There have been many lamentations on these forums over the years about the demise of local hobby shops (LHS) and blaming the Internet for their failure. But sometimes it seems to be self-inflicted. A case in point:
There's only one LHS remaining in Tucson, Arizona that sells trains. Over the past few years they have offered a 5% discount to club members, and would gladly take special orders. Well, new management has apparently taken over who seems determined to drive them out of business.
After years of being in a rather cramped corner of an Ace Hardware store, they moved into new digs in January and were able to expand their selection. In early May they announced that the 5% club discount would no longer be offered. Two weeks later they announced that special orders must now be fully paid in advance.
With Tucson being a 70-mile one-way drive from us, nearly all members of our local club have said we will now do our shopping on the Internet and let UPS do the driving. In the past, many of us have patronized this LHS in the hope of seeing it remain in business, but the motivation for seeing them succeed has been seriously degraded by their new policies.
We get a 10% discount for our club. That is so sad about your LHS. We are pretty lucky here since there are many within a couple hours drive and several within 30 minutes or less. Most of the good ones around here also sell over the internet and really concentrate on trains with 2,000 to 6,000 sq ft. So, they make it worth the drive.
You might want to see if Walther's will set you up as a reseller if you have enough volume in your club? Horizon requires a brick and mortar store, so they are trying to keep the LHS alive.
Richard
They may have put themselves into a bind by increasing their fixed costs for the new shop without increasing revenue, or having a serious plan of how to do it. My LHS offers 10 or 15% off to the regulars and club members. (I became a regular when I was given this discount on my first purchase.) He also takes special orders by e-mail, and I pay when I go to pick it up.
At the same time, I help the shop by always paying in cash, even if it means a trip to the ATM beforehand. Debit and credit cards charge a fee to the seller for each transaction, so by cutting the bank out I give the shop a break without having it cost me anything.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Ya I suspect hobby shops are generally running on a thin line between making a profit or not, so any new expenses are going to be a potential problem. Growing up I used to walk to Hub Hobby in Richfield MN, when it was located in the Hub Shopping Center (strip mall) in the middle of town. At some point in the eighties, the management of the mall decided that all the business had to get new signs - they would install the signs, whether the store wanted it or not. For Hub Hobby, it amounted to several thousand dollars, which they couldn't afford. The owning partners ended up splitting into two - one partner moved opened a new hobby shop on the east side of town, and the other owner moved Hub Hobby to the west side of town where it still is today.
Yes, I'd say most LHS's close due to self inflicted causes. I've been to more than I can hope to count during my travels all over the US, working out of town in many states and making it a point to visit 2 or 3 shops in most cities I traveled to for work.
I almost never buy from hobby shops which sell at or near MSRP; you simple don't need to. Blame mail order, blame the internet, blame blame blame. As long as the hobbiest has mulitple options, the LHS selling at or near MSRP is on the road to closing, it's just a matter of time.
The brick and mortar stores which stay open now are the ones which combine traditional sales with web sales etc. Of course this topic has been beat to death hasn't it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
From what I've seen in this forum, the reason hobby shops fail is they don't stock every item in the walthers catalog, give 50% discounts, and have VIP sales associates for every customer.
Can we stop beating this very dead horse.
Milepost 266.2 Can we stop beating this very dead horse.
I don't think so. I know your question was rhetorical, but it deserves a little consideration. I wrote something similar when a long time LHS started getting out of the business here--after many generations. And that's the point--loyalty, verification, conversation, community, etc all of this adds up over the decades and when something is taken away that was/is important to you--it matters. And therefore I don't think for several reasons, we should stop beating this very dead horse--imho.
Train Modeler Milepost 266.2: Can we stop beating this very dead horse. I don't think so. I know your question was rhetorical, but it deserves a little consideration. I wrote something similar when a long time LHS started getting out of the business here--after many generations. And that's the point--loyalty, verification, conversation, community, etc all of this adds up over the decades and when something is taken away that was/is important to you--it matters. And therefore I don't think for several reasons, we should stop beating this very dead horse--imho. Richard
Milepost 266.2: Can we stop beating this very dead horse.
I agree with Richard..When something ends that is part of our lives then we should be able to discuss it.
I miss the old days when the faithful gathered at the LHS every Saturday morning where lasting friendships was made,new models displayed(and bought),modeling techniques and layouts were discuss..Inventions to visit a layout or join in on their operation night was given.
Today most of that comradeship has been lost to the cold and flat modeling forums where everybody is nameless and faceless...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Milepost 266.2 From what I've seen in this forum, the reason hobby shops fail is they don't stock every item in the walthers catalog, give 50% discounts, and have VIP sales associates for every customer.
Righteo. The above will never happen and I know your point is the ideal world will never exist so just shut up. BUt IMO, you don't give many of us much credit by oversimplifying and turning this into a characature of what people want but can't have in their "idealized word". But most intelligent and "aware" people know that hobby shops can exist AND satisfy customers if they are run intelligently and adapt to the market. Those who can't close, those who can may continue on. Personally I would don't have any illusions about it being an easy job anymore, and I don't envy these people.
Still this should be a topic that can be discussed in a mature way and not locked by the moderators.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
It is a dynamic and inter-dependent relationship. What one does affects the other directly. If a store raises prices, it is because their revenue has been insufficient to pay their bills and living or desirable wage. Or, that is the perception and determination of the proprietor. However, the other part of the team is also bringing to the dynamic his/her own contribution of effect. The customer also acts in ways to cause the business owner to adjust his/her own behaviour. Some of them may behave in a number of ways that force the business owner to adjust prices, or to reduce stock, or to insist upon advance orders being paid in full.
Businesses close because they are no longer viable. It may be something that the owner does or fails to do, but it is just as likely to be something the customer does or fails to do.
Crandell
It is so very nice to read all the know-it-all comments on this and other online forums regarding the pricing structure of the LHS, and why it should be this or that, or else we're going to buy online and put the local dealer out of business... After all, we "modelers" or would-be "modelers" are so infinitely more knowledgeable about the costs and business side of this hobby than the dealers, most of whom who are simply trying to make an honest living at it. After all--they're all just greedy hogs and don't need to pay for their own health insurance because the government is going to provide it for everyone, right?
Anyone who has ever worked in a fine train only store has a much greater appreciation of the realities of the business than most of the whiners on internet forums. The whiners on internet forums don't see the costs of health insurance skyrocketing on the train stores. The whiners on internet forums don't see the actual lease or ownership costs of the store, the actual (nowadays ever shrinking due to increased distributor margins) profit margins of the merchandise or the actual utility bills.
I politely suggest you go build a model or run a train rather than whine about the economics of the LHS. The ones that remain are doing the best they can, and bashing them online or pontificating about why their pricing structure is absurd is utterly useless.
Fine train stores make up for the price margin by also providing exemplary customer service. Last time I checked, that never ended. The real customers know they are paying for the service when they need it.
Larry--I mean no disrespect--there are still fine train stores where all the Saturday morning activities of the past still go on.
John
UP 4-12-2Fine train stores make up for the price margin by also providing exemplary customer service. Last time I checked, that never ended. The real customers know they are paying for the service when they need it. John
John, for most of my life, I have never been able to "afford" the "service" (ie, the near MSRP prices). Thats fine if you have the disposable income to pay for this luxury, but many folks are just getting by so "service" is a luxury to them. Perhaps you and a few of your associates have been blessed with good financial fortune - thats good. But realize everyone isn't one the same economic plane. I'm not complaining; in the world economy, my standard of living has been better than the majority most of my life, so it isn't fair for me to compare myself to all the folks I pass on the Washington DC beltway who are driving Mercedes and BMW's and can afford to pay for "service". Don't get me wrong, service is a good thing, but remember, it is a luxury to many - and this has never been a cheap hobby.
Here in Germany, we see a kind of resurrection of the good old LHS. People who are prepared to spend a little fortune on their trains, seem again to appreciate the service a good LHS offers. With ongoing quality issues, people also like too see what they are about to buy, before cashing out those 500 to 800 $ for a loco. Going back to good old values?
I have no problem paying MSRP and sales tax at my LHS for items they have in stock. I enjoy sifting through boxes of structures, detail parts, and resale shelves. I enjoy the banter and listening to the talk amongst the other modellers. I enjoy chatting with the guys behind the counter and asking for their advice on balkly loco's and other tips and techniques. This all comes with a price and if it means I help keep a local business open that employs local people, I'm happy to do my part.
Do I buy things on the internet and shop around? Of course. But I'm tired of the philosophy that if it can be found cheaper on the internet then screw the LHS. Like any other shop, if I find that the LHS doesn't appreciate my business I'll go elsewhere. Until then I'll do my part to keep them around. I sorely miss the local record / CD shops, book stores, etc.
-----------------------
John,I only wish that was true around here..I really miss those Saturday gatherings.The last shop that did that closed several years ago.
disrespect? LOL! None taken my friend..
Sir Madog Here in Germany, we see a kind of resurrection of the good old LHS. People who are prepared to spend a little fortune on their trains, seem again to appreciate the service a good LHS offers. With ongoing quality issues, people also like too see what they are about to buy, before cashing out those 500 to 800 $ for a loco. Going back to good old values?
From what I have seen of the cost of German/European loco's etc, they have been about double the cost of Americn equivelents historically, so maybe y'all are more prepared for that higher cost. Certainly American trains as a rule have more engines pulling them, often 3 to 6 engines, especially in the mountains, where as German trains have 1 or 2 loco's on the front from what I recall watching trains during my 4 trips there. So in Germany a modeler on the average probably buys and uses far less engines for European modeling.
Plus, the scale of economy is different. An Austailian modeler was chiding Americans last week about how we don't have the stomach for 200 - 300 dollar engines here in America, many of us, where as they are used to them costing that much for a single diesel. But thats like saying we can't handle $6-7/gallon gas that you may have in Germany or England. But since our economy is scaled to gasoline price at half of other countries, doubling the price of gas would cripple our economy because it isn't scaled to that, and it would be terrible shock to adjust to it. Overseas, countries have been scaled to that for years and years, same for the hobby. So it really is an Apples and Oranges thing.
But I'm tired of the philosophy that if it can be found cheaper on the internet then screw the LHS.
Perhaps people have the "it can be found cheaper" philosophy out of necessity, ever think of that? People who have plenty of money take it for granted. My wife, who is from a poor working class town in England knows this more than most Americans, where the class differerences are much more pronounced and the rich or well off, look down on the poor. Watch some Catherine Cookson movies on Netflix and you'll start to see what I'm talking about. Well, this attitude is alive and well in America, just not as well developed and long standing as England.
Why Hobby Shops fail has a lot to do with poor business practices
BUT!
Now a days having to pre order stuff that probably won't be manufactured for years is NOT going to make a Hobby Shops life any easier!
Then there is always the ones that can get it cheaper on the internet and then when the item doesn't work
get on the forums and CRY and CRY about the stuff not working.
YET!
If they would purchase it at the Hobby Shop - you could test it to be sure it worked !
The trade off we do to save a BUCK!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
BOB H -
--------------------------
I wouldn't mind spending that extra buck if the shop stocked the new items beyond the canceled orders or orders that wasn't picked up..Why should I buy something from my LHS that I can't use just because its in stock? That is exactly what drove me to the Internet shops..I don't preorder since as you noted it could take months or years before the model hits the shelf or the shop's order is shorten because his credit line isn't the best..
So,in the end it may not be the buck we save as much as it is the availability.
We're lucky to have 2 good LHS's here in London ON...and a couple more outside London as well.
Lots of kvetching lately?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The death local hobby shop is just a sign of the free market competition working. Right now mail order companies can out compete brick an mortar hobby shops because they have lower fixed costs and thus can offer a lower price.
I can some up another problem facing the LHS in one sentence: "we don't have it but we can order it for you." When I need something like a ground throw or scenic cement or turf right away and I have fought the traffic on I-85 to get to the LHS, the above sentence is the last thing I want to hear. I the LHS wants to compete with the mail order company, then "instant gratification" needs to be the name of the game. I don't mean for specialty items like locomotives but for the basics. I believe the LHS could compete by being the place you go to get a replacement ground throw when one breaks a few hours before the operating session, or the guy who has the scenic cement or the plaster cloth when I run out in the middle of a project.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Hobby Shops are failing because there is an increasingly smaller market for their items and the hobby has not been able to recruit enough new members interested in getting into the hobby. We can debate the causation of this trend but the fact is that there are fewer and fewer hobby shops each year. Selling (and manufacturing) model railroading equipment is losing it's profitability.
I live near two model train stores. I drive 10 miles more to get to the farther one because they have a better selection, better prices, better service and a mostly knowledgeable staff which is in direct contrast to the much closer hobby shop. The better hobby shops will be the last ones standing.
John R.
EmpireStateJR Hobby Shops are failing because there is an increasingly smaller market for their items and the hobby has not been able to recruit enough new members interested in getting into the hobby. We can debate the causation of this trend but the fact is that there are fewer and fewer hobby shops each year. Selling (and manufacturing) model railroading equipment is losing it's profitability. I live near two model train stores. I drive 10 miles more to get to the farther one because they have a better selection, better prices, better service and a mostly knowledgeable staff which is in direct contrast to the much closer hobby shop. The better hobby shops will be the last ones standing.
Is one of the better one's Trainmaster?
No reason to, obviously many find the topic interesting, maybe the real question should be "why do people reply to threads that do not interest them?" The "Dead Horse" reply is even dumber than an often repeated thread, the topic of the thread is VERY CLEAR in the title, why do you waste your time even opening the thread, then reading the thread, then HEAVEN FORBID wasting your time replying to a thread that you feel is BEATEN to DEATH.
Just pass on over it to a thread that you might find some interest in. There are plenty of threads every day on the forums that I find no interest in, I just don't open them, and find some thing that I am interested in, I don't criticize a thread or those that post or read it, maybe some others should try the same idea.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
I am fortunate to have several Train specific stores near me as well as some well stocked general Hobby shops nearby as well. IIRC the current owner of Whistlestop Trains in Portland, OR said the store originally opened in 1973. I remember going there when I was very young and riding the bus to get there in poor weather and riding my bicycle in good weather. WST is a Great example of the service and Friendliness that used to be found more often. With the economy the way it is, I have not been as frequent a customer as I had been, but still I am told when I shop to stop and visit more even if the budget doesn't allow for any thing new, just stop by and say Hi.
I Hope that I never read or have to write here of one of the LHS's here, and WST in particular, having their "Final Sale"
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
I can buy locomotives on the Internet to save a few dollars.
I can buy a package of rail joiners on Saturday afternoon at the LHS. Until I can't anymore.
The Internet will always be there, so support your LHS now while you still have it.
Many folks are making good points here and much truth in this topic. Which, in a way is why people use the "beating a dead horse" comment, because many of the comments while true, are repeated over and over and over, and are still true! =P Nothing is really resolved though.
And this comment above, is actually not true, its just lots of kvetching going on for years and years. Nothing new under the sun lately, ain't it?
Fifty years ago I remember going with Dad to the local hobby shop on a regular basis and peering at a the cases filled with Model Railroad stuff. I remember all the MRR chit chat that went on as I look at all the things the store had to offer. As the years went by I began to notice the gas powered model airplanes hanging from the ceiling. I remember building my first wood airplane kit and saving like crazy to buy my first Cox.049. This lead to bigger planes with bigger gas motors and by about age fifteen I was building my first Radio control plane with a six foot wingspan. When I hit 16 I got my drivers license and was off to the R/C airfield for years of fun.
That first R/C plane kit I bought came in a box about 4' long and when I opened it up it was nothing but a big pile of balsa wood. It took countless hours for me to build that thing, building the wings rib by rib and putting the covering over it. It took a lot of newspaper delivering and shopping cart returning at Safeway to pay for the Radio equipment. Nothing was better than flying that thing with its six foot wing span coming in on final approach to the runway with real exhaust trailing behind. Flaps down, gear down and another perfect landing.
If it had not been for that hobby store I doubt I would have discovered the world of model planes. Now a kid goes to "TOYS R US" and gets his battery powered plane or helicopter made out of styrofoam for $50.00 fly's it around the back yard for ten minutes gets board and never touches it again.
I got as much fun and satisfaction out of flying my R/C plane as I did flying real airplanes (real planes were the next step after R/C planes) You had to build it right and fly it like a real plane or it would end up a pile of kindling.
The disappearing hobby shop is a sad situation, but it goes along with the disappearing hardware store, lumber yard and so on. We all go to home depot now, right?
Scrapbooking now has specialty shops, gaming has specialty shops, arts and crafts, ever heard of Michaels? Model trains have model train stores.
The demise of the hobby store has more to do with the number of products that can be sold to people in a hobby store. As that list shrinks through the growth of specialty stores so does their bottom line.
If you have a choice of turning right to the hobby store or left to the train store, I know which way I am turning. A specialty store will survive if the owner has done his or her homework before going ahead.
Not many of us just wonder into a specialty store. I just wonder how many kids will never discover the world model RR or R/C planes or something else because they don't have a local hobby shop.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
riogrande5761 Many folks are making good points here and much truth in this topic. Which, in a way is why people use the "beating a dead horse" comment, because many of the comments while true, are repeated over and over and over, and are still true! =P Nothing is really resolved though. Lots of kvetching lately? And this comment above, is actually not true, its just lots of kvetching going on for years and years. Nothing new under the sun lately, ain't it?
I wonder..
Maybe modelers are like soldiers..Not happy unless they are kvetching?
I been in this hobby for eons(so it seems) and I never met a modeler that didn't have some kvetching to do.
Some times I think kvetching is just part of the hobby.
BRAKIE I wonder.. Maybe modelers are like soldiers..Not happy unless they are kvetching? I been in this hobby for eons(so it seems) and I never met a modeler that didn't have some kvetching to do. Some times I think kvetching is just part of the hobby.
Probably because the majority of us are grumpy old men? =P
Wierd to think that even at age 53, I may be on the younger end of the spectrum of gumpy old men modelers - that doesn't bode well for me because if I follow the trend, I"ll get grumper as I get older! =P
No wonder so many topics get locked around here!
*** In before the lock!!! ***
I think it is due to the I Remember When Syndrome....