richhotrain Doughless: Back to the original topic.... Which was ?
Doughless: Back to the original topic....
Back to the original topic....
Which was ?
Funny, I was about to edit my own post and ask that too.
- Douglas
rrebell I know what you mean, my mainline is only going to be 2 1/2 miles when finished (half done). Deciding in the beginning what types of equipment to run and what not was a challenge (only room for so many industries on that short a layout). But my main driving force is to do it at top quality level but at a cheap price. Only a few cars do I pay over $10 for but I have cars like Intermountain RTR's and others in abundance (picked up bit by bit over the years),
I know what you mean, my mainline is only going to be 2 1/2 miles when finished (half done). Deciding in the beginning what types of equipment to run and what not was a challenge (only room for so many industries on that short a layout). But my main driving force is to do it at top quality level but at a cheap price. Only a few cars do I pay over $10 for but I have cars like Intermountain RTR's and others in abundance (picked up bit by bit over the years),
The fun is also finding the stuff you want at the right price.
Doughless Back to the original topic....
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL "Having never owned a mainline layout such as yours, when do you justify "expanding the roster"? And does the railroad ever streamline the roster?" Those are valid and interesting questions. For me there is a "master roster" in my head, some of which are models not currently available at any price, others not as necessary for regular operations but desired for the ulimate flexiblity of operations. Just like a real division of a real Class I railroad in my era and locale, the roster is based on the needs of the shedule, number of trains, tonnage, speeds, etc. With allowances for reserve power for breakdowns, extra trains etc. A big part of the operational scheme is the customary power changes on thru trains at the division point yard. So for example, a 40 car freight train pulled by two Mikados (needed for the ruling grade), will require two more Mikados waiting in the engine terminal for that power change. Locos are generally bought in pairs or greater to give that "big railroad" feel to the roster. The roster has been developed to reflect what such a railroad would have logicly owned and used for the various types of traffic the layout simulates. And the motive power has been selected and detailed to give a 'family" look. Example - some wheel arrangements are simply excluded by virtue of the fact that east coast railroads typically did not use them. There is a complete "history" to the logic behind the roster based on the history of motive power on actual roads like the B&O and the C&O - which I also model and which interchange with the ATLANTIC CNTRAL. Being the early 50's most diesels are run in matched sets, ABBA or ABA EMD F units and Alco FA units, or 3-4 unit sets of GP7's, RS-3's, etc. Back to the meat of your questions - the roster is about 90% complete, so expanding the roster is now limited to fine tuning loco assignments and filling in those "missing" locos if something new apears on the market that fills the need. Example - if someone like Bachmann came out with a B&O class B18 ten wheeler next week I would buy three or four right away - until then we do without or hope to find a few brass ones at a reasonable price. At this point there is not, and has never been any desire to streamline the roster because all addtions are carefully considered. Except maybe one or two times when a model was purchased and did not meet my expectations. Example - I purchased the Proto EMD F7's undecorated when they first came out, only to find the undecorated version only came with a 1960's moderized shell (fuel tank skirts removed, etc) that did not fit my era - I promptly sold them off, never even took two of the three out of the box. I only need to own the models that make the layout what I want it to be - the rest I am happy to admire on the layouts of others. 40 years in this hobby - never owned a Big Boy or a PRR K4, etc - never modeled the UP or the PRR Sheldon
"Having never owned a mainline layout such as yours, when do you justify "expanding the roster"? And does the railroad ever streamline the roster?"
Those are valid and interesting questions. For me there is a "master roster" in my head, some of which are models not currently available at any price, others not as necessary for regular operations but desired for the ulimate flexiblity of operations.
Just like a real division of a real Class I railroad in my era and locale, the roster is based on the needs of the shedule, number of trains, tonnage, speeds, etc. With allowances for reserve power for breakdowns, extra trains etc.
A big part of the operational scheme is the customary power changes on thru trains at the division point yard. So for example, a 40 car freight train pulled by two Mikados (needed for the ruling grade), will require two more Mikados waiting in the engine terminal for that power change.
Locos are generally bought in pairs or greater to give that "big railroad" feel to the roster. The roster has been developed to reflect what such a railroad would have logicly owned and used for the various types of traffic the layout simulates. And the motive power has been selected and detailed to give a 'family" look. Example - some wheel arrangements are simply excluded by virtue of the fact that east coast railroads typically did not use them. There is a complete "history" to the logic behind the roster based on the history of motive power on actual roads like the B&O and the C&O - which I also model and which interchange with the ATLANTIC CNTRAL.
Being the early 50's most diesels are run in matched sets, ABBA or ABA EMD F units and Alco FA units, or 3-4 unit sets of GP7's, RS-3's, etc.
Back to the meat of your questions - the roster is about 90% complete, so expanding the roster is now limited to fine tuning loco assignments and filling in those "missing" locos if something new apears on the market that fills the need. Example - if someone like Bachmann came out with a B&O class B18 ten wheeler next week I would buy three or four right away - until then we do without or hope to find a few brass ones at a reasonable price.
At this point there is not, and has never been any desire to streamline the roster because all addtions are carefully considered. Except maybe one or two times when a model was purchased and did not meet my expectations. Example - I purchased the Proto EMD F7's undecorated when they first came out, only to find the undecorated version only came with a 1960's moderized shell (fuel tank skirts removed, etc) that did not fit my era - I promptly sold them off, never even took two of the three out of the box.
I only need to own the models that make the layout what I want it to be - the rest I am happy to admire on the layouts of others.
40 years in this hobby - never owned a Big Boy or a PRR K4, etc - never modeled the UP or the PRR
Sheldon
Fair enough. I was wondering why the roster wasn't satisfied back when you bought the bunch of gp7's for $39 each, and you had to now watch one on ebay for $70. It sounds like you just came up short one loco relative to what you eventually needed. That's a little different than what I would call expanding the roster, but its just wording.
tstage The REST of the story... eBay buyer, 4***s, purchases CMW Mini Metals '41 (blue) Plymouth coupe for over $71. Despite the low shipping cost, he's later caught on camera distraught with buyer's remorse...because he REALLY wanted the red one.
The REST of the story...
eBay buyer, 4***s, purchases CMW Mini Metals '41 (blue) Plymouth coupe for over $71. Despite the low shipping cost, he's later caught on camera distraught with buyer's remorse...because he REALLY wanted the red one.
Tom, sorry to contradict you, but I believe that it is actually the fella who came in second in the auction after he realized that he could have won the auction for the Mini Metals car with one more bid of $72.
Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless, That's a fine approach, which I completely understand, and would never criticize. At the same time it does not suit my modeling goals or interests. I'm generally a bargin shopper when it comes to this hobby, but when conditions warrant, I spend what it takes to meet my goals. I bought lots of Proto2000 locos when TrainWorld and others were dumping them cheap - that does not mean I would not pay more for the next one I decided the roster needed. BUT, I don't "get tired" of stuff and sell it off, it's just not my nature. That's stuff I never chose to buy in the first place. Sheldon
Doughless,
That's a fine approach, which I completely understand, and would never criticize.
At the same time it does not suit my modeling goals or interests.
I'm generally a bargin shopper when it comes to this hobby, but when conditions warrant, I spend what it takes to meet my goals.
I bought lots of Proto2000 locos when TrainWorld and others were dumping them cheap - that does not mean I would not pay more for the next one I decided the roster needed.
BUT, I don't "get tired" of stuff and sell it off, it's just not my nature. That's stuff I never chose to buy in the first place.
Sheldon,
That's interesting. My original post was supporting the idea that the prices were reflective of someone wanting the item, and that questioning his goals were futile. I thought it was an outrageous price for the CMV, admitting that my opinion reflected my ignorance about CMW vehicles.
OT:
Different goals warrant different approaches maybe. Since I model a modern shortline, I need only one locomotive, but choose to have three, and yet more just to run. Its difficult to "expand the roster", without changing the flavor of the railroad. My additional purchases are just for fickle pleasure, to be sold off if no longer interesting.
Having never owned a mainline layout such as yours, when do you justify "expanding the roster"? And does the railroad ever streamline the roster?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The CMW cars are typically about $12-15 retail, but I have a lot of the tractor trailers, buses, etc - all in the $20 to $30 range.
I'm big into the 1950's piggyback thing.
Still, if you want it and there are no more in the normal supply chain.........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless: While the price for the 4 hoppers I can understand, the price for the little car seems outrageous. But that's because I understand the market for hopper cars, and know the alternatives. I do not understand the market for CMW cars. For most things, there is an established market. For things that are collectible, even like a real 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible, two bidders can get into a competition. That doesn't mean that the price reflects market value and that the winner has set a new level. Instead of going 'round and 'round with terms like worth and value, it may be helpful if some more knowledgeable members filled us in as to the rarity of the little car so we may gauge for ourselves if we should be ready to pony up $70 for the next car that goes on sale, or if we could sell the one we have for that much. That brings up another strange way of thinking, that because I suddenly find out something I own is worth more than I thought that I should or would sell it all of a sudden? Who does that? I have the things I have because I want or need them, I am not "holding" them as investments. I have rental property for that. They have not yet printed enough money to pry my GRAVELY tractor or my model trains from my hands - why? In the case of the tractor, they are no longer made, and I need it, and nothing on the market today suits my needs as well as it does, and nothing on the market today is as well made or likley to last as long, and tractors like mine are hard to find on the used market, especially in the condtion mine is in and with the features it has - basicly to me it is priceless. My trains generally represent models I have built or kit basehed over a 40 plus year existance in this hobby. Most ofthe models are no longer generally available - they are not for sale - you don't have enough money. Admittedly this attitude also comes from the fact that I don't need the money - and I want to retain the items. I have a lot of CMW cars/trucks on my layout, they were not cheap, typically $20-$30 each plus or minus. So three or four times that for something not readily available does not seem outragous to me - again, if you really want it and can afford it. Let's talk about being able to aford something for a moment - being able to aford something does NOT mean conforming to someone elses values or priorities in your spending. It simply means you have the money and it will not negatively effect your other needs/wants and obligations. So basicly many of us chose to aford some things and chose not to aford others. Maybe you chose to aford a new expensive car and the other guy choses to drive a used car and buy $70 CMW HO scale models. I chose to aford the oil bill and electric of a 4000 sq ft house, and the propane bill to heat a 30,000 gal swimming pool - I chose not to aford fancy vacations over seas or the ownership of a boat. Yet I know world travelers and boat owners who live in modest condos. Just because you would not pay a specific price for something, does not mean anything - If my sense of value was used as a guide - Broadway Limited and MTH would have been out of business years ago. Sheldon
Doughless: While the price for the 4 hoppers I can understand, the price for the little car seems outrageous. But that's because I understand the market for hopper cars, and know the alternatives. I do not understand the market for CMW cars. For most things, there is an established market. For things that are collectible, even like a real 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible, two bidders can get into a competition. That doesn't mean that the price reflects market value and that the winner has set a new level. Instead of going 'round and 'round with terms like worth and value, it may be helpful if some more knowledgeable members filled us in as to the rarity of the little car so we may gauge for ourselves if we should be ready to pony up $70 for the next car that goes on sale, or if we could sell the one we have for that much.
While the price for the 4 hoppers I can understand, the price for the little car seems outrageous.
But that's because I understand the market for hopper cars, and know the alternatives. I do not understand the market for CMW cars.
For most things, there is an established market. For things that are collectible, even like a real 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible, two bidders can get into a competition. That doesn't mean that the price reflects market value and that the winner has set a new level.
Instead of going 'round and 'round with terms like worth and value, it may be helpful if some more knowledgeable members filled us in as to the rarity of the little car so we may gauge for ourselves if we should be ready to pony up $70 for the next car that goes on sale, or if we could sell the one we have for that much.
That brings up another strange way of thinking, that because I suddenly find out something I own is worth more than I thought that I should or would sell it all of a sudden?
Who does that? I have the things I have because I want or need them, I am not "holding" them as investments. I have rental property for that. They have not yet printed enough money to pry my GRAVELY tractor or my model trains from my hands - why? In the case of the tractor, they are no longer made, and I need it, and nothing on the market today suits my needs as well as it does, and nothing on the market today is as well made or likley to last as long, and tractors like mine are hard to find on the used market, especially in the condtion mine is in and with the features it has - basicly to me it is priceless.
My trains generally represent models I have built or kit basehed over a 40 plus year existance in this hobby. Most ofthe models are no longer generally available - they are not for sale - you don't have enough money.
Admittedly this attitude also comes from the fact that I don't need the money - and I want to retain the items.
I have a lot of CMW cars/trucks on my layout, they were not cheap, typically $20-$30 each plus or minus. So three or four times that for something not readily available does not seem outragous to me - again, if you really want it and can afford it.
Let's talk about being able to aford something for a moment - being able to aford something does NOT mean conforming to someone elses values or priorities in your spending. It simply means you have the money and it will not negatively effect your other needs/wants and obligations.
So basicly many of us chose to aford some things and chose not to aford others. Maybe you chose to aford a new expensive car and the other guy choses to drive a used car and buy $70 CMW HO scale models.
I chose to aford the oil bill and electric of a 4000 sq ft house, and the propane bill to heat a 30,000 gal swimming pool - I chose not to aford fancy vacations over seas or the ownership of a boat. Yet I know world travelers and boat owners who live in modest condos.
Just because you would not pay a specific price for something, does not mean anything - If my sense of value was used as a guide - Broadway Limited and MTH would have been out of business years ago.
You've explained your philosophy, now here's mine:
I don't necessarily approach my hobby spending the same way as spending for something I really need, like houses, cars (nonhobby), and lawn mowers, etc.. Model trains are a consumer item, not a utilitarian need. The things I need, I keep until they wear out and I need a new one.
In addition to modeling a modern shortline as accurately as possible, I also use the layout to run different locomotives, just because I like to see different locomotives run the dogbone. Its a part of the hobby I enjoy. I also like to repair broken used ones, detail them, generally make poor ones better. I guess its part of the modeler in me. Although I do model a modern shortline, I do collect things that I do not "need" for the layout. When something is cheap, I may buy it. OTOH, since there are no needs in the model train world, I will not buy something if it is expensive, even if I can afford it.
When Trainworld was selling P2K S1' s for $25, I bought 2 more than I needed just because I liked them and they were cheap. I still like watching the silver and maroon GM&O twins circle the dogbone. Just like I've bought some things because I liked them and they were a good deal, I may sell some things because I no longer want them and it seems like a good deal.
I do not buy an hold for investment, but every decision, whether buying or selling, is price sensitive. This philosophy is related to the "do you have a budget" thread. Personally, I don't understand bidding wars. There is nothing in this hobby I need.
Thanks for the update on the prices of new CMW cars. I didn't know they were so expensive. If I find one for $10, I may buy one just to see what all of the fuss is about.
richhotrain mononguy63: richhotrain: Is the guy who pays $495 to play Pebble Beach crazy? Well, personally, I think anyone who pays to play golf is crazy. Of course, I quit the game because I was exquisitely bad at it... Heck, I am exquisitely bad at it, but I still play it, and I pay for it. I'm crazy. Rich
mononguy63: richhotrain: Is the guy who pays $495 to play Pebble Beach crazy? Well, personally, I think anyone who pays to play golf is crazy. Of course, I quit the game because I was exquisitely bad at it...
richhotrain: Is the guy who pays $495 to play Pebble Beach crazy?
Well, personally, I think anyone who pays to play golf is crazy. Of course, I quit the game because I was exquisitely bad at it...
Heck, I am exquisitely bad at it, but I still play it, and I pay for it. I'm crazy.
Another perfect example - you could not pay me to even own a set of golf clubs, let alone get $19 out of my pocket to go for that walk - but I don't think Rich is crazy for doing so.
Here is a strickly model train example:
I chose to own 130 non sound, non DCC locos at an average cost of about $100 each - rather than 60 sound decoder equiped ones.
I chose to build my own complex DC control system with built in signaling, CTC and turnout control for a total cost of about $3000 rather than have a DCC system with DCC controlled turnouts and computer based CTC and signaling which for my layout size/trackage would easily cost $5000 to $6000.
I chose to have a layout that has about 8 scale miles of double track mainline and stagging for about 25 trains rather than have a smaller layout and have DCC and sound.
I chose to be satisfied with a large percentage of my rolling stock being simple Blue Box quality detail so that I can have the 800 plus freight cars and 300 passenger cars it takes to run those 25 trains which are typically 35-40 cars long each for freight and 12 to 15 cars long for passenger.
BUT I chose to invest in Kadee brand couplers for all that rolling stock and Kadee sprung metal trucks with Intermountain wheels for most all of those 800 freight cars.
That's what I CHOSE - given the same resources I'm sure most of you would/do chose differently - actually I'm happy you do chose differently.
My self esteem is not one bit invested in your opinion of my choices - if it was I would likely have 30 BLI locos, a Digitrax DCC system, and a layout without signals - nothing about that would make me happy - in fact if that was how I "had" to build a model railroad, I would not be in this hobby.
mononguy63 richhotrain: Is the guy who pays $495 to play Pebble Beach crazy? Well, personally, I think anyone who pays to play golf is crazy. Of course, I quit the game because I was exquisitely bad at it...
richhotrainIs the guy who pays $495 to play Pebble Beach crazy?
WOW, what a "spirited" discussion has ensued, just because I thought someone paid Kadee prices for Blue Box equipment (that's a variation on the Cadillac/Chevy adage, by the way).
Since it's getting really hot here again, as well as outside (har!), this looks like a good evening to go to the basement and maybe make me another Monon hopper. Gotta check the decal supply...
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Hey, it costs $495 to play a round of golf at Pebble Beach, plus $35 for the cart.
I can walk my local municipal course for $19.
Is the guy who pays $495 to play Pebble Beach crazy?
I paid $8.25 per beer at the Twins game the other night. Now that is crazy! Actually, I had a few so I guess I'm crazy!
Doughless While the price for the 4 hoppers I can understand, the price for the little car seems outrageous. But that's because I understand the market for hopper cars, and know the alternatives. I do not understand the market for CMW cars. For most things, there is an established market. For things that are collectible, even like a real 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible, two bidders can get into a competition. That doesn't mean that the price reflects market value and that the winner has set a new level. Instead of going 'round and 'round with terms like worth and value, it may be helpful if some more knowledgeable members filled us in as to the rarity of the little car so we may gauge for ourselves if we should be ready to pony up $70 for the next car that goes on sale, or if we could sell the one we have for that much.
rrebell Last two cents before the lock!!!!!!!!! This shows how some people just don't understand economics.
Last two cents before the lock!!!!!!!!! This shows how some people just don't understand economics.
This thread is going to be locked? Oh, goody. Can we talk about graffiti now?
Milepost 266.2 ATLANTIC CENTRAL: It is amazing that so many are so concerned with how others spend their money. It's indicative of a lack of perspective or value. A little car is simply not worth $70 under any circumstances. A $200 locomotive (even if it was selling for $39 a few years back) could have been bought for very specific modelling purposes. I highly doubt the collector mentality that pays for these little metal cars would let him ever take it out of the packaging. Sometimes there aren't two sides to every story, and not everything need be "fair and balanced". The guy who paid $70 for that little car paid too much. Period.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: It is amazing that so many are so concerned with how others spend their money.
It is amazing that so many are so concerned with how others spend their money.
It's indicative of a lack of perspective or value. A little car is simply not worth $70 under any circumstances. A $200 locomotive (even if it was selling for $39 a few years back) could have been bought for very specific modelling purposes. I highly doubt the collector mentality that pays for these little metal cars would let him ever take it out of the packaging.
Sometimes there aren't two sides to every story, and not everything need be "fair and balanced". The guy who paid $70 for that little car paid too much. Period.
tstage We can round and round and round on this. As I said before, folks will pay what they want for what they want. If they think something is worth $70 and I think it's work $15, they are more than welcome to pay the $70 for it...and I'll spend my $15 somewhere else. More power to 'em... Tom
We can round and round and round on this. As I said before, folks will pay what they want for what they want. If they think something is worth $70 and I think it's work $15, they are more than welcome to pay the $70 for it...and I'll spend my $15 somewhere else. More power to 'em...
Tom
Amen.
Time to lock it.
We can round and round and round on this. As I said before, folks will pay what they want for what they want. If they think something is worth $70 and I think it's worth $15, they are more than welcome to pay the $70 for it...and I'll spend my $15 somewhere else. More power to 'em...
Milepost 266.2 The guy who paid $70 for that little car paid too much. Period.
The guy who paid $70 for that little car paid too much. Period.
Says you.
The guy who paid $70 might not think so.
Value is relative. Value is subjective.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It is amazing that so many are so concerned with how others spend their money.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL One more thought: Maybe the guy who paid $222 for the Proto2000 GP9 was not foolish at all, maybe all those dealers who dumped them 5 years ago for $39 were the foolish ones. Sheldon
One more thought:
Maybe the guy who paid $222 for the Proto2000 GP9 was not foolish at all, maybe all those dealers who dumped them 5 years ago for $39 were the foolish ones.
Because it is fun to second guess people and a lot cheaper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!