Please, no nickel silver users ranting about what junk brass track is and what an idiot I am for using it. I made my decision after research of the forums back 3-7 years and do not regret it. It is down, ballasted and I'm not moving it.
What I would like to hear from are other brass track users, particularly those running DC and how they deal with common track issues like cleaning schedules, conductivity to turnouts, weathering track, transition to nickel silver track (if you use both), and any other tips you have utilized. Also, those who "gleam" their track: What is your long term opinion of how well that process works on brass track.
I will be expanding my layout after a move and will want to utilize larger radius track than 22" which is the largest brass snap track was made. Is any brass flex track other than the old fiber ties available? If nickel silver flex is the only option I guess I will have to go with that.
We have some brass at the club. Best thing we find is to get it clean and keep a thin coat of CRC 2-26 on it to prevent corrosion. We have the least problems with it that way. Also soldering the joiners will help a good bit as well.
Springfield PA
Just a few comments:
Literally thousands of train-kilometers have been run on brass rail. Most of the anti-brass feeling is generated by the fact that, on club layouts that only got run once a month, corrosion would build up. That, and the, "It don't look like steel," propaganda put out in the past, results in a lot of opinions that can't be substantiated by facts.
If you have brass, use it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - including some brass rail)
Eagle-scout my self I installed some brass track about a year and half ago and have ran into not a single problem! I all so run DCC!
Far as cleaning the same as my nickel plated track but I cheat. Most of my trains have a cheap Train Line track cleaner in tow. I have a good sizes layout, about 300 feet of track and I have not used my bright boy but maybe 5 times in the last 3 years.
Because most people think brass is junk I got a great deal at Local Train Show a few years ago. I bought 20 turnout for $10.00. I am sure the guy was chuckling to him self thinking I was a idiot. I have had 6 of them installed for over a year now with out a problem.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
A friend of mine started with brass track and this was in the 1990s.He switched to DCC and ran trains regularly with no trouble.He kept hearing that you could not get reliable DCC operation with brass and finally switched to nickel silver track.
Now he hardly ever runs the layout because he has to clean the track all the time ,a problem he did not have with the brass.
So go figure,I told him if it ain't broke ,don't fix it .But he did anyway,now he doesn't enjoy his HO layout anymore.
I imagine when nickel silver track first came out they had to trumpet it's superiority over brass to get people to buy it. Over the years those "benefits" have been repeated over and over again to justify dumping their brass and newer modelers who have never used brass just assume all the benefits are true.
I will make the same offer a poster made several years ago: If you want to throw out your brass track, let me know and I will pay the shipping to have it sent to me instead and give you a small bonus for the track to boot.
When I was running HO on brass I used NO OX, a liquid cleaner, on my track. It's now sold as a grease from Walthers and probably other places. Here's the manufacturer site http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html
I mostly don't use brass track - In S scale only code 148 is available in brass which is larger than I want for a scale layout. But I have used it for Christmas layouts without problem.
Enjoy
Paul
Catt A friend of mine started with brass track and this was in the 1990s.He switched to DCC and ran trains regularly with no trouble.He kept hearing that you could not get reliable DCC operation with brass and finally switched to nickel silver track. Now he hardly ever runs the layout because he has to clean the track all the time ,a problem he did not have with the brass.
Hmm.... maybe I should throw out all that NS track I have being saved for my next layout and replace it with brass?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
1.) Clean all the trach thoroughly. A carborundum eraser (Bright Boy) will work well.
2.) Remove all the residue from step one. Try a small handerchief wetted with a bit of rubbing alcohol.
3.) Clean ALL the wheels of ALL rolling stock. If it's within your budget, replace any plastic/Delrin wheels with metal wheels.
4.) Apply a very, very limited amount of light oil (Wahl's Clipper Oil if you can find it). This application should be about one small drop for every 10 to 15 (actual) feet of track.
5.) Run the trains constantly. As noted in a previous reply, dust is the worst enemy. The best defense against dust is frequent operation.
Good Luck!
It's common sense to say "old is bad, new is good"... Beyond that, one have to rely on practical experience to judge a thing impartially.
Our yard is entirely made out of sectional 9" brass track. It has been in use for a year now and we never operate more than once per month and we never had to clean this part of the layout. However, we cleaned the nickel silver switches twice since then. The previous yard was built with the same tracks that we salvaged and no conductivity problems. We used it because we were short on nickel flextrack and it was easier to build the yard with sectional components. It was temporary measure to get the layout operationable as soon as possible with nickel replacement in mind. It's not half-bad and will probably last as long as I will decided to postpone any ballasting project.
When we decided to use the old brass track, I was against it for four reasons already mentionned; sectionnal track doesn't look good, too many joints and electrical conductivity, brass need maintenance and doesn't looks realistic. Honestly, I've been surprised and don't feel the urge to replace them. I would be curious to see what they would look if properly ballasted and weathered. BTW, all in good old DC.
Matt
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
eaglescout What I would like to hear from are other brass track users, particularly those running DC and how they deal with common track issues like cleaning schedules, conductivity to turnouts, weathering track, transition to nickel silver track (if you use both), and any other tips you have utilized. Also, those who "gleam" their track: What is your long term opinion of how well that process works on brass track.
In my experiences with brass track, brass oxidation was the biggest impediment to decent operations. The rate of oxidation of brass varies greatly with climate, humidity, temperature, and salts in the air. At sea, polished brass would visibly tarnish in a matter of a few hours. A few minutes of sweating would tarnish my polished brass belt buckle. OTOH, here in Colorado high country with 20% or less humidity most of the time, brass (and steel) will stay pristine for weeks or even months.
In Northern Virginia in a spare room in non-air conditioned home, if the trains (HO) were not run twice a week, the track would have to be cleaned or the trains would sputter and stall. Twice a week with metal wheels was what it took to keep the oxidation on the rails broken down in that climate. I also had a lot of problems with brass wheels and trucks on steam tenders. They too would have to cleaned to remove the oxidation to get decent low speed performance.
A very fine film of electrical contact cleaner, CRC 2-26, Wahl clipper oil, No-Ox, or metal polish will slow brass oxidation. Which is more effective? Couldn't tell you, I've never done and I have never heard of any pseudo-scientific testing. Too thick a film, and you will have an oily, gunky mess. I have observed that Brasso works better to prevent brass oxidation than Never-Dull, but the Never-Dull is my choice for cleaning heavy oxidation.
I haven't used brass track in any other climates or layouts - I switched to code 70 rail or smaller back in the '70s.
There was plenty of code 100 brass plastic tie flex track made in the '60s and '70s. But frankly I don't care for the oversize ties and rail of code 100 track, and the yellow shine of brass rail. If I were going to use brass track, I would use it where the trains are run the most, and save the nickel silver with its greater oxidation resistance for areas that didn't have trains rolling on the track as frequently.
I have no proof because I never tried "gleaming" brass and nickel silver side by side - but I believe that gleaming is more effective with nickel silver because of its seeming greater ability to be burnished to a very smooth surface, and its greater hardness allows maintaining that smooth surface longer.
There have to be reasons why nickel silver is used for silverware, and not brass. I suspect the ability to be finely polished and maintain that finely polished look is one of them.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
eaglescout conductivity to turnouts
, transition to nickel silver track (if you use both),
What is your long term opinion of how well that process works on brass track.
I will be expanding my layout after a move and will want to utilize larger radius track than 22" which is the largest brass snap track was made. Is any brass flex track other than the old fiber ties available?
P.S. While I was one of the first people to regularly use NS track (first in 1964 and 100% since about 1969) over brass, I seriously considered going back to it when I swiched from DC to command control (1982). This is because it conducts electricity so much better than NS. At that time the command signal was just a carrier on a constant DC voltage. It was much harder to get the signal to the decoder than it is today with the DCC type signal. However by 1982 NS had become the mainstream for serious modelers and I saw the future supply problem if I went with brass.
P.P.S I like the color that brass weathers naturally to on the sides. I never had to paint it. I don't like the color on the top shinny part of the rail.
riogrande5761 Catt: A friend of mine started with brass track and this was in the 1990s.He switched to DCC and ran trains regularly with no trouble.He kept hearing that you could not get reliable DCC operation with brass and finally switched to nickel silver track. Now he hardly ever runs the layout because he has to clean the track all the time ,a problem he did not have with the brass. Hmm.... maybe I should throw out all that NS track I have being saved for my next layout and replace it with brass?
Catt: A friend of mine started with brass track and this was in the 1990s.He switched to DCC and ran trains regularly with no trouble.He kept hearing that you could not get reliable DCC operation with brass and finally switched to nickel silver track. Now he hardly ever runs the layout because he has to clean the track all the time ,a problem he did not have with the brass.
Jim,Like all "new" things in the hobby "experts" came forth in the pages of MR and declared NS rail was the best thing that ever happen in the hobby...Such pushes has covered up a lot of simple truths in the hobby.
Brass track seldom needed clean with anything more then a home made track cleaning car with a bright boy attached and that method still works but,you still see infomercials pushing high dollar track cleaning cars-some looks like a old fashion beefed up Life Like track cleaning car that used blue tinted liquid track cleaner..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
To anybody that thinks brass track is toxic waste I invite you to come to my house and observe my garden railway. It's been in operation since the summer of 2001, I use wireless DC track power, brass track, outside, through snow, hurricanes, hail, rain, blistering sun and bird poop. I run trains no problem and clean the track only once a year in the spring. I clean the track with a rag soaked in WD-40, works like a champ. I expect that in a protected environment inside a house brass track will give excellent results and may even outlast you.
In the dark and unenlightened days of the cave-man all I and my friends had was brass track. We never had any of the problems that NS users associate to brass. Truthfully, I've had lots of problems with NS that I didn't have with brass and I even have to clean the NS far more frequenly than I did brass. I would expect that those that dismiss brass probably never used it. If I remember correctly the big reason that NS was pushed was for the rail profile, tie and spike detail, and color being more realistic than the brass offered at the time and it didn't tarnish. That lead people to think because it didn't tarnish that you didn't need to clean it. I've seen more articles in MR and MRC about cleaning NS track than I ever did in the days of brass. What does that tell you?
I also open the offer to help any modeler unload whatever useless, evil, environment destroying, non-PC brass track they may have for the cost of postage and a bit of greenage.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Eric's three yards have brass, sectional rail on it...and they needed little cleaning since laid a couple of years ago...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Since the original post forbids the bashing of brass track by NS users , I'd suggest not bashing NS either. Otherwise you're not playing by the same rules and just asking for a fight.
I've been using brass track since the 1960's and have never had a problem. If the track is painted and weathered, it is difficult to tell the difference between brass and nickel silver at any normal viewing distance. As far as oxidation goes, I discovered many years ago that a small dab of LaBelle light oil applied to the railheads of each mainline track about once a year, and spread around by passing trains will end your track cleaning problems completely.
I'm in the process of building a new layout now , and while I had to use new nickel silver flextrack for the main lines (because brass is no longer available) I'm re-using all my old brass track for sidings and yards. As long as you run your trains fairly frequently you'll have no problems with brass track despite what the "experts" say.
As far as DCC goes, I'm with you on that one too. I just bought a new DC powerpack to replace an older one that had given 30 years of reliable service. With the number of locomotives that I have and the cost and hassle of installing those decoders. I'd probably have to declare bankruptcy if I ever switched to DCC.
If it works for you - stick with it! It's YOUR layout, and it's supposed to be FUN!
Second hand modeler,
Unless I missed something I don't see anyone "bashing" nickel silver. Evaluating the claims that it is far superior to brass track, in my estimation, is not bashing. I also stated that I may be combining some nicklel silver flex track on my expanded layout. I don't think I would be doing that if I was dead set against it. I have also stated on other threads that when evaluating whether to use brass or nickel silver one should determine what enviorment their layout will be in to determine if oxidation will be a major problem with brass track.
I have some brass track on my layout in one of my yards (the rest is N/S). It's 56 years old because it's a yard I purchased from my RR club when we moved (pieces were auctioned off to the members). For 8 years, I ran this yard at my club on a monthly basis, and I started using it on my home layout with DC (but have switched to DCC). Therefore, I think I qualify to comment on DC and brass track.
On my layout, the brass track gets cleaned more often than my N/S track. Both get dirty at the same rate, but I can see the oxidation on the brass rail and I can't on the N/S. Therefore, I swipe the brass rail more often with a BrightBoy to keep it shiny. Since brass needs more elbow grease to keep it looking good, N/S is that much easier to maintain.
BTW, I think that's why some people here think that brass track stays cleaner (despite the science that says that's impossible). Brass track, when it corrodes, looks dirty so people clean it until it's clean. This can take many strokes of the BrightBoy before it really shines again. N/S rail, OTOH, does not look dirty when it corrodes. Therefore, people might give it a swipe with the BrightBoy and pronounce it's clean with actually getting all the surface corrosion off the head of the N/S rail.
DC or DCC makes no difference in power conductivity. If it works in DC, it'll work on DCC. With DCC the power is the signal, so if you have power you have signal.
The No. 1 problem with conductivity is the environment your layout is in. Dust is a killer, as well as humidity, salinity, etc. in varying degrees. For example, at my club, dirty track is a constant problem. We run with only metal wheels, clean the track monthly, etc. But we're in a large, dusty room near the ocean where we are still sanding & cutting wood, plaster, etc., and that stuff just settles on everything...especially with HVAC and ceiling fans. Meanwhile, at my layout 30 miles inland, I probably clean the track twice a year and it's probably not needed. I don't have HVAC, I only run once a month, I have lots of plastic wheels, and more. But my environment is relatively clean and I don't do much woodworking next to the layout.
tomikawaTT,Um, brass does not look like steel. It's not propaganda, it's fact. I have yet to see yellow steel unless it's a reflection off the setting or rising sun. Nice, clean shiny N/S looks like nice, clean shiny steel. Nice, clean shiny brass looks like...brass. Where's the propaganda?
One other thing is rail size. Has brass rail come out in Code 70 or even Code 83? All I've seen has been Code 100, which is a strike against brass. Trains look better on smaller rail because the trains look bigger. Smaller couplers, smaller flanges, narrower wheel treads, finer detail, and, yes, smaller rail size all go towards making the model look more massive...which isn't easy to do when it's less than 3" high. It's one of the big things that turned me away from N-scale when I was a kid because all I saw were giant rails, large flanges, and enourmous couplers.
tangerine-jack,My neighbor had outdoor G-gauge brass track, too. He even took it up every winter. During warmer weather, we'd go outside and run his loop, generally once a week. And every single time, we had to clean the brass rail in order to get the trains to run (all Aristo locos with a big MRC ControlMaster 20).
eaglescout,A word like "propaganda" is just a smidge prejudicial, doncha think? "...useless, evil, environment destroying, non-PC brass track..." is just a tad sarcastic, no? "Like all "new" things in the hobby "experts" came forth in the pages of MR and declared NS rail was the best thing that ever happen in the hobby..." is perhaps a little over-the-top, hmm? "I imagine when nickel silver track first came out they had to trumpet it's superiority over brass to get people to buy it. Over the years those "benefits" have been repeated over and over again to justify dumping their brass and newer modelers who have never used brass just assume all the benefits are true." Implying that any benefit of N/S rail is a lie might just be a bash of N/S to some people...
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
Why are you so hostile? My questions were to share with fellow brass track users. If you like nickel silver go for it. Again, I have stated on this and previous threads there are those who should use nickel silver for various reasons and I may include some myself in the future. Your opinion of "propaganda" is just that, your opinion. There are plenty of other posts to express it on these forums--hence the heading "Brass track users ONLY."
I thought the original post was to discuss your usage of brass track, not the false gospel of the NS promoters. Though there has been plenty of useful information on how to successfully use brass track, enough of the conversation has been anti NS. This gives NS users no chance to reply to the comments about it's merits or lack there of. That's why I made the comment I did. I guess nobody is "bashing" per say.
That being said, I've used brass in the past and had few problems with the running quality, only the appearance was an issue . It was a small layout using track and turnouts from my youth. When I demolished that layout and built a new one I decided that since I was going to replace all of the turnouts I had better replace the track too. I wanted code 83 Peco turnouts so that made my decision to switch all of the track as well. For those that still use brass track, more power to you.
Why do we always get people trying to convert others to another type of rail? I've used N/S AND brass in combination here for some time...and have had no issues with conductivity or cleaning/oxidation either...
Sometimes people just need to step back from the screen and relax...
The layout i just tore out had Brass and Nickel mixed and it ran ok,now the sidings that had Brass if they were not used in a long time i had to clean the track,the rail joiners were different that i had to try and slide then to get contact.The new layout has all Nickel because that is only what is out.And forgot that i had some old Tyco silver track that was mixed in also.
Russell
Paul3,
If you go to a humid place (North-Central Tennessee will do) and find some rail that hasn't seen any traffic for a couple of days, you'll see prototype steel rail that looks like brass. It has a fine golden sheen of early-stage rust. Of course, the web and base don't look `brassy,' but those get painted anyway. At least, on my layouts they do.
I've actually laid some of my small store of code 70 brass at the ends of industrial sidings, just to capture that specific look. Lots more realistic than bright, shiny nickel silver.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
One consideration in brass's favour is that there is less resistance with brass rail than with nickel-silver, which is not silver at all, but an alloy. Technically, silver is the best conductor of electron flow. It is, however, subject to oxidation; hence it's limited use.
Having experienced using both, I can say-hindsight bring 20-20-that if kept well-maintained, and weathered, there is little visual difference between the two. I know that brass, bronze, etc, are pretty tenacious metals, and do lend themselves to craftsman-level integrity.
I guess this thread has turned into which is better NS or brass.
I have used both with success and both need some cleaning periodically. But I would go with NS for appearance. I have yet to see prototype track that looks brassy regardless of the state of rust. OTOH if you want your NS track to look realistic you need to paint most of it. Even mainline track doesn't look silvery on the sides.
Of course not all brass (or NS for that matter) are the same. The alloy mixture may vary and other metals may be included as well which changes the properties. So some of the difference experiences may be due to using different alloys.
So in the end, use what you like, have on hand, is cheapest, or whatever.
Just to be clear, I'm not bashing NS rail and yes I am being toungue in cheek when I say "evil not PC etc".
NS rail has it's benefits such as a more prototypical profile (which I mentioned in my post). I was only stating that in my experience I have gotten good results with brass and I have experienced none of the percieved problems with it. I apologize to anyone that is offended by my experiences or to those that have had different experiences that were not mine. I can only state what I know about from 40 years of my personal experience in the hobby and I'm sure that if you experienced anything different then it negates anything I might have learned. Sorry for sharing.
Thanks for all the posts and ideas on brass track. I was afraid there for awhile the thread was going to get real nasty which was not my intent and why I titled the post the way I did. Fortunately, at the end it appeared the hatchet was buried and things went back to just discussing ideas and the relative benefits of both types of track. To those who use nickel silver track and like it, enjoy, and don't let anyone talk you out of it. I may be joining you soon as I expand my layout. To those who use brass or are reluctant to try brass track, be assured there are many of us still out there that not only use brass track but are more than satisfied and happy with it. Even though this thread may drive up the price of brass track on Ebay I hope it has helped others as much as it has helped me.
Good model railroading to all.
Where's the thread for horn hook couplers?
I'm a DC user, and I'm not pro brass track or anti brass track - but I got rid of all my brass track years ago. Why you ask? Because I have never found it practical to reuse much in the way of track from one layout to another.
Once you glue it down, as I do, balast it, paint and weather it - taking it up and trying to reuse it is entirely too much like work and very little can be effectively reused.
So, if I built a layout in 1968, and still hoad that layout, I might still have some brass track - but I don't, so I don't.
Sheldon