I am going to lock this one!
Comments are invited to the "Modeling on a shoestring" thread.
I guess one thing we need to ask NP what is to much? Is it $200, $150, $100, $75? I just picked up 2 Proto 1000 F3's both powered for $69.00, is that more than the original wants to pay?
Ken
I hate Rust
If the original poster doesn't come back in here to debate or discuss, the original post is basically nothing but trolling and the forum equivilent of a drive by egging.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The hobby is "getting more" expensive?
I used to go down to the corner store and buy a Sunday Newspaper, pick up a Pennysaver paper, and a freshly made suasage/egg/cheese muffin sandwich. It came to exactly $3.15. The Sunday paper was $1.75 and the Pennysaver paper was free. One Sunday not to long ago I went in and the NEW guy behind the counter punched in my purchases and MADE ME CHOKE when he said "that will be $5.15 please"!!! I said, but the Pennysaver is "free"!!! He said "I know, I only charged you for the Sunday Paper and the sandwich. The Sunday paper is now $3.00"!!
They didn't fool around raising the price of the Sunday paper!!! At nearly about plus a 72% increase!!! In just ONE WEEk!!!
WE were looking at a particular model of car that the 2012 models start at base price around $16K,and the model on the lot we were looking at was $19,500. I checked the other day for the new 2013 models, thinking maybe better wait for the new models to come out. The starting base price is NOW $19K +!!! That puts the new out of our current budget at all!!! AND the 2012s aren't to appealing with what is left, or is out of our range with the fancy extras we don't need.
The point is that EVERYTHING has gone up lately, somethings more than others! At sometimes outrageous amounts!
ANY hobby can be expensive and some are VERY Expensive! Such as : car racing, flying, remote control cars/planes, etc.
You can get brand new Bachmann locos diesels for around $50 with DCC onBoard, and Bachmann Steamers for around $100- $120 with DCC.
The hobby is only as expensive as you make it. If you adore the $300 locos, save your monthly hobby budget till you have enough to buy one. Save your budget for what ever you need. try scratch building. Go to train shows looking for baragains. CHeck Ebay if you like to buy stuff that way. These ar just some options.
Have fun, it is a hobby.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Larry... great suggestions there!!
Ulrich: Agree totally...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
BRAKIE Guys,If I may. After all is said and done and the smoke clears the finger needs pointed to us simply because many of us ran our pie holes and ask for better details,then we asked for road specific details,then DCC ready,then DCC/Sound and then we asked for detailed RTR cars.. The manufacturers oblige us and we are paying the price for our request. As far as BB kits Athearn has said time and again the sales of BB kits dropped 80% over the years but,some won't listen and fully believe its a RTR conspiracy. Even today there are still hundreds of BB kits to be found at train shows and on e-Bay..Where are the buyers for the BB car kits when they can be had for 3/$10.00 at train shows? Those old BB boxes has been packed and repacked so many times the boxes are worn. Why aren't they buying the used Athearn cars ast $4-6.00 each at train shows? Wheres are the buyers for Walthers Train Line cars,the Accurail kits or the Trainman cars? As for locomotives how about the newer Bachmann DCC on board locomotive for less then $50.00? Not enough detail? Then add the detail or buy the high end locomotives. As far as DCC system a Bachmann E-Z Command DCC can be had for less then $100.00 including locomotive. Maybe its time to rethink you modeling standards versus your hobby budget. Of course modeling a one or two locomotive short line may be the answer for many and limiting the high end freight cars to say 50 or 60-just enough to cover rotating the cars between operation sessions. A smaller layout may be required-a modern designed switching layout doesn't require a second home mortgage to build.
Guys,If I may.
After all is said and done and the smoke clears the finger needs pointed to us simply because many of us ran our pie holes and ask for better details,then we asked for road specific details,then DCC ready,then DCC/Sound and then we asked for detailed RTR cars..
The manufacturers oblige us and we are paying the price for our request.
As far as BB kits Athearn has said time and again the sales of BB kits dropped 80% over the years but,some won't listen and fully believe its a RTR conspiracy.
Even today there are still hundreds of BB kits to be found at train shows and on e-Bay..Where are the buyers for the BB car kits when they can be had for 3/$10.00 at train shows? Those old BB boxes has been packed and repacked so many times the boxes are worn.
Why aren't they buying the used Athearn cars ast $4-6.00 each at train shows?
Wheres are the buyers for Walthers Train Line cars,the Accurail kits or the Trainman cars?
As for locomotives how about the newer Bachmann DCC on board locomotive for less then $50.00? Not enough detail? Then add the detail or buy the high end locomotives.
As far as DCC system a Bachmann E-Z Command DCC can be had for less then $100.00 including locomotive.
Maybe its time to rethink you modeling standards versus your hobby budget.
Of course modeling a one or two locomotive short line may be the answer for many and limiting the high end freight cars to say 50 or 60-just enough to cover rotating the cars between operation sessions.
A smaller layout may be required-a modern designed switching layout doesn't require a second home mortgage to build.
Well said BRAKIE. Took the words right out of my mouth.
The hobby is evolving and those unwilling to evolve with it will get left behind (by stubborness/choice). It's human nature to resist change but I've had to overcome that stigma and adjust accordingly.
For those on fixed incomes as a result of retirement, I recommend going back to the strategies of your youth and save pennies (I do that now and I am nowhere near retirement)
~Kyle
The Mary Lindsay Railroad - Featuring Amtrak Model Trains Your HO Rail Journey Starts Here.........
www.marylindsayrr.vze.com (Last Update: 5/31/12)
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
How many times has this issue been raised in the last 12 months? I have given up on counting.
I am sick and tired of these kvetching threads, as they lead nowhere. The industry won´t lower their prices, just because a bunch of folks kvetch about high prices in a forum.
C´mon, folks, we can do better! How about a thread on model railroading on a shoestring budget?
OK, so the OP started a thread which has been the topic of many similar threads.
But, he is right.
All of the righteous statements to the contrary, this hobby has gotten more and more expensive over the past few years. I am convinced that the reason is greed, manufacturer greed. The generation that principally supports this hobby is retired, or nearing retirement. It can afford to pay more. It wants a hobby that reflects its youth. It is willing to pay.
Just look at the cost of locomotives, speciality track like a double slip or a double crossover, a Walthers Cornerstone structure, a bottle of Woodland Scenics ballast. Go back and look at a 5 or 10 year old Walthers catalog. Prices have gone up far in excess of inflation.
I started in this hobby 9 years ago. Prices have doubled on many items. That's the equivalent of 8 percent per year.
It's nuts, and it will contribute to the doom of the model railroading hobby.
Rich
Alton Junction
The prices would come down if the manufacturers made more units per production run, but they don't want to take that risk any more. It seems like everything is a limited edition nowadays.
I'm new so I can't say I miss the kit days.
E-bay has plenty of locomotives which don't work or are advertised as "broken" and they sell for relatively cheap. Someone who is into building and rebuilding can find some bargains there and get their tools out.
NP2626 I left this hobby to return to building and flying R/C model airplanes in 2005. My interest in Model Railroading didn't cease, it just went dormant for a few years. I came back to the hobby around the end of last year. I have been very dismayed by how expensive this hobby has gotten in the 7 or so years since I set it aside. At the time I left it, it was shortly after Horizon Hobbies had bought out Athearn and MDC Roundhouse and I understood that this change was going to change their equipment to RTR. However, Horizon/Athearn still advertised that kits would remain available. If this was true, it had to have been only during the time I was away. My critique of this hobby has more to do with what happened than just with Athearn/MDC. Across the board everything has gotten considerably higher priced! At the beginning of 2009, I was laid off from my job, like many people at that time. For a year and a month I worked diligently at trying to find work and eventually I was called back to my previous employer at the same time as my wife lost her job! So, my buying power (like for so many other people) has taken a real nose dive! Simply put, I can't afford $200.00 locomotives! I'm O.K., I guess as I have a good selection of locomotives, still I really enjoyed building them and there really isn't any kits for locos anymore! I'm glad it appears the majority of Model Rails seem fine with $200.00-$400.00 locomotives! But, it seems that now when I'm getting close to retirement and could really devote time to this hobby, it is pricing itself out of my price range! Please, if you think I need some type of lecture on economics, consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world.
I left this hobby to return to building and flying R/C model airplanes in 2005. My interest in Model Railroading didn't cease, it just went dormant for a few years. I came back to the hobby around the end of last year. I have been very dismayed by how expensive this hobby has gotten in the 7 or so years since I set it aside. At the time I left it, it was shortly after Horizon Hobbies had bought out Athearn and MDC Roundhouse and I understood that this change was going to change their equipment to RTR. However, Horizon/Athearn still advertised that kits would remain available. If this was true, it had to have been only during the time I was away.
My critique of this hobby has more to do with what happened than just with Athearn/MDC. Across the board everything has gotten considerably higher priced! At the beginning of 2009, I was laid off from my job, like many people at that time. For a year and a month I worked diligently at trying to find work and eventually I was called back to my previous employer at the same time as my wife lost her job! So, my buying power (like for so many other people) has taken a real nose dive! Simply put, I can't afford $200.00 locomotives! I'm O.K., I guess as I have a good selection of locomotives, still I really enjoyed building them and there really isn't any kits for locos anymore!
I'm glad it appears the majority of Model Rails seem fine with $200.00-$400.00 locomotives! But, it seems that now when I'm getting close to retirement and could really devote time to this hobby, it is pricing itself out of my price range!
Please, if you think I need some type of lecture on economics, consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world.
Atlas is selling the Branchline line of kits although the blueprint series are not shake the box models they are very nice models. Accurail makes a nice line of kits that are very easy to put together much like the old blue box but the kits seem to be better than the bluebox variety. Tichy and Bowser still make kits and some are available on the intermountain web site.
As to locomotives the newer locomotives are a great deal more detailed than they were in the past and many come with sound and dcc, some are available with just dcc, some just dc. In some areas things have gotten a lot cheaper for example dcc. I remember a time when decoders were available and cost nearly 100.00 each, much more than the locomotives they were controlling. So some things have gone up in price and others have gone down.
On the plus side quality model railroad items generally last much longer than almost everything else we buy. Just think how much more money you would have to spend if you were not spending 100's of dollars on cell phones every year or cable tv etc. You can fill in your own version of overpriced items we all seem to think we need now.
One way I have found to stretch my dollars is to join a club. My club has an excellent layout and a small but very talented group of modelers. I now feel like a millionaire, I have a huge layout, lots of equipment and a bunch of guys that help to keep everything working. Some of the guys don't have home layouts, the club layout is their layout.
In closing when money is tight you must make more selective choices than in times of plenty. There is still a lot of hobby to be had for a reduced budget.
NP2626 I'm O.K., I guess as I have a good selection of locomotives, still I really enjoyed building them and there really isn't any kits for locos anymore! I'm glad it appears the majority of Model Rails seem fine with $200.00-$400.00 locomotives! But, it seems that now when I'm getting close to retirement and could really devote time to this hobby, it is pricing itself out of my price range!
I have plenty of decent HO diesels which I paid between $60 and $99, never mind your ?? $200-$400 ?? "straw man" figure. Sure, knock that old straw man down... I've only paid $120 for one Genesis Diesel and $150 ea for two Atlas GP40-2's with sound - those are the only exceptions in my fleet of around $14x diesels. Or aren't Atlas, Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000, Athearn RTR, KATO etc, considered "decent".
Well, if you want kit loco's - oh, wait, they don't exist anymore... just stay away from the big train shows because you might find some of those kit loco's there. I've been visiting the Timonium show almost quarterly and kits garlore, some with major trains shows in all the other places I've lived.
*sigh* in before the lock.
If it is hard for us to make a living and still play in whatever hobby we like, it is much the same sea for the manufacturers and importers. The waves are just as high, just as frequent, and the water every bit as cold. The market has changed in the past six or seven years, not the least of which would be more people trying out DCC and DCC/sound. Those models don't come cheaply, although I see that BLI has just announced a new run (new tooling) of a Norfolk & Western J Class (MTH has their first set of tooling won in a lawsuit) that trainworld is offering for what their first Paragon Hudson went for seven years ago. That's DCC with sound. They are also going to run their second issue of the new Paragon2 Hudson itself, for the same price. I had to do a double take when I saw the price trainworld wants for a J when MTH's version of the BLI version goes for about twice as much. Personally, I hope BLI sells three seacans full of those.
Which reminds me, if these two engines come to fruition, and the USRA Pacific they announced a month ago, I will have to eat my words in that other recent thread about the demise of steam. I wonder what they'll taste like with a Coke.
Crandell
NP2626,I just went over to Horizon's R/C website, and I saw a ARF P-47 by Hanger 9 that retails for $1150. Does that make the R/C airplane hobby prohibitively expensive?Horizon bought Athearn and Roundhouse in 2004. The Blue Box kits were discontinued in 2009, while Roundhouse kits were discontinued when Horizon bought them in the first place. Quite frankly, Roundhouse kits were showing their age for the most part, with their cast underframes with heavy flashing on all parts. I understand why they were stopped. Blue Box kits were dropped when Horizon decided to move all production to China, and the Chinese told them that the kits would cost the same if they were kits or RTR. So Athearn went all RTR.
If you can't afford $200, then don't buy them. I see great autos on the road for $50,000, yet I drive a Ford bought used.
Go to a train show. Go on eBay. Find a discount hobby shop. Nobody in this hobby is forcing you to buy $200 - $400 engines. Heck, I've found new-in-the-box loco kits at train shows. You just gotta look.
And new engines? Atlas Trainman GP38-2's are $!20 MSRP. Atlas Classic engines are $130 or less. Walthers Mainline engines (RS-2 and DL109) are $125 (some Proto 1000 RS-2's are $100). Walthers Trainline engines are $65, $55, and $50 (F40PH, GP9M, FA-1). Bachmann has some decent engines, too. The new 2-6-0's are $125. 70tonners are $90, and S-4's are $100. What price do you want to pay?
Paul A. Cutler III
Yep...must be time for one of these threads again....
Believe it or not...you can get some pretty good deals out of LHS's and sites like HOInterchange...just look for them.....
Athearn only recently announced no more Blue Box kits - so they did keep making kits past 2005.
As for 'decent' locos, well, I run a lot of Proto 2000 locos, and almost every loco I own cost me $40 or less, through careful shopping on eBay and at trains hows. Granted, these for the most part are not anythign made in the past 3-5 years - very little has been made recently that appeals to me, as I model a specific railroad, in the mod 19050's. So all this modern and second generation power - not the least bit interested. I have a fe newer locos, but the only thing I padi even close to MSRP for is my MTH FA-FB set, and considering they both are pwoered and both have sound, they weren't all that expensive. My recent run Atlas Trainmaster, I got the sound and DCC one for less than the list price of the non-sound, just by watchign ebay for a couple of months.
As stated, you cna spend as much or as little as you liek in this hobby. It's funny the way people jump on the latest release like you will never see it again, and then a few months later there are a bunch on eBay - buyer's remorse? Left the hobby because they bought a giant articualted steam loco and it won;t negotiate 18" radius curves? Or just people who buy a dozen with intent to sell them, and get stuck sellign them for a loss? It's liek the peopel who buy the latest iPhone on launch day - crash web sites, complain that their order wasn;t accepted, stand in line for hours on end, etc. Or you can wait a few months, walk in, and walk out with the item as quickly as your transaction can be processed, no waiting. What did the line standers gain? AN extra month or so witht he device, at the expense of wasting a night and day camped out at the doors? Wow, Wish I didn;t have things like a job that got in thew way of doing stuff liek that. Crazy, this is a hobby, not a race to see who can build the biggest layout in the fastest time. Slow down, relax, have fun.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Geared Steam NP2626: Please, if you think I need some type of lecture on economics, consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world. Is it time for one of these threads already?
NP2626: Please, if you think I need some type of lecture on economics, consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world.
Is it time for one of these threads already?
Apparently so, Geared...
NP,
Each time this topic comes up, it always boils down to this: You can spend as little or as much as you want.
If you are good at searching out bargains for non-MRRing items then you'll find MRRing equally as rewarding. Yes, you can spend $200 and up for a locomotive. However, you can also find some VERY good deals...if you are persistent, you are patient, and you know where to look.
Prices inevitably go up. How you take on the challenge to economize and maximize you MRRing budget is really up to you.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
cudaken NP2626: At the beginning of 2009, I was laid off from my job, like many people at that time. consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world. ?
NP2626: At the beginning of 2009, I was laid off from my job, like many people at that time. consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world.
At the beginning of 2009, I was laid off from my job, like many people at that time.
consider that for 31 years I had been self employed.
So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world.
?
I was wondering the same thing Ken.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Paul: Maybe what we need is a thread on low cost enjoyment of the hobby.
--------------------------------------
Paul,I been thinking of doing such a topic including a "poor boy" sound equipped locomotive for around $100.00...
But....
Here's the rub..
I would probably step on toes,upset the purist,ruin the DCC crowd's day and who knows what other mayhem I would cause from such a topic..
NP2626 At the beginning of 2009, I was laid off from my job, like many people at that time. consider that for 31 years I had been self employed. So, I'm pretty sure I've got a good grasp on how things work in the real world.
Doughless sakel: It really depends on where/how you look, for example, I was looking at a kato mid-production sd40-2, retails for $189.99, LHS had it for $149.99, with some looking around I bought it for $89.99. That's %50 of retail. So it yust depends on where you look. And I recently bit the bullitt and bought my first DCC/Sound locomotive. A nice Atlas Gold Series for $130, which was only $30 more than what the typical DCC ready Silver version goes for these days. BTW...With the fact that you didn't buy it from the LHS, you have to wonder for how long he/she can possibly stay open for business.
sakel: It really depends on where/how you look, for example, I was looking at a kato mid-production sd40-2, retails for $189.99, LHS had it for $149.99, with some looking around I bought it for $89.99. That's %50 of retail. So it yust depends on where you look.
It really depends on where/how you look, for example, I was looking at a kato mid-production sd40-2, retails for $189.99, LHS had it for $149.99, with some looking around I bought it for $89.99. That's %50 of retail. So it yust depends on where you look.
And I recently bit the bullitt and bought my first DCC/Sound locomotive. A nice Atlas Gold Series for $130, which was only $30 more than what the typical DCC ready Silver version goes for these days.
BTW...With the fact that you didn't buy it from the LHS, you have to wonder for how long he/she can possibly stay open for business.
It's a (not so) LHS, and it is a natoinwide chain soooo........
Samuel A. Kelly
I can draw pictures with my keyboard!
-------- ( It's a worm)
$200 plus locos are DCC sound equipped. If you can't find good quality DC locos without sound for half that price, you are not looking very hard.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Things aren't more expensive. The dollar buys less. When I was in high school in the late 90s, a mass market paperback book was $5.99. They're $7.99 now. Yeah that's only $2 but its also a 26% increase in price. Which isn't good bad, given that $1 in 1998 dollars has the purchasing power of about 70 cents right now.
I just reached into the box and pulled out a random magazine: the Sept 1996 MR. On page 109, a hobby shop is advertising an HO scale Kato Dash 9 for $119.95. Reasonably sure this doesn't have DCC, as nothing did back then. Inflation since then has caused $119.95 in 1998 dollars to turn into $175.69. MSRP on Kato's site lists a non-DCC equipped Dash 9 for $169. They've actually gone down versus inflation!
sakel It really depends on where/how you look, for example, I was looking at a kato mid-production sd40-2, retails for $189.99, LHS had it for $149.99, with some looking around I bought it for $89.99. That's %50 of retail. So it yust depends on where you look.
- Douglas
Maybe what we need is a thread on low cost enjoyment of the hobby.
Anyway, some ideas on keeping costs down.
1. Check out places like M.B. Klein and Trainworld on a regular basis. Many engines especially Bachmann come way down in price after they have been out a while.
2. Check out train shows. In June, I picked up 2 Roundhouse 4-4-2 kits at a train show for $35 each. In May I bought some MDC kits for $4 and $5 at a train show. I see lots of Athearn kits also. Almost always $10 or less.
3. Low cost plastic structure kits are still available also.
4. Painting and/or weathering can enhance cheaper plastic models.
While museum quality layouts seem to be the norm based on the model mags, I suspect the reality is that most of us are just fine at a more affordable level. While I have started a large layout, I get a lot of fun out of a small test layout I have with simple loops of S, HO, and O27 track.
Good luck
Paul
I think its been at least three weeks since one of these threads has appeared, so I assume the Statute of Limitations on responding has expired....
When comparing prices of things now and then, be sure you are comparing apples to apples.
Generally speaking, I think that currently built model trains have more features, come preassembled, and have better quality paint jobs than in years past; so comparing prices of today's products with those of the past may not be as simple as it seems since it does make sense that those extra features demand a higher price. A price increase beyond just the rate of inflation.
Perhaps one of the better apples to apples comparison would be the RTR Athearn GP38/40-2 and the old BB GP38/40-2. They are basically the same locomotive, with the exception that now the handrails are installed at the factory, wire grab irons are applied, and the paint job is better. Deduct those improvements from the current MSRP of about $75 (how you do that, I'm not sure) and then compare that adjusted price to the price of the old BB version and the rate of inflation over the given time period.
Just intuitively speculating, I doubt that the real price has increased above the rate of inflation that much. So perhaps a factor in the perception of higher prices is that the MRR market demands more features.
Perhaps we can weave a RTR collector vs real modeler thread into this one, then talk about how the added feature of DCC raises the price beyond just DC and we can have the motherload of all threads.....
A lot depends on what you are looking for. Years ago I bought a Bachmann N&W J for my son. The drivers fell off. I didn't touch another Bachmann product for years but when the new 2-6-0 came out I couldn't resist and bought one for 99 bucks at a train show. That's with DCC and sound. I model Pennsy and it doesn't really fit in with my larger (and more expensive) BLI engines but it runs like a top and is a real blast. Since then I've added a couple of other Bachmann steamers and they are good value for the money. So look beyond what was out there when you went on vacation from the hobby. If you are running DC and not DCC you can find a lot of bargains in older engines, some never used, at train shows.
Good luck and I hope you enjoy the hobby again.
Werner