twhite Rich: Okay, NOW I get it--for some strange reason, I thought your problems were with brass 2-10-2's, not ones from BLI (talk about coming 'late to the party', LOL! ). Actually, I did have one of those Santa Fe 2-10-2's for a while (sold off most of my dual-mode BLI's, mainly because I'm strictly DC and they had too high a starting voltage to work comfortably with my other locos) and while I didn't have derailment issues with it on turnouts, it was a rough-riding little beastie, because of too MUCH lateral motion and not very good springing. It also was not much of a hauler despite its wheel arrangement. However, it did come with the hex-nut tool in the box for replacing the flangeless driver (which I did, and it's not too difficult), so you might want to check the box again. I remember both the ATSF 2-10-2 and 4-8-4 locos having this little tool in the packaging along with the spare drivers. That 2-10-4 you have is probably the model of a one-of-a-kind ATSF prototype, where a 4-wheel trailing truck was added to a 'stock' Baldwin 2-10-2. I know the later Santa Fe Baldwin 2-10-4's were absolute monsters with 74" driving wheels--close enough to the Pennsy J-1's that Pennsy even borrowed them late in the steam era for coal trains in the midwest when Santa Fe was phasing out steam. Tom
Rich:
Okay, NOW I get it--for some strange reason, I thought your problems were with brass 2-10-2's, not ones from BLI (talk about coming 'late to the party', LOL! ). Actually, I did have one of those Santa Fe 2-10-2's for a while (sold off most of my dual-mode BLI's, mainly because I'm strictly DC and they had too high a starting voltage to work comfortably with my other locos) and while I didn't have derailment issues with it on turnouts, it was a rough-riding little beastie, because of too MUCH lateral motion and not very good springing. It also was not much of a hauler despite its wheel arrangement.
However, it did come with the hex-nut tool in the box for replacing the flangeless driver (which I did, and it's not too difficult), so you might want to check the box again. I remember both the ATSF 2-10-2 and 4-8-4 locos having this little tool in the packaging along with the spare drivers.
That 2-10-4 you have is probably the model of a one-of-a-kind ATSF prototype, where a 4-wheel trailing truck was added to a 'stock' Baldwin 2-10-2. I know the later Santa Fe Baldwin 2-10-4's were absolute monsters with 74" driving wheels--close enough to the Pennsy J-1's that Pennsy even borrowed them late in the steam era for coal trains in the midwest when Santa Fe was phasing out steam.
Tom
Tom,
My fault. I should have mentioned that they were plastic shells up front.
I did find the tool in the box as you and Crandell indicated. Plus the extra driver wheel set which has flanged wheels but no gear so I couldn't swap it for the flangeless wheels as a test.
I find it interesting that you had the same lateral motion problems and the springing issues. A couple of years back, I sent the 2-10-4 back to BLI for repairs because of the lateral motion causing derailments. After two tries, BLI managed to fix the problem by placing a tighter spring on the trailing truck which took pressure off the driver wheels. Now, isn't that interesting. I have not sent the 2-10-2 back to BLI for repairs, but I wonder if that is part of the problem.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich, Tom White must have been the one to correctly account for the size disparity when there oughtn't to be one. I'm no expert on ten-coupled steamers, but he has a good eye and I am pretty darned sure that ATSF Texas type of yours is the one BLI marketed as the "Madam Queen", the first conversion that the Santa Fe did to one of their 2-10-2 engines. So, it isn't one of the later, more massive 5100's that the Pennsy borrowed. The 5011's* had as much tractive effort as the J1 verson with booster. And they were plenty big, a foot longer than the T-1/J1's. In fact, the Santa Fe units were significantly heavier.
Crandell
* -[corrected]
selector Rich, Tom White must have been the one to correctly account for the size disparity when there oughtn't to be one. I'm no expert on ten-coupled steamers, but he has a good eye and I am pretty darned sure that ATSF Texas type of yours is the one BLI marketed as the "Madam Queen", the first conversion that the Santa Fe did to one of their 2-10-2 engines. So, it isn't one of the later, more massive 5100's that the Pennsy borrowed. The 5100's had as much tractive effort as the J1 verson with booster. And they were plenty big, a foot longer than the T-1/J1's. In fact, the Santa Fe units were significantly heavier. Crandell
Rich, Tom White must have been the one to correctly account for the size disparity when there oughtn't to be one. I'm no expert on ten-coupled steamers, but he has a good eye and I am pretty darned sure that ATSF Texas type of yours is the one BLI marketed as the "Madam Queen", the first conversion that the Santa Fe did to one of their 2-10-2 engines. So, it isn't one of the later, more massive 5100's that the Pennsy borrowed. The 5100's had as much tractive effort as the J1 verson with booster. And they were plenty big, a foot longer than the T-1/J1's. In fact, the Santa Fe units were significantly heavier.
Crandell,
That would make total sense because the two ATSF locos, the 2-10-2 and the 2-10-4 are identical in size and mechanics. The C&O 2-10-4 is quite a bit bigger and heavier. Your explanation must be the answer.
Rich.
The driver set in the box is to replace the traction wheeled drivers that are on the loco. You will also notice the counter weight is different size. See my earlier post about the brasses. Unlike the prototype the model is actually supported on 2 driver sets. The front and rear drivers support the weight of the loco and supply the tractive force. The rest are along for the ride and looks.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
richhotrainHere are the two 2-10-4 locos from BLI. The C&O is in the back and the ATSF is in the front...The boiler, the driver wheels, everything, is bigger on the C&O.
The last set of Santa Fe's Texas locomotives would never had existed if it had not been for WWII. The Santa Fe wanted to order FT units instead but the war board would not permit it. Same applies to the 29xx series 4-8-4s.
This thread has become a real learning process for me. Ever since purchasing these 10 driver wheel locos 6 or 7 years ago, I could never understand the difference in size and bulk between the C&O 2-10-4 and the ATSF 2-10-4. Thanks to Selector and Texas Zephyr, I now understand those differences.
When I first got into the HO scale side of the hobby 8 years ago, I set up a smaller layout with #4 turnouts and 22" and 24" radius curves on the main line. Once I moved away from #4 turnouts to #6 turnouts, I wanted some "bigger" steamers than the 6 and 8 driver wheeler locos that I already had on my layout. So, that is when I purchased the two BLI ATSF steamers, the 2-10-2 and the 2-10-4. I quickly realized that the 22" an 24" inch curves were too tight to permit flawless operation with these 10 driver wheel locos. So, i built a new, larger layout, my current layout, with 30" and 32" radius curves. But, the problems persisted, and I grew disenchanted with the smaller size and bulk of the ATSF steamers. By comparison, the size of the C&O 2-10-4 was huge, and the added weight lent itself nicely tto smooth reliable performance on my layout.
A couple of years back, I returned the ATSF 2-10-2 to BLI for repairs. After two attempts at solving the problem, BLI managed to return the loco to me in good running order. I misspoke in an earlier reply to this thread when I stated that BLI installed a tighter spring on the trailing truck to solve the derailment problems by relieving the pressure on the driver wheels. That was not, in fact, what happened. I recalled that wrongly.
When I went back late last night and read the repair note from BLI, what they said was that they initially put a spring on the trailing truck in the first repair that was too strong, placing too much pressure on the driver wheels. On the second, successful, repair, they placed a softer spring on the trailing truck which "balanced" the weight from front to rear of the boiler and the underlying driver wheels.
As Selector and Tom Stage have pointed out, it is a question of "balance" on the longer frame of the 2-10-x steamers. If the weight between the front and rear driver wheels is not in balance, either the front driver wheels or the rear driver wheels can too easily lift up off the rails and then drop back down and derail right past curves.
There is also too much lateral movement in the 5 driver wheel sets. Between excessive lateral movement and weight imbalance, that is at the heart of the problem. So, today, I will box up the ATSF 2-10-4 and return it BLI for repairs.
I started this thread by remarking that the ATSF 2-10-2 and 2-10-4 could not successfully negotiate the divergent routes on #6 turnouts. However, added weight on the pilot truck and the trailing truck seem to alleviate that problem. Following my initial post, further testing indicated that the previously repaired ATSF 2-10-2 performed well on the main line track, but the yet to be repaired ATSF 2-10-4 had serious problems negotiating the main line curves and the straight through routes on the turnouts. These problems seem to have grown more serious over the past few years.
Once I receive the repaired ATSF 2-10-4 back from BLI, I will post the results of the repair.
Thanks to all who have replied to this thread with their comments, suggestions and advice.
If anyone is interested in reading more about the evolution of the 10 driver wheel steamer, here are some great links:
2-10-2 "Santa Fe" http://www.steamlocomotive.com/santafe/
2-10-4 "Santa Fe" http://www.steamlocomotive.com/texas/?page=atsf
2-10-4 "Texas" http://www.steamlocomotive.com/texas/
richhotrain gondola1988: You didn't say what gauge track or brand of turnouts your using. I read somewhere on another forum that the Atlas turnouts bowed up near the frog because they were taken out of the molds too soon. I also use these and had the same problem,if you push down on the frog and the turnout goes down thats the problem and an extra track spike near the frog solves the problem. Just my cure for a somewhat troublesome turnout, also the N gauge and Ho have the same problem, Jim. No question, the biggest problem with the 2-10-2 and the 2-10-4 is in negotiating the divergent routes of the turnouts. But, even on the straight through portion of the turnouts, there can be derailment problems with these two locos as they pass over point rails, guard rails and frogs. It happens at different times and on different turnouts. It is random and fairly constant. Even on the curved track portions of my layout, these two locos can derail as the middle flangeless driver wheels laterally shift and move off the top of the rails. That's why I am anxious to experiment by swapping out the flangeless driver wheel sets for the flanged driver wheel sets. I do not have these problems with any of my other steamers. I am convinced that it is these two locos that are at fault, not the track or the track work. Rich
gondola1988: You didn't say what gauge track or brand of turnouts your using. I read somewhere on another forum that the Atlas turnouts bowed up near the frog because they were taken out of the molds too soon. I also use these and had the same problem,if you push down on the frog and the turnout goes down thats the problem and an extra track spike near the frog solves the problem. Just my cure for a somewhat troublesome turnout, also the N gauge and Ho have the same problem, Jim.
You didn't say what gauge track or brand of turnouts your using. I read somewhere on another forum that the Atlas turnouts bowed up near the frog because they were taken out of the molds too soon. I also use these and had the same problem,if you push down on the frog and the turnout goes down thats the problem and an extra track spike near the frog solves the problem. Just my cure for a somewhat troublesome turnout, also the N gauge and Ho have the same problem, Jim.
No question, the biggest problem with the 2-10-2 and the 2-10-4 is in negotiating the divergent routes of the turnouts. But, even on the straight through portion of the turnouts, there can be derailment problems with these two locos as they pass over point rails, guard rails and frogs. It happens at different times and on different turnouts. It is random and fairly constant. Even on the curved track portions of my layout, these two locos can derail as the middle flangeless driver wheels laterally shift and move off the top of the rails. That's why I am anxious to experiment by swapping out the flangeless driver wheel sets for the flanged driver wheel sets. I do not have these problems with any of my other steamers. I am convinced that it is these two locos that are at fault, not the track or the track work.
Rich, I was having the same issues with Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts, until I read a tip in MR. If you look closely, the points tend to dip a little below the stock rails on either side. My higher end steam locos or rolling stock with metal wheels that were closer to prototypical profiles gave me the most trouble (they have the smallest flanges). The solution was to glue a shim, made from thin, clear window glazing with CA on top of the 2nd tie from the crossbar. I just had to make sure that when I slid it under the points, that it didn't rest on top of the spikes. The shim was just enough to 1) create a little drag to keep the points firmly against the stock rails (I don't have throwbars or switch machines installed yet) and, 2) raise the points so that they remain flush with the stock rails.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Marlon, this is one of the reasons why supporting a turnout along its entire length, and not allowing it to be incorporated in part of a vertical curve into a grade, is so important. I have found that the points rails in commercial turnouts with plastic ties can let the sharp tip of good quality points fall below the stock rail head surface next to them just enough that flanges on RP-25 profile wheel sets will often not get cammed into the desired route. When that happens to the pilot truck and first driver, no one should be surprised to see consistent problems at that turnout with one or more engines, while others don't seem to have a problem there. It really does pay to have good strong lighting incident on the trouble spot and to wear something like an Opti-Visor. You can spot these defects, once you learn what to spot in the first place.
I was looking at Opti Visors on the Walthers web site, and there are a variety of magnification powers and focal lengths. Any recommendation as to which is more or less suitable?
Marlon,
Regarding that shim that you slide under the point rails on Atlas Custom-Line #6 turnouts.
Are you saying that you place the shim all the way across the track, under both stock rails, to support the point rails?
Rich, I am also an astronomy buff with a fairly large telescope, and I have a super-zoom bridge camera and image-stablized Canon 18 X 50mm binoculars. I am a magnification nut.
Unfortunately, and more to the point, I am also essentially an aging male about to turn 60. So, for me to succeed at many things in this hobby as a late starter, I need all the light and magnification I can get. Think big!
When I was asked this question by my LHS guy, I immediately opted for the 2.75 (LX-7) lens. It was a wise choice. I use it to spot aphids on my plants, to do details repairs on my rolling stock, and even to locate those tiny no-seeum sharp shards of dried Douglas Fir sap that occasionally insert themselves into my skin when I am careless about handlng my firewood this time of year. They hurt! And they hide.
selector Unfortunately, and more to the point, I am also essentially an aging male about to turn 60. So, for me to succeed at many things in this hobby as a late starter, I need all the light and magnification I can get. Think big! When I was asked this question by my LHS guy, I immediately opted for the 2.75 (LX-7) lens. It was a wise choice. I use it to spot aphids on my plants, to do details repairs on my rolling stock, and even to locate those tiny no-seeum sharp shards of dried Douglas Fir sap that occasionally insert themselves into my skin when I am careless about handlng my firewood this time of year. They hurt! And they hide. Crandell So true, Crandell, I'm only a couple years behind you. Even being quite "nearsighted" for many years, I still used to be able to work on all that minute detail. Recently, though, needed cataract surgery and both eyes now have almost perfect distance vision, but those bifocals are a must. Don't need that tremendous amount of light @ the workbench, but an Optivisor will be needed for that real closup work. Was quite concerned for a few months after surgery, had no clue as to what vision I would end up with. I'm a finish carpenter and for almost 6 months couldn't even read a tape measure, forget about crucial molding cuts on my sliding compound. Had to farm out much of my work to those I trusted. I'd like to say I was "overseeing" their work, but how much was I going to see? But I'm back! My guys did a great job for me, Nice to be able to count on friends and great employees.
So true, Crandell, I'm only a couple years behind you. Even being quite "nearsighted" for many years, I still used to be able to work on all that minute detail. Recently, though, needed cataract surgery and both eyes now have almost perfect distance vision, but those bifocals are a must. Don't need that tremendous amount of light @ the workbench, but an Optivisor will be needed for that real closup work. Was quite concerned for a few months after surgery, had no clue as to what vision I would end up with. I'm a finish carpenter and for almost 6 months couldn't even read a tape measure, forget about crucial molding cuts on my sliding compound. Had to farm out much of my work to those I trusted. I'd like to say I was "overseeing" their work, but how much was I going to see? But I'm back! My guys did a great job for me, Nice to be able to count on friends and great employees.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I am sending in my BLI ATSF 2-10-4 today for repairs. I spoke to Larry in Customer Service yesterday, and he was quite familiar with the problem of the excessive lateral movement in the driver wheel sets. I am not sure if that degree of familiarity is good or bad. LOL
He said that the fix is to install a different spring on the trailing truck and either one or two washers to establish better balance from front to to rear of the boiler. This will permit the intended lateral movement of the driver wheels without alowing them to move off the rails.
He estimated a turnaround time of 2 months. I am in no hurry., That troublesome 2-10-4 wasn't going anywhere anyhow.
Rich, hope it solve all the troubles, I guess we'll find out in a couple months.
Marlon, while I don't have one of the engines in question in this thread, I do have a friend that is having a minor problem with his Atlas turnouts and your shim idea may be just the ticket for him. That's why I sometimes read threads I have no obvious interest in.
Thanks for passing the info along!
Jarrell
richhotrain I am sending in my BLI ATSF 2-10-4 today for repairs. I spoke to Larry in Customer Service yesterday, and he was quite familiar with the problem of the excessive lateral movement in the driver wheel sets. I am not sure if that degree of familiarity is good or bad. LOL He said that the fix is to install a different spring on the trailing truck and either one or two washers to establish better balance from front to to rear of the boiler. This will permit the intended lateral movement of the driver wheels without alowing them to move off the rails. He estimated a turnaround time of 2 months. I am in no hurry., That troublesome 2-10-4 wasn't going anywhere anyhow. Rich
I just got an email from BLI telling me that the 2-10-4 has been repaired and is being shipped back to me via UPs, with expected delivery next Wednesday.
The email said that a full description of the repairs would be included in the returned package.
I will report back to you on the nature of the repairs and the resulting performance.
Well, my CPR T1c runs well on very average club track, and is absolutely flawless at home.
The only thing I did to this older brass model is to file as much lateral clearance into the frame as I could. Sounds crazy, but every little bit helps. I weighted the heck out of the pony truck as that tended to have a mind of it's own. Of course, I opened up the tender clearance a bit as well.
It's a real squeaker around 24" curves, and looks silly doing it, but it does make it through reliably.
In my opinion, especially with older brass, people seem tentative about cutting and filing on their locos. Go slw, and be patient. It took me a month of fiddling to get that 2-10-4 reliable, but it went from being tripped up on 28" curvier to reliably making it around 24"ers. Big difference, huh?
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
richhotrain richhotrain: I am sending in my BLI ATSF 2-10-4 today for repairs. I spoke to Larry in Customer Service yesterday, and he was quite familiar with the problem of the excessive lateral movement in the driver wheel sets. I am not sure if that degree of familiarity is good or bad. LOL He said that the fix is to install a different spring on the trailing truck and either one or two washers to establish better balance from front to to rear of the boiler. This will permit the intended lateral movement of the driver wheels without alowing them to move off the rails. He estimated a turnaround time of 2 months. I am in no hurry., That troublesome 2-10-4 wasn't going anywhere anyhow. Rich I just got an email from BLI telling me that the 2-10-4 has been repaired and is being shipped back to me via UPs, with expected delivery next Wednesday. The email said that a full description of the repairs would be included in the returned package. I will report back to you on the nature of the repairs and the resulting performance. Rich
richhotrain: I am sending in my BLI ATSF 2-10-4 today for repairs. I spoke to Larry in Customer Service yesterday, and he was quite familiar with the problem of the excessive lateral movement in the driver wheel sets. I am not sure if that degree of familiarity is good or bad. LOL He said that the fix is to install a different spring on the trailing truck and either one or two washers to establish better balance from front to to rear of the boiler. This will permit the intended lateral movement of the driver wheels without alowing them to move off the rails. He estimated a turnaround time of 2 months. I am in no hurry., That troublesome 2-10-4 wasn't going anywhere anyhow. Rich
Well, I'll be darned. It runs flawlessly.
Rich,
Glad to hear of Your happy conclusion to the problem with the 10's Now park them in the roundhouse and get going on the new layout. SNOW is coming!!! I'm going to try and finish 65ft of double track main line this winter... By the way my layout is in My attic, along with My bedroom. IT'S A finished attic,,, MERRY CHRISTMAS to You and Yours,,, Your Friend,,, Frank
zstripe Rich, Glad to hear of Your happy conclusion to the problem with the 10's Now park them in the roundhouse and get going on the new layout. SNOW is coming!!! I'm going to try and finish 65ft of double track main line this winter... By the way my layout is in My attic, along with My bedroom. IT'S A finished attic,,, MERRY CHRISTMAS to You and Yours,,, Your Friend,,, Frank
Frank, good to hear from you.
Let's see some photos of that 65 foot double main line.
And, if you haven't already done so, chime in on the Where is Your Layout thread and record your attic layout.
Congrats Rich
I always had very good luck with BLI's repairs. While a lot of people get questionable engines, BLI has always fixed them up proper.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Oh NICE!!! They finally fixed your locos. That's great.
After going through all the trouble, you should just keep them. I mean they running flawlessly now.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Motley Oh NICE!!! They finally fixed your locos. That's great. After going through all the trouble, you should just keep them. I mean they running flawlessly now.
Michael,
That is my dilemma now. Whether to sell them on eBay or keep them.
Now that they run flawlessly, I am not sure if I want to keep them or not.
I would like to trim my steam roster at least a little.