saved everyone a lot of grief.
Had you not pointed out where the Terms of Use link was, Jeffrey, I doubt I would have ever found it. To the powers-to-be at Kalmbach: It needs to be more prominent - as it was in the past.
My ...
Would it hurt to have one perpetual sticky post?
We have one, it's entitled "Post Counts"
All of which assumes that the offending OP would read it or abide by it.
Since the offending OP has yet to be heard from since his thread was locked, we really don't know if he had any idea that he was skating on thin ice, so to speak. What's to say that he had any inkling that he was dealing with a banned topic? In other words, he might have no reason to review the forum policy if he didn't feel that he was about to do something wrong.
Even if you posted that message with each click on the New Post or Reply Button, would someone necessarily review the forum policy before posting?
I contend that the problem here was not the lack of knowledge of the forum policy or the lack of easy access to the forum policy. The banned topic was broached, the thread got locked.
Why is that so hard to accept? Apparently, it didn't bother the offending OP or, at least, he has not publicly protested the moderator's action.
Rich
Alton Junction
A lot could be solved if the hosts would change the phrase that appears at the top of the forum thread page that says "Advice, tips, questions and general information on the hobby of model railroading. If you're new here, please read our forum policies" to include a CLICKABLE LINK to the mentioned "forum policies".
-G
-G .
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maxman richhotrain Two threads got locked here as a result. The first thread was the one that mentioned the G-word. Okay, I have a question. If I remember the first post correctly, the question actually had something to do with the application, or application sequence, of decals. And the thread was locked because the subject illustrated on the decals had led to arguments in the past. Rather than locking the thread, would it not have been better for the moderators to just edit the post a little to remove the offensive word and substitute something else so that the OP could have at least received an answer to what he perceived to be an innocent question??
richhotrain Two threads got locked here as a result. The first thread was the one that mentioned the G-word.
Two threads got locked here as a result. The first thread was the one that mentioned the G-word.
Okay, I have a question. If I remember the first post correctly, the question actually had something to do with the application, or application sequence, of decals. And the thread was locked because the subject illustrated on the decals had led to arguments in the past. Rather than locking the thread, would it not have been better for the moderators to just edit the post a little to remove the offensive word and substitute something else so that the OP could have at least received an answer to what he perceived to be an innocent question??
Even though I used the word "mentioned", it was more than a mere mention.
The G-word was featured in the title. The text of the thread was about the use of .......well, you know.
The thread went so far as to ask whch types of rolling stock is preferred by bad people for this purpose.
The thread could not be saved.
If the car in the photo has it OK but no discussion.
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The rule says NO discussion. That includes decals
OK, what if someone posted a pic of a car, either prototype or model that had er, uh, lemme find the right words.....
extemporaneous art work on it either to show a particular car type or the modeler's skill at reproducing a particular car? Would that be a violation if it didn't use the proscribed word? I specifically have in mind the work of Jeff Meyer whose painting and weathering work (not to mention the unmentionable stuff) is downright amazing.
How about freight cars with chak marks applied by railroad employees (they did that, you know)?
As for other stuff (let's say passengers without tickets on trains not really meant for passengers) would that mean we really couldn't discuss movies like "Emperor Of The North", "Danger Lights", "Bound For Glory", etc., which include scenes of passengers not bearing tickets riding trains not designed for passengers? I pity the fool who dares bring up "The Great Locomotive Chase" wherein an entire train is stolen. Well, technically not stolen, the train never left the rails of the Western and Atlantic. The perps, though bearing tickets on a train designed for carrying passengers did avail themselves of facilities generally prohibited to other than employees and proceeded to destroy communtication lines, rip up rails, and commit arson on innocent freight cars all the while annoying the bejeezus out of railroad officials.
Intterestingly enough, there's no prohibition about talking about the train station scene (and on board the train) in "Some Like It Hot" where two guys are dressed up in women's clothing.
Then there's the scene in "The Flim-Flam Man" where Michael Sarrazin and George C. Scott drive a truck down what appears to be an L&N branch line. At least they do it until they meet (and I'm doing this from memory) a local freight powered by an RS-3.
These guys presumably had the permission of the railroad to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ZnWc1B7W4
If you'll excuse me, I'm now going to indulge myself in the forbidden pleasure of Grand Theft Train (aka :"Von Ryan's Express").
The problem with absolute Zero Tolerance is that it doesn't solve anything, it just shove things under the rug until it's patently obvious to everyone that there's an awfull lot of debris separating the carpet from the floor.
Andre
maxmanOkay, I have a question. If I remember the first post correctly, the question actually had something to do with the application, or application sequence, of decals. And the thread was locked because the subject illustrated on the decals had led to arguments in the past. Rather than locking the thread, would it not have been better for the moderators to just edit the post a little to remove the offensive word and substitute something else so that the OP could have at least received an answer to what he perceived to be an innocent question??
This is a line from the guidelines issued to each moderator: No discussions about graffiti. It’s vandalism. Period.
If the subject is about decals of such they can simply be described as decals, without the type name.
richhotrainTwo threads got locked here as a result. The first thread was the one that mentioned the G-word.
Also, it does appear to me to be a little hypocritical to be locking posts containing this bad word, when there was at least one recent article in our host's magazine where the topic was the application of decals which illustrated bad word.
If someone uses the G word in a post, that post can be edited or deleted without throwing out the whole thread, Rich. If an entire thread is started about the G word, it means the person is either obtuse, bent on mischief, or uneducated about the rules. Our moderators can deal with those types as and when they must. We can't stop the first two types any more than we can stop people who commit attrocities with weapons.
But, we can do something about ignorance. Education is its undoing. Why not make it easy for everyone to find the rules and to read them? I would like to think the OP in the most recently locked thread just didn't know. Why would he if there are no highly visible rules? A lone sticky post at the top of every first page is sure to be highly obvious, one to which the mods can nod when they make their point to those who commit infractions.
Crandell
I have looked and looked and can not find any where "terms of service" at the bottom of any page.
What am I missing?
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selector That isn't the issue, Rich. The issue is making more prominent the very policies our moderators have to enforce when they lock topics. I didn't know where to find the policies, and I used to 'live here', if you get what I mean. Same for Tom who admits the same thing...the rules are not evident and prominent. What newcomers must conclude is that they are also not that important. What is salient are ads and the most recently replied or posted posts and thread, but nowhere in the banner just above them does one find something that could get a well-intentioned newcomer punted or his post blocked. In fact, his post WAS permitted, against the very rules in discussion. Please, Kalmbach, place the rules more prominently, perferably in a perpetual sticky..
That isn't the issue, Rich. The issue is making more prominent the very policies our moderators have to enforce when they lock topics. I didn't know where to find the policies, and I used to 'live here', if you get what I mean. Same for Tom who admits the same thing...the rules are not evident and prominent. What newcomers must conclude is that they are also not that important. What is salient are ads and the most recently replied or posted posts and thread, but nowhere in the banner just above them does one find something that could get a well-intentioned newcomer punted or his post blocked. In fact, his post WAS permitted, against the very rules in discussion.
Please, Kalmbach, place the rules more prominently, perferably in a perpetual sticky..
Crandell, I understand that, but my point is that is doesn't matter how prominently the forum policies are posted or how obscure those forum policies may seem to be, if someone uses the G-word, the thread is going to be locked and eventually deleted.
Two threads got locked here as a result. The first thread was the one that mentioned the G-word. The second thread asked for some leeway and it too got locked. It can be no other way. The fact that the OP of the first thread may not have been aware of the forum policy is irrelevant. No discussion of.....is the forum policy. I doubt that the OP got disciplined in any way for using the G-word, so where is the harm?
kbkchooch ... We've already got one "sticky" that's become something that everyone is used to ignoring, we don't need a second.
... We've already got one "sticky" that's become something that everyone is used to ignoring, we don't need a second.
The one there currently is not really of any use at this point. Two months or more in, even the most occasional of members will have visited and noted its message. Time for it to go.
JoeinPA All of the conditions (terms) that Jeff posted are in the link at the bottom of the page. However, I think that the location is rather cryptic and it would serve the forum better if it was made more prominent. Joe
All of the conditions (terms) that Jeff posted are in the link at the bottom of the page. However, I think that the location is rather cryptic and it would serve the forum better if it was made more prominent.
Joe
I concur, it took me a minute to realize that terms of service = forum rules
That being said, maybe it just needs to be moved to a more prominent location. Like to the top of the page, put a link in red for "Forum Rules"
We've already got one "sticky" that's become something that everyone is used to ignoring, we don't need a second.
Karl
NCE über alles!
I don't see a valid argument here.
The forum policy states, "No discussion on....."
The OP of the originally locked thread was no newbie.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Edit: Selector beat me to it and I agree strongly with him.
...where our most likely runners-afoul of our forum conduct code are unlikely to find it, or to bother to look for it, prior to doing same. Hence, my question.
jeffrey-wimberly PennCentral99Can the link to that verbage be posted?Unfortunately the thread I copied that from is in the admin reporting forum which is accessible by admin personnel and moderators only. So postin g a link to it won't do any good.
PennCentral99Can the link to that verbage be posted?
So, Is this even a rule or is it an obsolete rule? There is nothing in the "terms of use" that specifically state this.
Jeff, I'm not questioning your ability to moderate. As you stated, you just enforce the rules. But, the "terms of use" must be consistent, no matter who views them. I think an administrator or someone from Kalmbach needs to clarify and/or update the "terms of use" that we see/read.
I have no problem playing by the rules as long as the "rules of engagement" are stated up front.
Edited/Deleted Content....moderator answered question.
Can the link to that verbage be posted? That is not the same verbage that in the "terms of use" at the bottom right of the page.
Here's a copy and paste of the forum policies so you can see them. Put this thread in your bookmarks so you can call it up when you want it. The moderators don't have the ability to sticky a thread so I can't sticky a thread at the top of the screen.
*
- Please keep discussions on topic (that is, railroad-related). - Your forum signature should not be used as a place to express your personal beliefs (religion, politics, marital status, sexual preference, etc.). Remember, this is a forum tied to our common bond of railroading; don’t let your personal viewpoints on unrelated topics interfere with the common reason we’re all here.- No advertising. Our forums should not be used as an advertising medium for companies who want to promote their business or products, or by individuals who want to promote their items for sale or their eBay auctions. Our users are the drivers behind this policy. They don’t want the useful information in our forums watered down with posts that are nothing more than advertisements. If you’d like to advertise on our site, scroll to the bottom of this page and click the “Advertise” link. Show promoters; check out our Coming Events section. You can post your events free; click “Add My Event” in the left column.- No swearing or foul language. And we don’t care if you use symbols to mask the words. The meaning is still conveyed and we don’t want it in our forum. Please keep in mind that we have readers of all ages. This isn’t a tavern.- No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don’t let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don’t sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so.- No political discussions or signature messages. We know, railroads are sometimes affected by politics. However, we’ve found that political discussions almost always turn into arguments. We have a common thread of being interested in railroads. Don’t let that common bond be destroyed by political differences.- No religious discussions or signature messages. For many of the same reasons as the political discussions and signatures. We all have our own views, and this isn’t the place to share them. Remember, this is a railroading forum.- No inappropriate images or videos. If you choose to post photos or links to videos, please keep them railroad-related and use your best judgment. Someone getting hit by a train or using poor judgment around a train (e.g. playing “chicken” with a train) isn’t welcome.- Don’t use our forum as a means of promoting your forum (or online group, sweepstakes, prize drawings, contests, etc.). Within your forum profile, you’re allowed to share your own Web site and Blog URL. Leave it at that. (To update your forum profile, login to the forums, then click your username where it says “Welcome back so-and-so” near the top of the forum.)- Please respect copyright material. If you want to share copyright material with our users, please link to it. Don’t take a story from another Web site and post it in our forum. Don’t take a photo that you don’t own the rights to and use it in our forum. - No discussions about graffiti. We understand that it’s a part of modern railroading and in turn something that the modelers on this forum may want to replicate. However, we’ve found that every time the topic comes up, an argument ensues because of the strong viewpoints against it. Plus, it’s vandalism and not something we want to glorify.- No discussions about hobos or the hobo lifestyle. It’s trespassing and sets a poor example for the youth that visit this forum. Plus, like graffiti discussions, it usually leads to arguments.Thanks again for joining and participating in our railroading and model train reader forum. Have fun!
Maybe a better solution is to link the rules from the text at the top of the list?...
"Advice, tips, questions and general information on the hobby of model railroading. If you're new here, please read our forum policies."
Make "our forum policies" the link to the policies page.
If you go to the directory page (http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/default.aspx) it's also just in plain text there, although repeated with each of the individual forums where they appeared listed.
Of course, it might be good to have the text in large red letters, too, when adding the link to forum policies.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL