UP lawsuits.

[Anonymous]

This is not a stupid UP bashing forum topic so here we go.
I just got my trains mag in on 07/31/04 & again the old topic about the UP's lawsuit on two modeling co's brings up this Question.
Q. If the UP does or does not win this lawsuit,Do you think this will CHANGE the modeling com's out there who sell models today?
I understand that there are some hobby stores that WILL stop selling UP products all together. Now I don't know if this is true.UP & CSXT ARE trying to do what thay say is infringing their logo. now down the road the NS & BNSF WILL do the same! It's only a matter of time.
The railroads are ONLY trying to protect their name, in which I agree.
As for myself: If the BNSF railroad does the same thing as the UP & CSXT, It still will not stop me from buying BNSF models.
As for the UP: thay have to do what thay have to do, It IS their rights.
BUT.................I still think that should have done this YEARS ago!
Once again please no bashing.
BNSFrailfan.
P.S. I wi***hat I didn't sell my UP kato SD90MAC now,I realy feel pretty stupid now[:(]! Because I realy love that Model.

[Eriediamond]

Well, my two cents worth says it will change things for the model manufcturers. To what extent I don't know. I would think that in todays world, the manufacturers would have already foreseen this sort of thing, so I don't think there will be that big of change. Anytime someone produces a product that represents someone elses product, whether in miniature or not, with their logos on it, are subject to this type of law suits. Therefore, I don't think it will make that big of impact on the model industry. My personal opinion is that we are kind of overreacting to this and please, don't take this as any type of bashing, it's just my opionion. Thanks, Ken

[Anonymous]

People think UP is being greedy, which there not, just doing what they have the right to. And alot of people think UP doesnt have the right or moral right to licens SP,CNW,MP,ECT....but guess what they do, they own those RR's so UP can licens them if they want to. and btw i love UP!

[BRAKIE]

To my mind it was just a matter of time before the railroads join in the licensing side of all industries,we have it with NASCAR and all other sports..
Now,I can fully understand the reasons behind licensing a company's logo,NASCAR or spots..You would have nut cases doing weird things with your logos and it just may not look good for your company even if you do not approve in the eye of the general public..Think of this..You are a stock holder or a high official for NS..Would you want to see the NS paint scheme with Nazi Southern on the model locomotive or car? Yes,friends there has been cars on e bay with some rather disgusting spoofs of road names..[:(][V] Now I don't know about you but,I don't like that type of stuff because it hurts the image of model railroading should one of those disgusting cars show up in public..[:(!]
The reason behind that thought is the majority of the general public thinks we are immature adults playing with toy trains.[V]
No,I do not blame the UP or CSX for protecting their logos.

[AntonioFP45]

AC44CTE- Actually, most people do think that UP "has the right to what it's doing!
The complaint against UP has been, HOW they've gone about doing it, plain & simple! You already know this.

It's fair to say that BNSF, NS, and the other roads won't likely be as aggressive and heavy handed as UP and will work out the licensing or royalties out with the manufacturers, quietly as CSX is doing. These railroads are keeping an eye on how the UP lawsuit unfolds.

In case no one remembers, Amtrak has done it, but there was no uproar because Amtrak wanted to make sure that the impact to model manufacturers was minimized. Additionally, Amtrak mugs, towels, trinkets, etc, do sell! CSX is on the same banadwagon, but again they're "working" with manufacturers instead of "shoving their lawyers down their throats". Big difference in public relations.

Regardless of the lawsuit's outcome, models with UP logos will continue to sell at my LHS, though a lot of the customers that regularly visit "rag on UP' continuously. UP has gotten some "nicknames" from customers that I won't even mention here. I poke fun at UP constantly, but I will still purchase a few freight cars and two locos in that paint scheme as I admire this road's history, when it had higher caliber management and good public relations. Seems like "PR" wise, things went downhill after the SP merger.

[Junctionfan]

UP should have been a little more friendly about as CSX is being. Does anybody know if CN and CP have enforced royalty payments on their logo. I will still keep buying UP stuff but I am very dissappointed that UP chose the unfriendly way about it. To me, lawyers tend to make thing worst than what they are. The railroads would be better off hiring diplomats than lawyers to negotiate things like this.

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

In case no one remembers, Amtrak has done it, but there was no uproar because Amtrak wanted to make sure that the impact to model manufacturers was minimized. Additionally, Amtrak mugs, towels, trinkets, etc, do sell! CSX is on the same banadwagon, but again they're "working" with manufacturers instead of "shoving their lawyers down their throats". Big difference in public relations.

UP has a big company web shop nowadays: http://www.4imprint.com/upstore maybe that has something to do with all these licencing stuff, if they don't do anything to protect their trademarks everybody could start producing items with UP logoos on it. not only model trains, their licencing agreements are not modelrailroad specific, could apply to any item.

btw I think I found a niche in the market: paper UPchuck bags, [:p][:p]

[Anonymous]

I've been in business for over 40 years and I don't know what happened but from my personal history I'd say that the first thing that UP did was send a letter to Athearn and Lionel and ask them to stop production without compensation. Then after giving them ample time they sent a "cease and desist letter". Then their was the "threat of a lawsuit". And now the lawsuit itself.

This will have a far reaching effect. Since our country goes on precedent, Athearn and Lionel will porbably lose, since Amtrack is already collecting its royalty. I don't think that it will raise the price of a model anymore then an increase in the sales tax. Since UP will be making a percentage they're going to want the product to sell as it will enrich their coffers.

We pay licensing fees every day. The next time you go to Wally world look at the tee shirts that have logos on them and every one of them is licensed. Look at the NFL. As Brakie said "look at NASCAR".

The licensing of UP is not going to hurt the company. Americans have a short memory and in a year UP sales will be greater then they are now. For those that feel like UP was wrong and wont buy the product I say "get out of the way and let the guy behind you step up to the counter and make his purchase". For every one that burns, repaints, or throws away a UP product - there's going to be at least two other people to take your place.

I have no UP items in my empire, but it is because of selection, I'd rather buy a colorful BLATZ BEER reefer then a plain UP box car. I don 't think that Armour yellow is that pretty.

One good thing about this lawsuit is, it's given a lot of people that don't have time or guts to model, something to write and talk about. As far as the hobby shops are concerned, they are in business to serve the customer and thay will continue to buy what they can sell.

And talking about modeling - I'm going to the layout room and enjoy myself until time to go to church.

Have a blessed day and remember SANTA FE ALL THE WAY

Bob

[Anonymous]

Actually NS is trying to set up a licencing program but they aren't doing a good job at it.

[ben10ben]

Lionel made their first model of a Union Pacific train, the M-10000, back in the 1930s. They have been making UP trains since then, and this is the first complaint about it. If UP wanted to protect their trademark so badly, why did they wait so long to go about doing it?

Before someone tries to tell me that Lionel licenses their products, Lionel registered their trademark in the early 1900s, and has been enforcing its missuse use as well as licensing since then.

By the way, UP obviously has every legal right to protect their current trademark. That's not the issue, as was stated above. The issue is that they're doing it, and, at that, asking for so much invasion into the process.

[Anonymous]

All of the UP raving, ranting, and bashing has absolutely no effect on my modeling, I have been modeling UP for a long time, and will continue to do so, If people don"t like what I model, then that is their problem, and definitely not mine, Why doesn"t everyone grow up and accept UP lisensing, it will happen to everyone"s favorite prototype to model, sooner or later, might as well accept it now, or take up a whole new hobby.



Mac.

[Anonymous]

ok i get it, it seems we need to get over this, and stop complaining about it, because no matter what we say or do nothing will change, because you know what UP thinks about us when we complain? they dont give a @%&$! they dont, so we need to just stop talking about it, because were not gonna change anything.

[Anonymous]

I model the U.P so I am somewhat concerned about the current fuss. The only way I would truly lose in this battle is if U.P makes it too difficult/expensive for me to add to my collection. I don't "love" the U.P. I model the U.P because I like it's paint scheme. I admire the people that designed, built and work for the company. I don't feel a need to "support" U.P. My paltry salary wouldn't pay the taxes on the taxes on the taxes of U.P's revenue. If U.P would have stated the licensing fee was going to benefit the "Heritage" program or they were going to begin "policing" their corporate image, they probably wouldn't have come across as being greedy. Nobody has a problem spending money. It's what they get for that money is what's important.

[Anonymous]

I sit over here in England with open mouthed amazement, is it really true that Railroads are licencing there trademarks, when will this nonsense all end. I agree that this shouldnt upset our modelling but what has a model train got to do with corporate imaging.
I feel that this is only the result of lawyers who feel that they can squeeze more dollars and cents out of the average modeller.
You cant go railfanning now without being harrased by police or some other official, it makes me wonder if Railroads are doing there best to drive away Railfans and modellers

[Anonymous]

Terry Thompson's editorial in this month's MR (which showed up this morning) is the most sensible writing I've seen yet on this topic. Bravo, Terry.
And not just because I'm an Operation Lifesaver volunteer, either. [^]

--
Doug

[Anonymous]

I agree that Mr. Thompson's editorial was outstanding. He really explained the situation in a complete and insightful way. Now if we can only get the Class I's to use his recommendations.

[cheater2]

Gentlemen, if you think this thing will stop with UP, you're being naive.

Here's a paste from a mailing list I belong to, from an email received today:

"CSX Closing Down Down My Website 'Fallen Flags Decals'

It is a sad day to have to realize that our rights to just make
decals for the railroads of our past is now here.

Today I had to sign for a registered letter to Fallen Flag Decals
from the law firm of Atlantic Beach Law, P.A. to inform me that I was
infringing on the rights of CSX Proprietary Logos.

The letter stated that "Our firm has made numerous efforts to contact
you." Well, I haven't moved for the last 18 years. I've been right
here.

They claim my decals are "likely to cause confusion or mistake. It
will deceive the public in to thinking that you and your company have
some affiliation or connection with CSX and that CSX has authorized
their products." (Isn't that ridiculous?) "This is a flagrant
violation of CSX's rights," (also covers TC). It states that "I
must cease and desist using all CSX marks immediately and destroy all
products featuring the mark by Aug 31, 2004." Believe it or not, this
list is a very long list covering railraods in the 1890's. How about
Alabama Mineral and Chesapeake & Nashville etc.?"

I question whether CSX has the right under existing intellectual property law to claim ownership of logos they stopped using years ago and for logos that they have not acted to protect for years. Wish I knew an intellectual property law attorney to put these questions to.

And isn't it time for the model railroading hobby to organize and to start giving these companies the huge public relations black eye that they deserve?

First UP, now CSX, who will be next?

Model railroading needs to look very hard at how similar actions have affected the automobile modeling hobby. There are certain automotive models that are not being made simply because of the cost of licensing the designs.

What if the railroads decide that they're unhappy with the various historical societies' use of their logos?

What will happen if CSX decides that the Tennessee Central Museum can't use the name or logo of the TC?

The ramifications of what is starting to happen are far-reaching.

IMO the only way to fight these companies is to make so much noise in the media that they re-think what they're doing.

[jkeaton]

"Lionel made their first model of a Union Pacific train, the M-10000, back in the 1930s. They have been making UP trains since then, and this is the first complaint about it. If UP wanted to protect their trademark so badly, why did they wait so long to go about doing it?"

Didn't Lionel actually charge UP to make that model? I read somewhere that when Lionel released it's "20th Century Limited" after WW II, they charged the NYC, General Motors, Budd, etc. for the tooling to make the trains - right down to having Timken Bearing pay to have a tiny "TImken" cast into the bearing end caps on the trucks? If Lionel did the same thing with the M-10000 in the 1930s, then Lionel will have an interesting precedent to use in the court case.

If it ever goes to court.

[Dbcxyz123]

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD D[censored] Them!!! [banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][banghead][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox][soapbox]

[ben10ben]

"Didn't Lionel actually charge UP to make that model?"
Not quite. I don't think that UP had any part in the making of the M-100000.

However, there are a couple of other interesting cases.

Back in 1948, Lionel wanted to release a model of a new GM diesel loco. GM gladly supplied them with plans for their current model locomotive, the Phase IV F-3. New York Central and Santa Fe both paid a good chunk of the tooling costs for these engines, and, in exchange for that, the first 4 years of F-3 production saw this engine made only in those two road names.

Also, in the late 1950s, American Flyer(A.C. Gilbert) didn't catalog a single UP passenger set, although they had for years made the Santa Fe Superchief. UP noticed this, and went to the expense of having an American Flyer set repainted for Union Pacific colors. They then sent this set to A.C. with the offer to pay all tooling expenses for the set if they would just make the set.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuddlyjools

I sit over here in England with open mouthed amazement, is it really true that Railroads are licencing there trademarks, when will this nonsense all end. I agree that this shouldnt upset our modelling but what has a model train got to do with corporate imaging.
I feel that this is only the result of lawyers who feel that they can squeeze more dollars and cents out of the average modeller.
You cant go railfanning now without being harrased by police or some other official, it makes me wonder if Railroads are doing there best to drive away Railfans and modellers

I don't think it is fair to pin this on lawyers. I'm sure the decision was made by someone in accounting (in order to increase the revenue at very little expense) or by the UP's corporate governing body. As in any legal representation - it is the client that makes the decision of whether to sue or not, not the attorney. It a shame that the legal profession constantly gets beat up on, especially when a jury gives a large award. Funny thing I notice - the person who complains most about lawyers causing huge jury awards is usually the person who is most proud of how he "got out of" jury duty.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cheater2

The letter stated that "Our firm has made numerous efforts to contact
you." Well, I haven't moved for the last 18 years. I've been right
here.

That means it took them forever to find your address and phone number. [D)]

QUOTE:
They claim my decals are "likely to cause confusion or mistake. It
will deceive the public in to thinking that you and your company have
some affiliation or connection with CSX and that CSX has authorized
their products."

So print a disclaimer on the decal sheet. Duh!

QUOTE:
It states that "I
must cease and desist using all CSX marks immediately and destroy all
products featuring the mark by Aug 31, 2004."

Destroy them before we know whether CSX or UP wins the suit? That's a tad premature. Stop selling them, sure. Destroy them? Then they'll ask for proof. Don't have it? Search warrant time. Turn 'em over if you lose.

QUOTE:
Believe it or not, this
list is a very long list covering railraods in the 1890's. How about
Alabama Mineral and Chesapeake & Nashville etc.?"

I question whether CSX has the right under existing intellectual property law to claim ownership of logos they stopped using years ago and for logos that they have not acted to protect for years. Wish I knew an intellectual property law attorney to put these questions to.

That's what the meat of this lawsuit's all about. I don't claim we have a royalty-free right to current or even recent marks, but 110 years ago?! Come on! Even 50 years ago! You killed the logo. Now you want to claim it? Bizarre.

I agree with Terry. Donate the money if it's not really about the money. Put your money where your PR spokesman's mouth is.

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: You are a stock holder or a high official for NS..Would you want to see the NS paint scheme with Nazi Southern on the model locomotive or car? Yes,friends there has been cars on e bay with some rather disgusting spoofs of road names..

Actually, strictly enforcing trademarks might increase this sort of thing, because people will do it to get around the trademark laws. In fact, there probably already is a precedent establishing First Amendment protection for these things.

QUOTE: And alot of people think UP doesnt have the right or moral right to licens SP,CNW,MP,ECT....but guess what they do, they own those RR's so UP can licens them if they want to.

This may be true of railroads recently acquired or merged, whose trademarks were properly purchased, and registration was still in force at the time of said acquisition. But this is not necessarily true of predecessors of predecessors whose registration lapsed long ago, or whose trademarks were basically abandoned when the final details of the merger were worked out.

(According to a friend of mine, in some cases where the acquiring railroad didn't intend to continue the use of the acquired line's trademarks, they were simply stricken from the bill of sale and basically abandoned to reduce the acquisition price.)

[comprail]

I have to agree with others that the UP seems to be going to the extreme. Yes, they do have the right to control their trademark and logos, but it does seem to be rather late in the game. UP models have been out there for years. So are they going to get into the modeling business or have someone employed at the manufacturers so they can have 'control over the quality of the products sold'? Probably not , but thats the impression I get. Another thing, could it be possible that by bringing out the lawsuit the way their handling it could actually cause the 'confusion and deception as to the source of origin of its goods' and give the feeling that they are sponsored by them? Just a thought.

[dinwitty]

I'll send UP a penny for compensation...


I compare this to Nike teeshirts, I buy a shirt with a Nike logo and I am advertising for them?
They should pay me to be a walking advertisement....

Any model train with anyones logo advertises that line, a kind of free advertising.
Its all about money, really.
They should be smart tho and make sure it doesnt price a model out of existance.
But it does bug me sometimes that the cost of a model is simply a money fee that doesnt do anything that went to the production of a model, just another money move.

:shrug:

[Anonymous]

It's more than just an accounting thing, or wanting to "increase revenues". This is all part of an overall emphasis within corporate America to protect thir images and their good names. Just beacuse a company CAN do something, does not mean that is SHOULD do something. UP CAn close thier doors a go out of business too, but that doesn't mean that they should.

It's time that these companies realized that modeling their systems provides free advertising and good PR when they're seen at train shows. It also helps to get kids thinking about having a career with the RR's. Sure these companies need to protect their names, but they ALSO need to do what they can to get their names out into the public in favorable lights. Here's what I think they shuold do:

1. License their logos and images to the modeling industry. The fee MUST be low, maybe even a token amount, but they MUST have veto priveldges over the use of their stuff, which will give them som leverage over quality control and usage.

2. They SHOULD consider helping or encouraging the usage of their logo over a competitor's logo. For instance, if UP wants to out in the public's mind in a positive fashion, they should try to get more UP modelling stuff out than lets say BNSF or CSX. This may require some funding from the RR to help subsidize the product.

3. They SHOULD sponsor a couple of larger model train clubs & layouts. What better ambassadors to a company than a bunch of happy hobbyists (1 step from psychos) that rant and rave how great your company is?

How do we get this to the corporate guys so they'll think about it?

Mark in Utah