Currently building the 25 ton switcher & was wondering if anyone else is having trouble with the directions. I built the box cab a few years back & don't remember having this much trouble. I have a suspicion that I'm getting old but would like to find at least one person that has had trouble with them so i wouldn't feel so bad. jerry
Jerry,
I'm building one right now. Is there something specific? I'm not very far along on this, as I'm waiting on a part I need for the build, but more than happy to compare notes with you.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thanks for responding. They say to put something on the top of the frame & they show it in various positions so you really don't know what is the top. When they show the sprews with the attached parts they don't mention that there are 2 sets of the parts. I think I have it figured out as far as I have gotten. I have the sub frame assembled with the pickup wires in place & the motor/gear assembly done. I think you have to be careful installing the brass strip to the motor. seems you could slide it in so it contacts the motor frame & I don't think it should touch? I'm about to start the sideframes & wheels now. I'll let you know how I make out. jerry
I was wrong on the placement of the brass strip. It's purpose is to connect the frame with the top motor brush..wish the inst. stated that. I ended up soldering the strip to the frame & brush holder. Let me know when you are ready to "Show Horn the motor in. I had to make modifications to keep the gears in mesh.I do have the chassis running on the track. My other one had the can motor. A much easier & dependable installation. jerry
It'll be tonight before I get a chance to look things over, but will respond then unless someone beats me to it.
I have heard the original motor was better (but no longer available, so the change was made), but don't have anything to compare to. If you haven't seen the bright lights of the big city, you just gotta be happy down on the farm.
This "New" motor is definitely "down on the farm".
Jerrry,
I think you're talking about the various contacts that are installed on Part 2, the Subfloor? If so, yeah, that's a little confusing.
I think I have it together per instructions, but also think it will need to be modified to isolate the motor for DCC control from the contacts. Right now, I'm pretty sure that the contacts are supposed to contact the motor directly.
Not sure about any brass strip. I don't have one in my kit. Maybe you mean the insulation over the wire that is center and goes to one end of the Subfloor? That looks like it could be a piece of brass strip, but is just the wire covered with the insulation so it doesn't touch the underside of the motor?
Greetings,
If you are going DCC you will have to change the motor hookup. The brass strip is about 1/4" long by 1/16 wide, but you probably won't be using it.
My HO layout is DCC, but I am building an HOn3 shelf layout which will be DC. I almost have the cab finished & wish they spent as much time on the mechanics as they did on the cab detailing. The 1 big problem that i can't seem to solve is the mesh between the motor worm & the drive gear. Everything just snaps together with no adjustment. I shimmed out the bottom of the gear bracket to get a tighter mesh, but when the motor is shoehorned in it opens up. Seems the motor is mounted too high & twists the bracket that the gears are mounted to. It does run, but the teeth are barely touching. Let me know if you have the same problem & what your solution is ,if any....jerry
OK, I think I understand the potential issues. I'm just not that far along. I'm waiting in one gear that was mispacked to arrive from Grandt as a replacement, then I'll be able to maybe add something constructive,
I know on the boxcabs, I remember someone saying they freed up one side and that allowed the gear to float and respond to track irregularities better. I don't know the particulars or if it even applies here.
Don't know if it'll help, given that it indicates maybe best just to drop the shell on a better chassis, but here is a link to the late, great Wolfgang Dudler's build that does that:
http://www.westportterminal.de/grandtline_25ton.html
Wolfgang also had another 25-tonner, but haven't located the build pics of it yet.
I think the brass strip may be just another version of the insulation covered wire that I have. I've had the kit about 15 years, so maybe they made a change.
I got the cab assembled & "shoehorned" it onto the chassis. wouldn't run. most probable cause would be that the cab was binding on a gear. Started shaving away on potential binding points & found it was where the bottom of the cab narrowed where the worm fits. Removed some plastic at this point & it did run but still sounds like a pencil sharpener. Still have the gear mesh problem. The gear/motor assembly pivots on the axle & when you try to push the motor down to the horizontal position the front of the motor hits on the frame & insulated wire & it springs the worm away from the drive gear. Think I will set it aside & later rerout the wires & remove some plastic from the bottom of the frame. Really liked the old can motor, but probably the cost caught up with them. This is a straight wound 3 pole giant. Can't get a smooth slow start which is what i wanted for a switcher. jerry
Hi All'
I would love to help, but am a little lost about the old & new motors, & how that relates to my inventoy stock & building experiences.On most of the kits I have, there is an open Box Frame motor similar to early 80's slot cars. I often thought of replacing these with a can motor, taken from an outdated RC servo.I would be happy to take pix of my unbuilt units to try to show what is considered the old & new mechanisms, for review & future knowledge.From that, we may be able to create a DCC help/suggestion list to get any instruction confusion cleared out.Let me know, Thanks!
Chad,
Your offer of pics is useful. Please do so, as it would be good to have comparison pics for reference.
Many thanks, I will locate, & document them, for our references.
I may be in 'left field' here, but I feel, the more we collaborate, the more information & tips we can share will benefit all. Hopefully, future patrons will also enjoy our contributions, as I am one that wished I had a resource like this 10 years ago.I hope my contributions will be worth while..
Expect a couple pix.. Heh heh...
I put one of these kits together a while back, and didn't really have much trouble getting it to work. There were a couple points in the instructions that took time to figure out, but it all went together smoothly once I understood it. Here's a picture of the completed chassis:
Hope this helped!
_________________________________________________________________
Darth, Excellent work! You set a high standard!!
GrandtLine Small Switcher Documentation; this is Kit #7091 Standard Gauge GE 25Ton End Cab Switcher, circa 2011 (as received), as from Walthers (barcode: 03000000007091E). This is to document Kit number, motor style, & included parts/contents.
Entire Kit Contents, with 6 pages of single sided copy, are cutoff in the pic.
Close-up of motor, gear/wire bag, Axles, & Box Label...
Looking for the BoxCab kit next..99% sure it has the same motor, etc.Until then, lets see if we can find some differences in some kits.I bought this same kit in 1998, (from Walthers), & to my knowledge, other than the color of the cast plastic hood sides (lighter gray), it was exactly the same. I never got one with a can motor, or different style motor, it was always like the one shown in this picture.
I am really interested in the one's that differ from this one, that would be an interesting comparison & discussion..
Thanks!
This is the same kit that I have, but the standard gauge box cab had the can motor & was much easier to assemble & ran MUCH better. If you want to add more weight to the 25 ton you have to fill the nicely detailed cab with lead. I did fill the box cab completely with lead & frosted the windows. It made for better rail contact & much better pulling. It would be nice if Grandt would change over to a brass or cast metal frame. jerry
Jerr,Since I don't know that one (version), how does that motor mount up? Is it Horizontal with the hood, or does it sit upright with the gear straight down into the truck assembly? PS, thanks for the insight, sounds nicer & classier than the current ones..Yeah, I agree on the chassis, if we had a way to mount the wheel sets in a cast cavity type chassis, she could put down the power.. However, something tells me they measured the weight, & put just enough motor in there to make it work in an unaltered state, ...but who knows???
In the box cab I made the motor sits vertical w/ fewer gears. Still can't figure out why everything in the 25 ton are such a tight fit...it's giving me a fit. jerry
When I built my first one ('98) it seemed finicky, but back then, I didn't have the tools, or with the smaller scale experience I do now. I have learned quite a bit, & at the time I really needed to learn, as I was a 1/24 modeller. I seem to recall, I really fisted & broke up the Window trim badly. It bothers me to this day...Ha hah... I hope I am getting better though, ha hah..I could not locate that Servo Can motor, I think I put it into my Electric Model Airplane storage, & there are a few smaller good motors in there, but the newer ones are 3 phase.. so, not applicable to trains right now.One thing I did remember, was that their output shafts were extremely short, to use them you would need a pilot bearing to support the end of the worm gear, or some sort transfer gear, so it would not throw the gear off the short spud..
Darth Santa Fe I put one of these kits together a while back, and didn't really have much trouble getting it to work. There were a couple points in the instructions that took time to figure out, but it all went together smoothly once I understood it. Here's a picture of the completed chassis: Hope this helped!
jerryl SNIP It would be nice if Grandt would change over to a brass or cast metal frame. jerry
SNIP
It would be nice if Grandt would change over to a brass or cast metal frame. jerry
There is a solution to getting a brass frame and other parts. Find someone who does brass casting and have them use the plastic kit parts as masters to cast them in brass.
So long as you use the kit parts as masters to make one copy, it's legit and Grandt won't have an issue with it.
Since I'm not very far along, I can't say for sure, but depending on whether or not the build will be DCC, etc, you may want to not have all parts cast as brass, since sometimes you need the insulating properties of plastic for some parts.
Sounds good, but probably a little costly. maybe some brass bar stock & drill & file it to shape.
I do remember that it was a little interesting getting the motor to sit tight and flat, but it can be done. It is actually sitting flat in the picture, and the body fits over it with less than 1mm to spare!
As for weight, I cast some lead to fit under the frame after seeing Wolfgang Dudler's (R.I.P.) 25-Ton. It's still a lightweight, but it can pull 3 cars on level track just fine.
The Boxcab now uses the same motor and gearing because the micro-gearmotor is out of production. Well, it has the same drive until I get my hands on one!
Success!! Put the pickup wires under the frame & filed some relief on the chassis & cut some of the retaining tab off & the motor snapped right in, sat flat & straight & the cab fit perfectly. I must have done something wrong to have to do these things to make it right?? jerry
I am excited at your success, all the way over here, at this distance, I really had a giant GRIN when I read your post, & thanks for sharing the excitement, -that's pretty cool man!!
That is great, you built that, & it is awesome!! What a great day!
Excellent! That's useful info for when I get to that point.
The new motor wasn't by choice as far as Grandt was concerned. The source for the old one dried up, don't remember the exact story...But the new ones do run, so I just knew you'd get this figured out one way or the other.
Now when my missing #16 Compound Gear arrives, I can join the fun.
Hi, I have this same model in H0 gauge, I removed the original electric motor and replaced it with a CD player motor, using the original gears and a NCE D13SR decoder with Vmax modified Vmax to avoid motor burnout. The CD player electric motor is much more efficient and quieter than the original.
I only need to install the headlights.
Cheers
bondesx,
Nice looking little boxcab. No chance of losing track of it in the yard with that paint
Am I right in suspecting this was one of the earlier kits that had the vertically mounted motor originally? Or did you modify the gear train on one of the later model kits to use the CD player motor?
Also, I assume you set the decoder Vmax lower because the CD player power was something like 5 volts, lower anyway than the typical ~14 volt DCC?
You're giving me some ideas for projects other than the 25 tonner and that's a good thing.
Hi, the Mabuchi electric motor was mounted vertically, and the gears are still original, the motor worm was mounted on the CD player motor (electric motor CD player was from desktop computer unit).
During decoder programming, the value of Vmax was set to 40% of the voltage delivered by the MRC Prodigy Advance.