On this weekend's "Weekend Photo Fun April 13 - 15" MarkWatson posted pictures of three pieces of rolling stock made with a 3D printer. http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/204976.aspx
I described his work as "taking scratch building to a whole new level" but stebbycentral suggested that 'scratch building' might not be the best term to describe the process.
So, my question is: What do you call the process of using a 3D printer to create a unique model?
Personally, I kind of favour the term 'scratch building' because the modeler is starting from scratch and is using basic materials. The two big differences are that the tool(s) being used can't exactly be described as 'basic', and the skills are more intellectual than manual.
OK, let's start the pot boiling! Your opinions and suggestions please.
We are witnessing the beginning of a whole new aspect of the hobby!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Copy cat? no make that Clone modeling
As 3d printing becomes more available to the general public I forsee many legal problems. It would be so easy to duplicate items that are under a copywrite.
As an example one site dealing with 3d printing was making duplicates of lego blocks.
Having said that I would get one should they become afordable for personal use.
Why not call it "3D printing". That's pretty self-explanatory.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
don7:
I understand your concerns about misuse of the technology, but my question is not addressed to the thieves among us. This process will become relatively common place, although there is and will be a stiff entrance fee.
My point is that we need to include those who will use this process instead of dismissing them as copy cats. That description is unfair.
Let us revel in the creations they will make.
Tom! Humour me!
That is way too easy! After all I am trying to stir a pot here!
Seriously, the hobby has a tradition of categorizing and labelling everything.
Does 3D printing qualify as scratch building?
I often call it scratch building, though I can get away with it as I'm the designer.
The "CG" in my business name stands for "Computer Generated". Perhaps electronic modeling or digital modeling would be appropriate terms. But I agree with Tom, I just call it 3d Printing or rapid prototyping. Both are terms that define themselves.
These printers are amazing and they're getting better every day. This time last year, the Stagecoach would NOT have been possible. But now, well, check it out for yourself.. It's the size of a quarter!
-Mark
www.MarkWatson3D.com
Gidday, to a technological "Luddite" such as myself I'd call it "Pretty (and I'm exercising mild self censorship and understatement) Amazing".
How about "Comgenatch Pruilding".
Cheers, the Bear
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
don7As an example one site dealing with 3d printing was making duplicates of lego blocks.
I can't imagine that's cost effective.
Mark Watson I often call it scratch building, though I can get away with it as I'm the designer. The "CG" in my business name stands for "Computer Generated". Perhaps electronic modeling or digital modeling would be appropriate terms. But I agree with Tom, I just call it 3d Printing or rapid prototyping. Both are terms that define themselves. These printers are amazing and they're getting better every day. This time last year, the Stagecoach would NOT have been possible. But now, well, check it out for yourself.. It's the size of a quarter!
Looks really amazing.
Is the completed model printed in one go or do you do printings of major subassemblies and then glue them together?
Paul
I don't think scratchbuilding is the appropriate term. Perhaps scratchforming would be closer - if the product is a three dimensional representation from an original design. If it's just a copy of a stock item, then how about just forming. If it's a copy of something somebody else designed, reproduced without permission, then the proper term is copyright infringement.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chuck
'Scratchforming' works for me too!
I find it interesting that at least two posters have raised the issue of copyright infringement. The 3D printing process is obviously vulnerable to that sort of exploitation. Perhaps here is where we need a legal opinion as to where personal use ends and copyright infringment begins. i.e. If I do one or two for myself is that an infringement vs if I made 50 copies and gave them to all my friends for a few bucks each. The answer seems clear to me.
Never the less, getting us into a legal mudhole was not my intention.
To re-phrase: What terms can we use to compliment a fellow modeler when they use 3D printing to produce a unique model. Mark Watson's N scale models look pretty good to me. Do I simply say "nice keystrokes!"
I would be curious to know what data modelers like Mark Watson used to create their models. If they produced the data to make the models on their own then I don't think we can argue with the "scratch" part of the description. If they simply scanned a physical object then the "scratch" part clearly doesn't apply.
Anyhow, regardless of your opinion this type of modeling will become much more prevalent so ultimately we will have to come up with terminology suitable to the subject, so why not sort it out now.
I went to Mark's website. He has his designs printed by Shapeways, which is one of the leading companys in the field. From Shapeways website:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 3d printers available for home use. They are expensive, but substantially lower in price than commercial models. The current " home printers" are not capable of printing fine models like those designed by Mark.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
hon30critter I would be curious to know what data modelers like Mark Watson used to create their models. If they produced the data to make the models on their own then I don't think we can argue with the "scratch" part of the description. If they simply scanned a physical object then the "scratch" part clearly doesn't apply.
The best simile for my process is as a painter creates a portrait on canvas. One could simply* a use camera, however the 3D scanner "cameras" are up in the price range of the 3D printers themselves.
Additionally, the materials and printer capabilities present specific guide lines. Creating my designs by hand, from a blank screen enables me to optimize for printer/material capabilities. * That raw data produced by 3d scanner would require extensive tweaking for optimal printability (not so simple after all). For N scale, it's far easier to start from scratch.
And since I just finished it up.. here's some more stagecoach eye candy! :D
First off, 3-D printing is not as easy as everyone thinks. You have to have some kind of background in 3-D modeling in some kind of CAD program to even get close to doing what Mark has been able to accomplish. Yes, there is google sketchup for free...but its pretty clunky compared to a professional program. Attached is a video of a train I built recently using 3-D printing. All the rack car superstructures were 3-D printed. The first six cars had a couple of the more difficult components 3-D printed, while the rest of the structures were built using traditional styrene. 3D printing is a geat companion to scratchbuilding...it does not have to replace it entirely.
http://youtu.be/6FoEEczTL3I
"Compu-Modeling"?
The reality is; the process used, is pretty much the same as with most every other item manufactured today! A Computer Aided Design (CAD) program is generated on a computer, by a technician. This program is fed into a Computer Aided Machine (CAM) raw material is chucked/fixtured into the machine(maybe by robot) and various operations performed by the machine; or, a series of machines.
Maybe "Manufactured" could work as a descriptor, also?
We all have our own interests and it is wonderful to see the diversity amongst us!
I spend roughly 10-12 hours per day on a computer. 8-10 of those hours are at work. I feel I need my modeling interests to be detached from computers! I want to cultivate and explore my mental, physical and artistic skills by this hobby, sans computer.
Other's using computers in the pursuit of this hobby, is fine, and I'm interested in viewing, just not interested in doing! Maybe I'm a hobby dinosaur?!?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
When they first came out they were called Rapid Prototyping machines, used for Rapid Prototyping components to be reviewed by engineering before being given to the tool & die makers to make from the desired materials.
I call it Rapid Prototyped models.
However on the flip side, I no longer say I wil Xerox a copy for you, or PhotoStat a picture.
hon30critter Does 3D printing qualify as scratch building?
I would have to say no, Dave. 3D printing does not qualify as scratch-building because the printer is doing ALL of the "building". For me, it falls into the realm of designing or design manufacturing.
Scratch-building - in whatever degree - involves a certain amount of hand skills of some kind. Other than inputting information into the printer's program to tell it what to do, 3D printing is pretty much a "hands-off" experience.
tstage hon30critter: Does 3D printing qualify as scratch building? I would have to say no, Dave. 3D printing does not qualify as scratch-building because the printer is doing ALL of the "building". For me, it falls into the realm of designing or design manufacturing. Scratch-building - in whatever degree - involves a certain amount of hand skills of some kind. Other than inputting information into the printer's program to tell it what to do, 3D printing is pretty much a "hands-off" experience. Tom
hon30critter: Does 3D printing qualify as scratch building?
I would disagree to a certain extent. I work with 3-D software on a daily basis doing engineering work to finance my train habit. While it's not scratchbuilding in the traditional sense using physical materials, modeling something three-dimensionally in a virtual environemnt is simply utilizing a different skill set. You still have to be able to visualize the overall project and break it down into its individual components and subassemblies, and then put them all together. That's no trivial thing. It could easily be called scratchmodeling, or more simply, just modeling.
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Let's take a page from Star Trek and call it "Replicator Modeling". As the technology advances "printing" may not be an accurate description.
Now where's my flip phone?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Since I'm being blamed for this whole thing I may as well throw my in.
To begin I do think you can't really call it "scratchbuilding". To me that phrase requires the physical manipulation of materials in sub-assemblies to create a finished product.
Still, as my son is studying this technology in college, I am well aware that it is not at all in the same category as buying something in a box from a hobby shop, and ploppling it down on the layout. Heavy design skills and specific technical knowhow are required. So this is no accomplishment to sneeze at.
And to complicate the matter even further, the technology is currently available to 3D print in color. Meaning you can even skip the painting part of the process if you want to. (And have the $ to afford it!)
If we are taking a vote, I'm in favor of "replication" as previously suggested.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
I think the NMRA should be the one defining what category 3D printing belongs to.
If one of the models in question was entered into an NMRA contest as scratch built, would it be accepted as such?
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
I see we're getting into two separate areas of definition. Manufacturing and Designing.
Well, we all know that Manufacturing means making exact copys/replicas/duplicates of a prototype on a large scale. There are different forms of manufacturing, all of which are given and discussed by their specific names. Do you call injection molding replication? Do you call casting copying? Is the lost wax process duplication?
Well, yes and no, but why use a purely generic term for something that already has a specific definition? If that's the case, we might as well call ALL mass produced model railroad products copies/replicas/duplicates. Everything made by Kato, Atlas, Athearn, ect. It's all just "replication" if you ignore the correct terminology. ;) This manufacturing process is called "3d printing". No need to call it anything but.
Now, for the designing side of the manufacturing process, why not scratch building? Before one can mass produce a product, there must be that first "master" prototype. As with all the other manufacturing types there's no kit or cheat to building that first master any other way than from scratch. There are different processes to do so, but they all require creating something from nothing. If you assemble the virtual model for use with a 3d printer, I deem you a scratch builder, just as I would someone who assembles a physical "master" for casting or any other manufacturing process. :)
mononguy63 While it's not scratchbuilding in the traditional sense using physical materials, modeling something three-dimensionally in a virtual environemnt is simply utilizing a different skill set. You still have to be able to visualize the overall project and break it down into its individual components and subassemblies, and then put them all together. That's no trivial thing. Jim
While it's not scratchbuilding in the traditional sense using physical materials, modeling something three-dimensionally in a virtual environemnt is simply utilizing a different skill set. You still have to be able to visualize the overall project and break it down into its individual components and subassemblies, and then put them all together. That's no trivial thing.
Jim,
I totally agree with you. I've used SolidWorks for designing and have done a fair amount of CNC machining in the past. You do have to be able to visualize the overall project. Even with CNC, you have to know how to break down a project in order to minimize both tool and part changes. (I sometimes liken it to a big puzzle.)
I also agree that, even though it doesn't necessarily incorporate hand skills, the "art" of 3D modeling does take a different discipline and talent; skills that must be learned and honed like hand skills are. I can, therefore, accept the label of "scratch-modleing" for building something with a 3D printer.
Although Pelle Soeberg designs, creates, and assembles his own models for his layout, he does use some sort of X-Y sheet cutter to cut out the individual pieces. (Essentially what we are doing when we put together a kit.) To me - scratchmodeling would aptly describe this type of work.
Pretty much my thoughts. A 3D printer doesn;t just magically create things out of thin air. A lot of skill is required to draw the item and get it set up to "print" properly. Perhaps not the same skills as required to cut up and glue together sheets of styrene or wood, but a skill nonetheless.
One issue though might be 'proving' you did the original design as opposed to picking up a file from someone else and producing the item.
I for oen can;t wait for a true replicator. Then instead of the time I'm takign to build 3 covered hoppers, and probably build half a dozen more, I could simply built one to the utmost best of my ability, and then crank out however many I need. And then move on to somethign else - and have all the cars I want instead of relying on what's available and how many I can build by hand in a given amount of time.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I agree with Chad. Rapid Prototyping is exactly what this is. The process was developed in engineering to speed up the process of producing a solid model of a new part. It used to take a tool and die shop weeks to produce a model of a new part. The rapid prototype process reduced it to a couple of days and reduced the cost of the model. Early RP models required a lot of clean up and filler work to make the model usable. The only real difference between the new "3D Printers" and the earlier rapid prototyping machines that have been around for the last decade or more, is the cost of the technology. You still need the appropriate three dimensional CAD file (solid model, to be exact) to feed to the "printer" and that is where the "modeling" comes in. This hobby is all about replicating the prototype railroad subject, so why would the term "Rapid Prototype" not be applicable? The real discussion is how much modeling is there in the finished item?
Jim - Preserving the history of the NKP Cloverleaf first subdivision.
Everyone:
Very interesting opinions and arguments. Thanks for participating.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that 3D printing requires some considerable skills if you are designing something from scratch.
Please keep the opinions coming. The pot is simmering quite nicely now
hon30critterSo, my question is: What do you call the process of using a 3D printer to create a unique model?
Texas Zepher and others
I should have phrased by question differently, i.e. does 3D printing qualify as scratch building, assuming that the design is a one off created by the modeler?
jasperofzeal If one of the models in question was entered into an NMRA contest as scratch built, would it be accepted as such?
Good question, and I'm glad I'm not on that rules committee!!!
hon30critter Texas Zepher and others I should have phrased by question differently, i.e. does 3D printing qualify as scratch building, assuming that the design is a one off created by the modeler? Dave
Dave,
If the above is true then what happens if the modeler makes more than one of a given item? Is it no longer scratch-building?
I still think scratch-modeling is a more apropos label for this sort of thing.