cmrproducts I too believe that Atlas maybe having money problems! They had announced that they are having track supply problems currently and in 2010 they had problems supplying turnouts for most of the year.
I too believe that Atlas maybe having money problems!
They had announced that they are having track supply problems currently and in 2010 they had problems supplying turnouts for most of the year.
This may be the whole problem. I went to my LHS last week to buy some Atlas flex-track. I was told I was in luck, because the day before he'd gotten one box from his supplier, but he was told that's the last he'd see until October. Atlas is shifting track manufacturing from one Chinese factory to another, but in the process they will lose many months of production. I'd imagine that track is a significant part of their revenue stream, so they will have cash-flow problems this year.
It may be that they've made the choice to shut down the forum rather than lay off employees. If that's the case, I'd agree with the decision.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BRAKIE Bob,While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think Atlas is hurting after all they bought Branchlines line of cars and Walthers O Scale buildings.We can't overlook that. If one rereads the explanation Atlas gave for the forum's closure slowly and closely the true reason is there.
Bob,While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think Atlas is hurting after all they bought Branchlines line of cars and Walthers O Scale buildings.We can't overlook that.
If one rereads the explanation Atlas gave for the forum's closure slowly and closely the true reason is there.
BRAKIE
What Atlas says is true - they are also going to have CASH flow problems - Period!
You have to have PRODUCT to sell - if you don't NO CASH
They spent a lot of bucks in the Branchline cars and it will take a while to get China up to speed on those (a year or more) to get more stuff out there.
More CASH Flow problems while this is happening.
The EXPENSES keep on coming in (Elect, Wages, Taxes, etc.) no matter if you are not spending any money paying for stuff to arrive from China (been there) !
And where do we cut back - where ever we can.
We begin to NOT release NEW Cars & Engines as fast we we could etc.
Now the Cash flow is getting worse as NO ONE is buying anything as there is NOTHING to sell - REMEMBER - we ONLY build to ORDERS!
So we have to cut back a little more - More Cash Flow problems and it continues till we are no longer able to keep the doors OPEN!
Again I can speak from experience on this!
This current method os economics is not going to keep the doors open!
You can't make MONEY on NO STOCK/SOLD OUT!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Good riddance to the Atlas Forum!
While I will concede it once was a source of useful information, over the past couple years at least the HO forum has degenerated into a place for whining and moaning. Those high posting individuals are too ignorant to realize how much they don't know, have lobbied for ever more highly detailed models that now they don't want to pay for (what a shock! like we couldn't see that coming), and have likely done more to hurt this hobby and drive others away than anyone else has ever done. Don't even try to provide them factual information and real manufacturing cost estimates--they won't accept them at all but instead argue "Kadee builds it here so why can't everyone else". Finally, several of the high posting members don't even have a layout--so why should anyone listen to their product evaluations anyway?
John
I regularily read 3 forums daily, sometimes two or three times. Atlas, MR and Train orders. all three serve their purpose and present different views and ideas. I hate to see Atlas go, remembering a time years ago when I kept bugging Atlas for a certain Santa Fe diesel, and eventually they produced it. At that time, I received one of the first ones "off the line" from Atlas as a gift. Lately I have spent less reading time on Atlas because of a few individuals on that forum who were obviously raised in a barn, not a home. However, I can find the same ones on this forum and on Train Orders, so what the heck.
Somehow Altas's announcement, along with XactRail attempting to rewrite the hobby to their specs does bother me and cause concern for the future of the hobby. On the other hand, have been in HO since late 50's and was in Lionel before that so I can "skip" the China syndrome and have plenty of equipment to operate and then let my wife sell it off when I die.
Bob
cmrproducts riogrande5761: Baloney, That is a symptom of the modeling community at large and not a problem of Atlas forums in particular. I have been a member of Atlas since it's earliest days in 1994 and personally I think this is a symptom of the poor economic conditions of the hobby and possibly Atlas too. If Atlas cannot continue to maintain it's forums, which was IMO an ambassador of good will and good PR to the model RR community, then they must hurting financially. (snip) I too believe that Atlas maybe having money problems! They had announced that they are having track supply problems currently and in 2010 they had problems supplying turnouts for most of the year. Our Club has 6 of the MP15 Sound engines still on back order for almost 2 years now - We did receive the Non-Sound units we had ordered. This thing with having to pre-order engines and cars is, I Believe, not going as well as THEY had hoped and the longer the delays become makes many less ready to PRE-Order anything else as they (like my Club) are unhappy about having to wait for over 2 years for a simple MP15 switcher. Now with them saying they are trying to save money - sure indicates the current business climate is not as good as most are trying to make it sound! I am involved with a Hobby Shop and I can see the problem slowly turning away NEW Modelers as the LACK of availability of Engines and Cars in specific roads - being SOLD-OUT. While the business model of only building to Pre-Orders is ONLY taking into consideration current Modelers! What about any NEW Modelers (as those now finding time to begin or get back into Model Railroading). They just may want some of the engines that are now ALL SOLD-OUT - never to be run again! YES - they can try and find the stuff on e-Bay but now their COST is much higher and it is turning NUBEs away. This environment of just building to those into the Hobby NOW and not thinking of Future NEW Modelers is a sure fire way to go out of business! YMMV ;-) BOB H - Clarion, PA
riogrande5761: Baloney, That is a symptom of the modeling community at large and not a problem of Atlas forums in particular. I have been a member of Atlas since it's earliest days in 1994 and personally I think this is a symptom of the poor economic conditions of the hobby and possibly Atlas too. If Atlas cannot continue to maintain it's forums, which was IMO an ambassador of good will and good PR to the model RR community, then they must hurting financially. (snip)
Baloney,
That is a symptom of the modeling community at large and not a problem of Atlas forums in particular.
I have been a member of Atlas since it's earliest days in 1994 and personally I think this is a symptom of the poor economic conditions of the hobby and possibly Atlas too.
If Atlas cannot continue to maintain it's forums, which was IMO an ambassador of good will and good PR to the model RR community, then they must hurting financially. (snip)
Our Club has 6 of the MP15 Sound engines still on back order for almost 2 years now - We did receive the Non-Sound units we had ordered.
This thing with having to pre-order engines and cars is, I Believe, not going as well as THEY had hoped and the longer the delays become makes many less ready to PRE-Order anything else as they (like my Club) are unhappy about having to wait for over 2 years for a simple MP15 switcher.
Now with them saying they are trying to save money - sure indicates the current business climate is not as good as most are trying to make it sound!
I am involved with a Hobby Shop and I can see the problem slowly turning away NEW Modelers as the LACK of availability of Engines and Cars in specific roads - being SOLD-OUT.
While the business model of only building to Pre-Orders is ONLY taking into consideration current Modelers!
What about any NEW Modelers (as those now finding time to begin or get back into Model Railroading).
They just may want some of the engines that are now ALL SOLD-OUT - never to be run again!
YES - they can try and find the stuff on e-Bay but now their COST is much higher and it is turning NUBEs away.
This environment of just building to those into the Hobby NOW and not thinking of Future NEW Modelers is a sure fire way to go out of business!
YMMV ;-)
Atlas may or may not be tightening their belt a bit, but I do believe Bob that you are right about the effect of the preorder system on the hobby, new people in particular.
With some sense of being able to aquire all or most of the critical elements, who in their right mind would get into this or any other hobby?
Those of you who approach the hobby from the more casual "train collecting" point of view likely don't understand this, but those of us with specific modeling goals have plan. Having some sense that we will be able to secure the elements needed for that plan is an important step in that kind of plan.
Atlas makes (imports) very nice locos and rolling stock, and I have been in this hobby long before Atlas was in the loco/rolling stock business. But guess what - there are only 4 pieces of Atlas rolling stock on my railroad and NO Atlas locos. Why you ask?
Well, very few of their loco offerings are in my era, BUT I have never persued the ones that are because of the limited supply/preorder situation. My modeling theme requires multiple copies of most locos for MU sets, and to get the big railroad "fleet" feel. Getting 6 Atlas GP7's undecorated is a chore, getting six Proto GP7's undecorated was easy peasy lemon squeezy.
So was getting a long list of other Proto2000 first generation diesels, so Atlas missed out on a lot of my business.
I said it years ago and was laughed at, and told how it was the only way these companies could make these "prototype specific" models and how it was the wave of the future. It's the future all right, a future without a model train industry.
I'm 54 and now have 95% of the stuff I want for my layout - it is the new guy who will not get serious about this hobby and will not progress to the next level because it will be impossible to build the layout theme he is interested in, and thereby he will spend less money, eventually loosing all interest.
ANY industry has to actually have product to sell if they expect people to buy it.
For seven years I sold MATCO TOOLS, having the tools ON THE TRUCK was the secret to success, nobody wanted to wait a week, let alone months or years.
At some point, this industry will have to face this, the only question will be how much damage has been done to the potential market in the mean time.
But what do I know? I've only been in the business of selling stuff since I was 14, I've sold trains, other hobbies, electronics, tools, construction services, tractor parts, automotive service.........
One other unrelated point, I understand how much some of you enjoy these forums, but I would really love to see some numbers as to what percentage of modelers participate. In other words, Atlas has lets say 100,000 customers, how many of them were on their forum, follow them on facebook, etc.
I'll bet $100 to a doughnut that less than 10% of the people in this hobby use/follow forums or social media as it relates to the hobby. Why do I say that? Of all the modelers I know in the flesh, most do NOT follow this or any forum, nor do they use social media.
So the forums may be a "good will" gesture, but not one that reaches most of their customer base.
Sounds like a bad advertising investment to me.
Sheldon
Atlas may have used the financial end as the plausible excuse.
If I were attempting to moderate those forums, I would have grown tired of them--at least the HO one--long ago. Considering some posts were even pretty much asking Atlas to shut down the forum, it seems they decided this is a "convenient" time.
Money-wise Atlas will be just fine. Atlas has faced challenges before and has remained one of the best companies. They are shifting at least some of their production to Bowser's builder in China, who has stated they have plenty of capacity to build trains for both Bowser and Atlas. From what I've been told the builder just bought plenty of additional pad printing machines to handle the Atlas business.
I've been on that forum a few times, but, I've got to the point where Icould not even log in to the site..nothing would work...so what the heck...
On the other cash flow issue stuff..well...IIRC a few Prophets Of Doom who used to post here did suggest that such a thing could occur...you want high detailed trains..but are unwilling to either A) pay for such a privilege or B) can't buy a less detailed piece and build it up yourself...oh well...what can you say....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder I've been on that forum a few times, but, I've got to the point where Icould not even log in to the site..nothing would work...so what the heck... On the other cash flow issue stuff..well...IIRC a few Prophets Of Doom who used to post here did suggest that such a thing could occur...you want high detailed trains..but are unwilling to either A) pay for such a privilege or B) can't buy a less detailed piece and build it up yourself...oh well...what can you say....
Barry,
High detail, low detail, high priced, moderately priced, it makes no difference - you have to actually have something to sell BEFORE you try to sell it.
People with no experiance in this hobby are not very likely to "trust" that the product will show up, and therefore will be less likely to invest in the other aspects of a modeling project if that "key" piece is not a realtively sure thing.
And all this high detail RTR has shifted modeling styles and driven out companies like Champ decal, so you statement about detailing it yourself is now much harder than it was 15 years ago.
Personally, I'll take it either way, I build what I need to and buy what I don't feel like building, but again, that's ALL getting harder with this preorder non sense. I have 40 years experiance, a wide knowledge base of what has been produced in those 40 years for searching the secondary markets, and 40 years of refined modeling skills - AGAIN, what about he new guy?
That's just it.
The new guy is going to end up either needing a complete workshop for all his scratchbuilding needs, such as that is anymore. Having to go and make one's own decals..which in itself is a job......and who knows what all else......or s/he is going to have to have one whale of a set of deep pockets to get any of the RTR high/low whatever detail locomotives and rolling stock left.
Conversely, given the way things can go either way..we could see it become more of a 'cottage' industry with little tiny businesses actually selling stock through direct marketing or who knows what...
BOB H -
--------------------------------
Bob,I fully agree a company certainly can't sell if its not in stock.
Looking at the Atlas Trainman line that was suppose to be in stock at all times yet,a lot of the Train Man line has sold out and was never been release as a restock item-the low bulkhead flat cars comes to mind as does the regular bulkhead..
Atlas did manage to release the former Branch Line Berwick boxcar recently..
I'm still waiting on the release of their N Scale coil car that's been long in coming.
I fully convince there is more to the shutdown then low cash problems.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Shifting the topic a bit back to the original - about those "hordes" of former Atlas Forum users supposedly headed this way...don't you need to be a subscriber to Model Railroader, Trains, Classic Trains et. al. to be able to register to post on this forum?Or maybe that's just the subscribers extras, and posting is allowed for registered non-subscribers?
chutton01 Shifting the topic a bit back to the original - about those "hordes" of former Atlas Forum users supposedly headed this way...don't you need to be a subscriber to Model Railroader, Trains, Classic Trains et. al. to be able to register to post on this forum?Or maybe that's just the subscribers extras, and posting is allowed for registered non-subscribers?
Nope, you can be a nonsubscriber and still be able to post on the forums.
I used to visit the Atlas HO forum regularly. There are some great modelers on the forum and I learned a lot from them. Where I was able and thought I had something meaningful to offer, I would contribute, as well. But in the last couple of years, I have visited the site less and less. Many of the topics have become far removed from model railroading and the tone has become increasingly negative, personal and combative. Threads are locked with regularity as some posters seem to relish the opportunity to start a quarrel.
Looking at the statement from the Atlas CEO, Tom Haedrich, the most significant part of what he has to say is the first sentence. (Italics are mine).
“...a result of the ever-increasing amount of time and other valuable resources expended to monitor and administer the forums. Besides the monthly costs of bandwidth, software and service providers, Atlas dedicates a significant amount of precious R&D staff time responding both on and offline to forum based issues and problems. It’s time that Atlas reestablished these limited resources, in particular valued R&D employee time, toward increased efforts at developing new and innovative model railroad products.”
It’s no wonder that Atlas wants to focus its attention on product. They are tired of refereeing a brawl. Frankly, I am surprised it took them so long to come to their decision.
John Timm
John,Atlas shut the forum down twice before because of the rowdy behavior.
I fully believe this was strike three and they decided the forum was no longer worth the hassle and will pull the plug May,1st.
The fact that some of the posters on this thread are also posting the same text in threads on the Atlas Forum closing in multiple other model railroad forums is an indication of how much the Internet presence of the hobby has changed since Atlas first established its forums.
With so many other options, the Atlas Forum de-evolved into being a mostly sour place, it seemed to me, with a few prolific (but ill-tempered) individuals doing lots of bashing of hobby institutions and other forum participants -- along with competitive manufacturers using the Atlas forum to announce their own products. Not to mention the many SPAM accounts that cluttered up the site -- a major upgrade would have been needed to deal with even just the SPAM alone.
The wild-eyed speculation here that Atlas is in dire financial straits based on their Forum shutting down seems unwarranted. It seems to me that Atlas is saying that the Forum had become more trouble than it was worth. Hard to argue with that, from my vantage point.
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BRAKIE John,Atlas shut the forum down twice before because of the rowdy behavior. I fully believe this was strike three and they decided the forum was no longer worth the hassle and will pull the plug May,1st.
Brakie,
I did not know that, but it comes as no surprise. I just hope that the troublemakers do not drift over to other forums to cause similar problems with the same outcome.
I never used the Atlas forum much (to much rivet counting) but I did get ideas from them on ocassion.
Joe Staten Island West
It's not totally surprising. I'd guess the number of users / posts on the Atlas forums peaked some years back. It seems to me in recent years the Kalmbach forums have gotten much more use. Plus the expense part is real, I used to regularly post and read items on the "Fender Forum" hosted by Fender guitars. Eventually they decided they had to charge $25/year for users to have full access to all the forums.
desertdog I did not know that, but it comes as no surprise. I just hope that the troublemakers do not drift over to other forums to cause similar problems with the same outcome.
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GraffenMembership fees is never a good thing on a Forum..... And the figure of $25 as mentioned above must imply that the forum in question can't have very many users, as the costs involved can't justify that amount of money.... Picture a forum like this UK forum: "XXXXX, which started in March 2005, is the busiest online railway modelling community in the UK with a membership of around 15,000 attracting an average of over 85,000 unique visitors per month and continues to grow in terms of membership, traffic and content and ranked as the fourth busiest site in railway modelling in the world according to alexa.com." I can't see a reason demanding $375.000 annually for running it....... Unless the owner is greedy..... :-) My guess is that they pulled the plug due to the amount of time and work it demanded, and no amount of fees could have saved the situation...., :-)
Heh, the UK railway forum XXXXX (no names, but it begins with an 'R' and end in a 'Web', and I've posted on it a few times) was brought out by a modelling publishing group a month or so ago.Maybe in the medium term the surviving forums will be associated with modeling Media companies?
desertdog BRAKIE: John,Atlas shut the forum down twice before because of the rowdy behavior. I fully believe this was strike three and they decided the forum was no longer worth the hassle and will pull the plug May,1st. Brakie, I did not know that, but it comes as no surprise. I just hope that the troublemakers do not drift over to other forums to cause similar problems with the same outcome. John Timm
BRAKIE: John,Atlas shut the forum down twice before because of the rowdy behavior. I fully believe this was strike three and they decided the forum was no longer worth the hassle and will pull the plug May,1st.
If a troublemaker shows up here and starts trouble, please just issue the Report Abuse and let the Moderators handle it. No need having our members get into attacks and such here...
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
That is the best approach...no sense getting into flamefests...
I'm a bit disappointed by some of the negative responses, but understandably in many situations the negative points are what draw attention.
I've been a member of this forum since 2003 and joined Atlas later. Guys don't forget that this forum went through some "king kong sized" flame fests that, imho, made the Atlas incidents seem trivial. I was here and got "torched" a few times as well. Even the manufacturers were noticing. Our moderator then, Eric "Bergie" Bergstrom, certainly had his hands full. Thankfully, things have become much more civil since the 2006-2010 period.
Ripping on the Atlas forum due to the flame wars, imho, is like China ripping on North Korea for human rights violations. Sort of "The kettle calling the stove black" scenario.
The comments and concerns about Atlas forum members joining here......don't make sense; especially since a good number of those members are here too! SWChief, myself, Paul Cutler, Jason Shron, HGilespie, CMarchand, just to name a few. So what is up with this "concern"? The other Atlas forum members that aren't members here should be invited and made to feel welcome. I hope that the passenger train modelers come as well.
I like this forum and don't plan on going any time soon, but imho, it seems that I saw more threads and informational exchanges on the Atlas forum in the areas I was strongly geared towards.....passenger train modeling and southeastern railroad topics. I enjoyed some of the detailed in-depth posts and historical info. Many photos of passenger car models can be found on that forum in threads over the years.
I also received much more feedback regarding my research and experimentation on Alclad with the focus on achieving stainless steel appearances which in turn I share with everyone else. The feedback here was helpful as well, but it was less, quantity-wise.
Overall, my experience on the Atlas forum was a very positive one and I'm sad to see it go.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
jeffrey-wimberly desertdog: I did not know that, but it comes as no surprise. I just hope that the troublemakers do not drift over to other forums to cause similar problems with the same outcome. They drift over to mine they'll be plucked, stuffed, slow cooked and out on their ear if I catch them causing trouble. They'll be out. All the way out.
desertdog: I did not know that, but it comes as no surprise. I just hope that the troublemakers do not drift over to other forums to cause similar problems with the same outcome.
They drift over to mine they'll be plucked, stuffed, slow cooked and out on their ear if I catch them causing trouble. They'll be out. All the way out.
Jeff,
I really had to chuckle when I read your comment and I do like your approach to these potential problems....quick, short, and easy.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
AntonioFP45 The other Atlas forum members that aren't members here, should be invited and made to feel welcome. I hope that the passenger train modelers come as well.
The other Atlas forum members that aren't members here, should be invited and made to feel welcome. I hope that the passenger train modelers come as well.
I agree and have posted such on Atlas welcoming all that wish to join us. Every forum has problem members and it's the moderators that need to deal with those issues and not the membership.
So yes, to any new Atlas (or other places) members that I hope will add to out community.
Stourbridge Lion AntonioFP45: The other Atlas forum members that aren't members here, should be invited and made to feel welcome. I hope that the passenger train modelers come as well. I agree and have posted such on Atlas welcoming all that wish to join us. Every forum has problem members and it's the moderators that need to deal with those issues and not the membership. So yes, to any new Atlas (or other places) members that I hope will add to out community.
AntonioFP45: The other Atlas forum members that aren't members here, should be invited and made to feel welcome. I hope that the passenger train modelers come as well.
Lots of griping, conjecture and assumptions. I've been on the Atlas Forum for many years. I have noticed the membership/ user drop steadily for a while now. Usually would just pop in from time to time, not a regular like here.
I would also welcome The Atlas members here, there's only a few bad apples that seemed to haunt that place. Now they will be crying in their "Beer' and looking at Blank screen. I don't think they would try to come here w/ that same attitude. If so, we'll let Jeff have at 'em!
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
AntonioFP45I also received much more feedback regarding my research and experimentation on Alclad with the focus on achieving stainless steel appearances which in turn I share with everyone else. The feedback here was helpful as well, but it was less, quantity-wise.
Speaking of which, did they "disappear" threads on the Atlas forum? If not, then the newbie Shruggers will need to get used to that. I remember at least two threads I participated in that were disappeared (the one where the guy from DownTown Deco was assembling and finishing one of his kits step-by-step, which got nuked before he did the weathering-darn it!; and the moon-amtrak one - I think we were doing very well in finding HO scale figures showing bare hinies), and that was after the great MR "Flame Wars" that you remember, Antonio.
I have beern a member of this forum for several years, I have been a member of Atlas for even more years, and can honestly say that both forums have their detractors. I don't see Atlas any worse than this forum.
But, model rails do love to argue about trivial and non trivial issues, seems to be the human nature of the human being. I just ignore the bad and read the good on any forum.