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PFM CPR Selkirk 2-10-4 - Update - Retired

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PFM CPR Selkirk 2-10-4 - Update - Retired
Posted by don7 on Friday, October 28, 2011 8:41 PM

Years ago, as I was getting ready for a divorce I sold off my model railroad collection of engines. One of the engines was a PFM CPR Selkirk.

II have always wanted to buy another Selkirk. When I did see them for sale they usually were going for five or six hundered dollars which was more than I would willingly pay.

Well today luck was good to me. I found one one e-bay. It is a PFM model, factory painted in CPR colours and it is mint. 

Other than a few test runs this engine have been in a cabinet on display only.

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Posted by selector on Friday, October 28, 2011 9:54 PM

If it is something you greatly desire, then I hope you are successful, Don.  The price seems reasonable.  I am still awaiting my Sunset issue, but it seems to be slow getting to my dealer.  I have paid in full, but no shipping notice yet.  Tongue Tied

Crandell

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Posted by don7 on Friday, October 28, 2011 10:08 PM

Crandel,

Yes, I was the successful bidder.

Strange, there were not many bidders.

The engine is a T1a, I prefer this version to the streamlined versions.

I have vague memories of the Selkirks. Used to live in Field, where the majority of these were stationed.  Father was a CPR engineer, used to drive the Selkirks once in a while, but mainly the Hudsons and Connies.

As the diesels came in there were less and less Selkirks running between Calgary and Revelstoke. The Selkirks ended up pulling grain trains mainly in Albera and Saskatchewan. They actually ran up to the end of the steam era.

I hope your Selkirk shows up soon, I remember your mentioning that it was coming. You sure did have to wait for it.

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Posted by da_kraut on Saturday, October 29, 2011 12:54 AM

Hi Don7,

CONGRATULATIONS.   Very happy to read that you now have that locomotive back.  

Enjoy.

FrankSmile

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Posted by tatans on Saturday, October 29, 2011 12:38 PM

don7

Crandel,

Yes, I was the successful bidder.

Strange, there were not many bidders.

The engine is a T1a, I prefer this version to the streamlined versions.

I have vague memories of the Selkirks. Used to live in Field, where the majority of these were stationed.  Father was a CPR engineer, used to drive the Selkirks once in a while, but mainly the Hudsons and Connies.

As the diesels came in there were less and less Selkirks running between Calgary and Revelstoke. The Selkirks ended up pulling grain trains mainly in Albera and Saskatchewan. They actually ran up to the end of the steam era.

I hope your Selkirk shows up soon, I remember your mentioning that it was coming. You sure did have to wait for it.

Remember seeing a 5900 (that's what we called them) in Moose Jaw in the 1950's,  it would not fit the turntable so they turned it on the wye behind our house, what a monster, and me with no camera, a treat indeed.

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Posted by don7 on Saturday, October 29, 2011 3:14 PM

As I mentioned my father used to drive of these, and every year we used to vacation in Eastern Canada and he would deviate off the travel plan in Albera and Saskatchewan and drive to where the Selkirks ( I forgot that they were called a 5900, thanks for reminding me ) were still running. I remember getting rides along with my father on a few occasions.

I remember a few times when he would be driving on the highway alongside one of the Selkirks on a track paralleling the highway.

I have pictures of a Selkirks on the turntables at Calgary, Field,  and Revelstoke, but remember seeing them on the Y as well.  The Y was preferred by many of the Engineers, the turntables used to at times act up on occasion when handling these large engines.

 

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Posted by Fergmiester on Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:30 PM

I love the Selkirks and was able to get  both T1a and T1c but it took time as one of them was the engine only. It took me another two years to get the proper tender for it. Even bought a Hudson tender on spec thinking I'd never find a Selkirk tender. 

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959

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Posted by don7 on Sunday, October 30, 2011 9:42 PM

Fergmiester

I love the Selkirks and was able to get  both T1a and T1c but it took time as one of them was the engine only. It took me another two years to get the proper tender for it. Even bought a Hudson tender on spec thinking I'd never find a Selkirk tender. 

I can not remember where but I came across a news item that the T4a #8000 experimental Selkirk was to be released in HO.

 I am very surprised at that news seeing there was only one and it was more or less a failure due to extrememely high maintenance requirements.

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Monday, October 31, 2011 3:19 PM

don7

 Fergmiester:

I love the Selkirks and was able to get  both T1a and T1c but it took time as one of them was the engine only. It took me another two years to get the proper tender for it. Even bought a Hudson tender on spec thinking I'd never find a Selkirk tender. 

 

I can not remember where but I came across a news item that the T4a #8000 experimental Selkirk was to be released in HO.

 I am very surprised at that news seeing there was only one and it was more or less a failure due to extrememely high maintenance requirements.

The 8000 had the water tube type and generated three different PSI boilers. 250, 850 and 1350.  The NYC also had one 4-8-4 with a water tube boiler also that was a failure in tests.  I read that the water in the sight glass ran up and down and no fireman wanted to mess with them very long. 

The pictures show the latest Sunset Selkirk with QSI sound.  The water hatches on the tender open also with screens below the individual half doors for each hatch.  I was surprised at some of the detail they included with this model.    

CZ

The smoke hood for tunnel use can be moved into place as illustrated below. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by twhite on Monday, October 31, 2011 5:30 PM

CZ:

Interesting shot of that Selkirk--that's the only other locomotive I recall seeing with that particular type of Elesco FWH--the other being the Rio Grande 1800 4-8-4's.   I'm sure there were others, but none that I recall.

Tom

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Monday, October 31, 2011 8:10 PM

Tom

I believe a few roads used them but they were not common.  The Selkirk is a nice model but the price was fairly hight since the production numbers were low.  I purchased my Sunset NP Z6 last year for less money than this one cost, but I still wanted this to compare the size to other 2-10-4's that I have.   It is a nice model overal and would look great on a passenger train on Kicking Horse Pass.   We traveled up there a few times in the late 1998 era and watched trains.  I could image that hood being used in the tunnels to shoot the smoke back over the train but I bet the crew still had problems with getting fresh air on that climb.  

CZ

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Posted by Isambard on Tuesday, November 1, 2011 7:47 PM

Ooops! Draft sent in error, now deleted. Stick out tongue

Isambard

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Posted by Isambard on Tuesday, November 1, 2011 8:29 PM

As a kid, age 14, I spent the summer of 1949 in Banff and along with many others was on the Banff station platform to witness CPR Selkirk 5935 (Sunset's prototype) on its first run through from Calgary to Revelstoke.

That summer I rode down to Field in the cab of a 5400 Mikado and back up to Banff in the cab of a T1b or T1c 5900. There certainly was no fresh air to be had in the Spiral tunnels on the way up the Big Hill!  On approaching the portal of the lower spiral, cab doors, windows  and hatches were slammed shut and a wad of clean cotton waste was reached for to breath through. The temperature in the cab shot up to perhaps 140 degrees F, oily smoke filled the cab, the noise ot the hard working engine was deafening. Doors, windows and hatches were thrown open on the open stretch between the lower and upper spirals, before buttoning up the cab again.  Very fresh air was welcomed on emerging from the upper tunnel. It was truly a memorable experience. Smile

5935 was built by Montreal Locomotive Works in March 1949 and dispositioned by the CPR to the Canadian Railway Museum (Exporail) in St. Contant, Quebec in March 1963. It is stored indoors at the museum, in good condition, and is rolled outdoors for display on rare occasions.  Sitting on the fireman's seat of 5935 several years ago certainly brought back memories of that summer of 1949.

Ah, if only I could afford a PFM Selkirk or one of Sunset's Selkirk gems! Smile

Isambard

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Wednesday, November 2, 2011 1:50 PM

Isambard

As a kid, age 14, I spent the summer of 1949 in Banff and along with many others was on the Banff station platform to witness CPR Selkirk 5935 (Sunset's prototype) on its first run through from Calgary to Revelstoke.

That summer I rode down to Field in the cab of a 5400 Mikado and back up to Banff in the cab of a T1b or T1c 5900. There certainly was no fresh air to be had in the Spiral tunnels on the way up the Big Hill!  On approaching the portal of the lower spiral, cab doors, windows  and hatches were slammed shut and a wad of clean cotton waste was reached for to breath through. The temperature in the cab shot up to perhaps 140 degrees F, oily smoke filled the cab, the noise ot the hard working engine was deafening. Doors, windows and hatches were thrown open on the open stretch between the lower and upper spirals, before buttoning up the cab again.  Very fresh air was welcomed on emerging from the upper tunnel. It was truly a memorable experience. Smile

5935 was built by Montreal Locomotive Works in March 1949 and dispositioned by the CPR to the Canadian Railway Museum (Exporail) in St. Contant, Quebec in March 1963. It is stored indoors at the museum, in good condition, and is rolled outdoors for display on rare occasions.  Sitting on the fireman's seat of 5935 several years ago certainly brought back memories of that summer of 1949.

Ah, if only I could afford a PFM Selkirk or one of Sunset's Selkirk gems! Smile

Isambard

Thanks for the story about climbing up the pass in the spirial tunnels.   I suspected that smoke would fill the cab during those long periods of time in the sprial tunnels.  Do you know if the locomotive had a smoke hood to assist with the smoke going back over the locomotive?  

Almost any long tunnel posed a problem for a steam locomotive working hard since the steam exhaust is very hot and the locomotive had to be fired hard to keep steam up while pulling up grade.  The oil smoke is a heavy oil type which tended to downward very fast in the tunnel.  

That is the main reason the Southern Pacific used the Cab Forward design locomotive to keep the crew out front of the smoke in the tunnels and snow sheds.  

CZ

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Posted by Isambard on Wednesday, November 2, 2011 5:03 PM

The 5900 Selkirks were fitted with a smoke deflector located behind the stack, which was actuated by compressed air controlled from the cab. The Sunset model of 5935 shown in the photo above shows the deflector in its actuated position. Floyd Yates, in the BRNMA publication "Canadian Pacific's Big Hill - A Hundred Years of Operation" (first printing 1985, fourth printing 1995) notes that the smoke deflectors were generally not used and frequently dismantled by the engine crews.

Isambard

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Posted by betamax on Wednesday, November 2, 2011 7:44 PM

I bought a PFM/VH T1c in the spring...

Problem is, the original owner tried to convert it to a non-streamlined version, and removed the pilot and smokebox front.  The trailing truck is also broken.  He had this hideous plow/pilot that he wanted to solder on but never did.

One of the members of the NMRA division I belong to is a master at brass and volunteered to help me restore it to it's glory. He has all the equipment (resistance rig, etc.,) to do this.  He makes models as a sideline (the masters for limited production models of freight cars) so he is very good at things like this.  After that it will be painted and decaled (hoping to find CDS decals for it).

 

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Thursday, November 3, 2011 8:13 AM

Isambard

The 5900 Selkirks were fitted with a smoke deflector located behind the stack, which was actuated by compressed air controlled from the cab. The Sunset model of 5935 shown in the photo above shows the deflector in its actuated position. Floyd Yates, in the BRNMA publication "Canadian Pacific's Big Hill - A Hundred Years of Operation" (first printing 1985, fourth printing 1995) notes that the smoke deflectors were generally not used and frequently dismantled by the engine crews.

The picture I posted has the smoke deflector in the working position, but it is can be moved to the normal position. 

CZ

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Posted by don7 on Thursday, November 3, 2011 1:34 PM

I read an article on the web about CPR's chief engineer in the 1950's and his influence on the CPR.

I have since lost the address/location of that article but it was very interesting. I have tried numerous times to locate the article and site but have been unsuccessful.

He was primarily responsible for the large number of dual purpose Pacifics that CPR had in it roster. He also was responsible for keeping CPR using steam and being one of the last to completely switch to diesel power. CPR was still ordering steam engines while most other railroads were fully embracing dieselization.

There was also an article where CPR had studied building cab-forward versions of the Selkirk's due to the smoke problems associated with the long tunnels.

If anyone is aware of that article or knows where it is located on the web would they please post a link.

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:25 PM

Brent

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Posted by Isambard on Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:31 PM

You are thinking of Henry Blaine Bowen, CPR's chief of motive power and rolling stock from September 1928 to May 1949. The last CPR steam locomotives delivered new were Bowen designed Selkirks 5930 to 5935, delivered in February and March 1949.

This may be the article you are looking forward: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/steam_locomotives/connaught.htm

Isambard

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Posted by betamax on Thursday, November 3, 2011 3:12 PM

Actually, the Selkirks were the last steam locomotives delivered to a Canadian railway. After them, the only steam locomotives built were for export, and that lasted until the early 1960s.

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Posted by don7 on Thursday, November 3, 2011 3:40 PM

Isambard

You are thinking of Henry Blaine Bowen, CPR's chief of motive power and rolling stock from September 1928 to May 1949. The last CPR steam locomotives delivered new were Bowen designed Selkirks 5930 to 5935, delivered in February and March 1949.

This may be the article you are looking forward: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/steam_locomotives/connaught.htm

Thanks for the link. It is not the link I was referring to, however it is very interesting. The article I was referring to was mainly about the CPR Pacifics, Mikes and the Hudsons.  CPR had so refined these engines that there was no need for enignes such as the Mountains and Northerns which were very common on other railroads.

CPR had two sets of each of these types of engines, but there was no real need for any more.

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Posted by don7 on Thursday, November 3, 2011 4:28 PM

BATMAN

You are right, it was the Spanner.

My Grandfather worked for the CPR and was a Roadmaster, I remember reading his issues of the Spanner that he received from CPR after his retirement.

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Posted by Railphotog on Friday, November 4, 2011 5:16 AM

So how much are these models going for on eBay?  Asking because a friend of mine passed away last year, and his son is looking to dispose of his extensive collection of brass.   He's not a model railroader, or one who is much into computers, so doesn't have a clue.  I'm curious what the market these days is for Canadian brass steam.  I assume most of the collection has only been test run, and is in all the original boxes.

Thanks!

 

 

 

Bob Boudreau

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Posted by don7 on Friday, November 4, 2011 2:25 PM

Talking to members of the local model railroad club I am advised that the estate buyers who advertise in many of the various model railroad magazines generally do not pay very well at all.

Some of the buyers will take your collection on a consignment basis but watch out as there are all sort of fees they charge. Especially if you want the collection back.

If you have the time E-Bay is the place to sell if you have the time and patience. Also the time of year, the closer to Christmas the higher the prices. Winter, is a better time to sell as more people are active in the hobby and are apt to see your ads. Summer is not a good to time to sell, buy yes but not to sell.

Also note that Canadian HO Brass locomotives usually sell at  higher prices than similar American locomotives. Reason being there are not many made.

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Posted by CP guy in TX on Saturday, November 5, 2011 9:57 PM

You paid a fair price for it. I bought my T-1c on evil bay for 650.00, and I had to paint it, redriver it, and install dcc and sound!

I'd give my eye teeth for a T-1a though.

I think CPR streamlining makes the Jubilees, Hudsons,  and Selkirks look like beer cans.

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H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.

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Posted by Isambard on Sunday, November 6, 2011 8:15 AM

Ah, but all those are very classy beer cans! But I too lust for a T1a. :)

I took soundings yesterday with a knowledgable store owner and operator who trades in brass. He suggested that a T1a, painted and in good running condition would go for around $800; but be cautious - there are some out there, but be sure to check out the drivers (white metal deterioration in some manufactured), get a spare set of drivers, see running before putting money down etc. Unpainted brass in good condition, collector's items, would go for more.

Is there a tally of who made, who imported and who sold T1a's and when?   

Isambard

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Posted by CP guy in TX on Sunday, November 6, 2011 1:54 PM

I run all my brass. Often.

I red river all of them with Greenway drivers.  Bought a pile of 75" drivers when I had a chance to. New drivers make a huge difference

Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.

H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.

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Posted by CP guy in TX on Sunday, November 6, 2011 1:56 PM

I run all my brass. Often.

I redriver all of them with Greenway drivers.  Bought a pile of 75" drivers when I had a chance to. New drivers make a huge difference with reliable operation.

Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.

H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.

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Posted by tatans on Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:04 PM

Isambard

As a kid, age 14, I spent the summer of 1949 in Banff and along with many others was on the Banff station platform to witness CPR Selkirk 5935 (Sunset's prototype) on its first run through from Calgary to Revelstoke.

That summer I rode down to Field in the cab of a 5400 Mikado and back up to Banff in the cab of a T1b or T1c 5900. There certainly was no fresh air to be had in the Spiral tunnels on the way up the Big Hill!  On approaching the portal of the lower spiral, cab doors, windows  and hatches were slammed shut and a wad of clean cotton waste was reached for to breath through. The temperature in the cab shot up to perhaps 140 degrees F, oily smoke filled the cab, the noise ot the hard working engine was deafening. Doors, windows and hatches were thrown open on the open stretch between the lower and upper spirals, before buttoning up the cab again.  Very fresh air was welcomed on emerging from the upper tunnel. It was truly a memorable experience. Smile

5935 was built by Montreal Locomotive Works in March 1949 and dispositioned by the CPR to the Canadian Railway Museum (Exporail) in St. Contant, Quebec in March 1963. It is stored indoors at the museum, in good condition, and is rolled outdoors for display on rare occasions.  Sitting on the fireman's seat of 5935 several years ago certainly brought back memories of that summer of 1949.

Ah, if only I could afford a PFM Selkirk or one of Sunset's Selkirk gems! Smile

There is a 5900 in Calgary rotting away outside, the park arranged to get 5934 but by the time  to deliver it,  it  was being scrapped but they got 5931 instead, when it was first set up they numbered it 5934, but too many railway people suggested it was wrong and it is now 5931, it should have been preserved as a working locomotive. I, along with many Calgarians and railway employees never heard them referred to as a "Selkirk"   it was always a 5900.

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