Where'd they go?

[selector]

I am finding it difficult to see where this thread can go from there that will improve it in any way, or at least add something to it that we haven't already discussed this time or in previous incarnations.

It seems to me that it boils down to 'delivery.'  Some people know how to give critcism and advice, while others seem to be blunt about it.  On the receiving end, there are those who can distance themselves from the emotional aspect of the hobby, and about which they are receiving feedback, while others are easily...umm....bruised.

In the end, dialog is what should get us through the differences.  Sometimes that dialog works okay out here, but other times it is best kept private using the 'Start a Conversation' function.

Time to move on.

[locked]

[BRAKIE]

TA462

Packers#1:

 

Allow me to clarify what I meant by the rivet counter:

I was referencing the "troll" style of rivet counter who gives their opinion in a higher-than-thou, know-it-all way.  

 

Dude,  I'm on this site a couple times a day, every day.   I don't see people like what your describing here.   Those people seem to be brought up all the time though.  I think your back tracking, lol. 

Actually there was 2 or 3 not so long ago but,they seem to have move along to bigger and better things.

There was one jolly soul that was on my six like a MIG on a Tomcat every time I made a reply.

.I haven't seen him around on any forum for  the past 3-4 years.

 

[Packers#1]

modelmaker51

Another rivet counter still here! I only share my opinions if asked. It is a shame (but his perogative) that the OP is ready to settle for medeocrity. I was tought to be the best that I could be and if I was going to do something, do the best that I can often that requires counting rivets.

Allow me to clarify what I meant by the rivet counter:

I was referencing the "troll" style of rivet counter who gives their opinion in a higher-than-thou, know-it-all way. Critique is necessary to make better models, which we all must strive for. I myself have no problem with someone who is going to give their opinion to help make my model better. I think those folks are still here and still pushing us. I was reffering to, like I said, the snob who thinks their model railroad is THE WAY AND ONLY WAY!

ndbprr brought up an excellent point about who do you want answering your question? A well-informed individual does not a rivet-counter make. As a hobby, it is absolutely necessary to have those who know what they're talking about. It's just nice to not have them saying a model is crap even though someone worked hard on it.

Chuck on page two put what I'm trying to say perfectly. There are those that will suggest and others with the my way or the highway approach. I meant this as a commentary because I've run into some of these types on forums in the past, but it seems they've disappeared, at least where I go for online foruming.

Stein put it exactly how I'm trying to say it.

Twhite, i was wondering where in the HECK you've been! and ditto, Wayne is one of the guys who does it right; critique but not belittle.

I'd love to see that handlaying turnout post; I actually ahve wanted to scratchbuild, jsut dunno where to start.

 

[Geared Steam]

The "rivet counters" are around (thank god), but have moved on to other forums where things are taken a little more seriously. Nothing wrong with here nor there, but I know I grow tired of seeing bad pictures of some "weathering" that looks like they used come crayons and shoe polish and screwed up a perfectly nice locomotive.

I remember your first attempts at things Sawyer, your stuff was "okay" but could have been better. Instead of running away crying and hitting the "abuse" button you used much of the advice and started using weathering powders and prototype photos to make your rolling stock look much better. You have come a long way from those days, perhaps you should think a rivet counter instead of creating post bashing them.
Merry Christmas Sawyer

I'm far flung from being exactly prototypical, but I can recognize that a Big Boy that has been patched to "Montana Rail Link" pulling some Amtrak cars that was weathering by burying everything in the back yard for 6 months looks absolutely stupid. I don't care WHAT anyone thinks.

I know the saying, "Its your railroad, do what you want"  I agree 100%, just don't post a picture of the above example and expect everyone to give attaboys. Some will speak out and the risk of being flamed by the group and oh my goodness possibly a mod will step in and defend the helpless picture poster.

There are forums out there where the modeling is absolutely awesome, and instead of feeling intimidated and running away, I want to replicate that modeling by learning the skills and discipline it takes to get to that level. For those whom wish to remain mediocre, good for you, just don't flame them because they are better modelers, they are taking the hobby to a new level. What are you doing to the hobby?

A lot of people should just play with tinplate, why even dabble in scale models if your not even going to try?

I thank the rivet counters for good looking track, locomotives and rolling stock, and elevating the hobby. I hope to get to that level some day, unfortunately, it won't happen here.

 

 

 

[rrebell]

The truth is that on the real railroads, they make do, just when you say it is not prototypical, someone shows up with a pic. I have seen diesels rescued by steam, a steam, diesel, interurban lash-up and other strange things. Had one person scream that so and so railroad never had so and so engine and then a pic shows up (it was a real photo), wasn't even on the official roster!!!!!!!!

[BRAKIE]

TA462

BRAKIE:

V8Vega:

See also,  OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one!  and It's "MODEL" Railroading,  still current on this forum.  It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer.

Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for.

Dennis  San Fernando Valley CA.

 

Or perhaps envy?

I always suspect that goes on a lot in all hobbies.

Kinda like those Godzilla size and mega dollar layouts that fills a  30'x40' basement that's well above the average modeler's reach.

One should have obtainable goals  that's within his means instead of fantasy goals that is well above his means..

 

I disagree with you Brakie.   Obtainable goals in most hobbies are a possibility but only if people want to try to reach that goal.   Most people don't want to because of the fear of failure.  Failure is a huge deterent in all aspects of life for most people.  

Absolutely that's why they must have obtainable goals based on their skills not skills may never learn even after several attempts..I seen that happen many times over the years.

I know my limitations as far as what I can and can not do  and I can accept that where a lot of folks can't.

The most important skill is learning your limitations and fine turning the skills you have..

All I can say I am glad the hobby doesn't require all that many skills to be enjoyed.

[IRONROOSTER]

I think the folks interested in telling the rest of us what was acceptable real model railroading have mostly left. 

While the term "rivet counter" has had a pejorative connotation for as long as I can remember, the desire for accuracy in one's own modeling doesn't have that same connotation at least for me.  The level of accuracy each of us desires and is willing to strive for varies greatly between us and may vary for each of us over time. 

When I started in this hobby, I was thrilled to just get a layout built and trains running.  Over the years I have become more interested in more accurate modeling in some areas, but not others.  But what I really like is good looking models.  This is subjective, what I find appealing others may find awful.  Thus I am perfectly happy running my Gorre & Daphetid boxcar (Pacific Rail Shops 1937 AAR boxcar) on my layout because it has nice detail and looks good, others will feel that a fantasy railroad car has no place on a model railroad. And that's okay since I feel we each should do what pleases us.

Enjoy

Paul

[Hamltnblue]

BRAKIE

m horton:

I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler.

 

I agree..I perfer to call 'em advance modelers then" rivet counters"..

For those other types I have a unprintable name for 'em since they give good modelers a bad name..

 

They aren't necessarilly advanced modelers. Some are enthusiasts that know everything about particular loco's/rolling stock.  Kind of like the character in the movie Rainman

[markpierce]

Packers#1

So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING?

Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?

Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years

Packers#1

So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING?

Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?

Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years

[BobH13]

Fun comes in lots of flavors.  I like to replicate real life as best I can.  Others don't find this necessary and that's perfectly fine.  The problem arises when one group insists that their group is correct, only.  It's just not so..

Fun, reward, etc. should be the end game when all is said and done IMHO.

[BRAKIE]

V8Vega

See also,  OK, I know I'm going to get FLAMED over this one!  and It's "MODEL" Railroading,  still current on this forum.  It seems to me there are plenty of rivet counters on this forum. But then I'm a High Railer.

Hot Rod magazine though as a example has always featured millionare owned, professionally built cars beyond the reach of most car enthusist. The idea being to give you something to strive for.

Dennis  San Fernando Valley CA.

Or perhaps envy?

I always suspect that goes on a lot in all hobbies.

Kinda like those Godzilla size and mega dollar layouts that fills a  30'x40' basement that's well above the average modeler's reach.

One should have obtainable goals  that's within his means instead of fantasy goals that is well above his means..

[redram58]

One rivet,two rivets,three rivets.

[BRAKIE]

m horton

I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler.

I agree..I perfer to call 'em advance modelers then" rivet counters"..

For those other types I have a unprintable name for 'em since they give good modelers a bad name..

 

[m horton]

I'm sure your last statements are true, but then we meet those type of people in every facet of life including model railroaders.

I believe "rivet counters" is a bad name, there are many guys who study their prototype and want only true fidelity in all aspects of their modeling. A loud mouth boor may not even be a good modeler.

[twhite]

I consider myself a 'middle-of-the-road' modeler simply because my approach to the hobby is one of relaxation.  My profession is that of a classical musician, and believe me, when you've spent four hours at the piano trying to perfect eight measures of difficult music, I need something to just 'unwind' with, and that's my MR layout. 

With that said, I don't mind 'rivet counters' (a phrase that I think has become derogatoury lately), and we've got a few on the forum that I really, REALLY admire because they're willing to share their expertise with the rest of us in a helpful and constructive manner  (for instance: take a bow, Wayne and Jay, you've earned it, IMO!).  . 

I think it all boils down to the printed word--exactly HOW to write a helpful critique without it becoming either Pedantic or overly critical of the project at hand.   Some people can do it, others seem to have a communication problem as soon as they sit down at the computer keyboard.   On the few occasions when I've been asked to either comment or critique another modeler's efforts, I've had to really spend a lot of time considering and re-writing my thoughts as not to appear like some of the self-appointed Music Critics I'VE had to put up with in my career, LOL!   It's not easy, believe me.  And yes, I've been the recipient of some comments that I feel have been unnessecarily hurtful when the poster might have actually been trying to help.  It's a matter of communication of the printed word. 

The best advice on criticism I ever got was from the late, great pianist John Browning--Always, ALWAYS start out with the Positive--it gives you a solid foundation on how to help 're-construct' whatever you're working on. 

Makes sense to me.

Tom  

 

[Phoebe Vet]

Johnnny_reb

Hey Doc, how meny you got? I could use a few rivets.

Use to work the line at McDonald Douglas building 747 Sud doors, 737 Aoe doors and a few I can't remember the names of

Are they related to McDonnell Douglas, the company that makes those planes?

[BRAKIE]

m horton

I wonder who the op is referring to. There are some very good modelers that come in here and they definitely know there stuff(rivet counters). Maybe they're on different forums, ones that actually talk about modeling, not bemoaning the rtr,hobby is dying,cost of hobby,or giving attaboys to some poster's sub-par model over and over and over.

Actually there are advance modelers that strive on "attaboys!" but,seldom give one in return on anybodies model good,so/so or bad.Many do be moan  RTR models since these models are like the high detailed kits they love so well..

Of course I'm on 7 different forums and see all types of modelers so,I think I have a fairly good picture and the" good enoughers" still reign supreme.

I have been a member of several clubs and I have visited many clubs over the past few years and 90% of the modelers I've met has been average modelers and quite friendly..I met some advance modelers that was good guys..

All to sadly and on the plug ugly side I have met those that thought they was above all and  God's gift to model railroading..

I've met some I have wondered why they are even in the hobby because they continually find fault and nothing seems to please them.

 

[m horton]

I wonder who the op is referring to. There are some very good modelers that come in here and they definitely know there stuff(rivet counters). Maybe they're on different forums, ones that actually talk about modeling, not bemoaning the rtr,hobby is dying,cost of hobby,or giving attaboys to some poster's sub-par model over and over and over.

[The Ferroequinologist]

Packer#1:  I am a semi-rivet counter. I like the rolling stock, locos, buildings and operation to be as close as you can get it to the era you are modeling. I do not mix in 2011 boxcars with the 40 foot boxcar era, as an example. I am of the opinion this makes the layout better for myself and fellow modelers. At the same time I am not about to comment on or condemn others who do not feel the same, but we are watching! LOL.

[Medina1128]

chutton01

The answer to the OP is obvious.

Everything's been welded for years, no more rivets to count...

They'll be measuring the width of the welds.

[BRAKIE]

Packers#1

So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING?

Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?

Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years

I suspect they found a forum more to their liken-birds of a feather perhaps?

I also figure a lot of these guys fell on hard economic times and quit the hobby,many may have had their feeling hurt and moved on,maybe they didn't recieve a lot of "atta boy! comment or maybe they tired of the same old questions,same old gripes about the cost of the hobby,how RTR is killing the hobby,there's no real modelers,if you use RTR you're not a real modeler the reasons are many and some time moot..

I seen a lot of  advanced modelers leave several forums including Atlas forum so,IMHO things changes and folks change with those changes..

BTW..I also don't think there's all that much scratchbuilding these days.

[blownout cylinder]

jwhitten

 

fwright:

 

 

The same goes for track.  How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts?  Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do?

 

 

 

Uh, MEEEEEE!!!! (raising hand)

I would *love* to see you do a post about handlaying turnouts and track! I always enjoy seeing how other people do it. And IMO there aren't enough threads like that out there-- this site or others. And I know because I've checked. (At least not enough threads to make *me* happy anyway :-) I always snatch up books, articles, threads, etc. about laying track and turnouts. I'm very interested.

So, post away, Fred. I'm a guaranteed reader.

 

John

Me too!!!! It is always a treat to see how others do their hand laying of turnouts..as I just started redoing a couple of the things here...

[blownout cylinder]

tomikawaTT

 

steinjr:

 

 

tomikawaTT:

Two approaches to referencing prototype practices:

• "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.)  You might try that..."
• "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..."

The first says, "Here's a suggestion."  The second says, "My way or the highway."  The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.

 

 

 Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two?

 I  have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*. 

 Smile,
 Stein

 

I was thinking of a certain Australian driver who will remain nameless.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Wasn't he the one who had problems with his eyesight in the later years? I hope he is well...

I actually looked at some of his posts, but really did not see the 'highway or my way' line .... then again, maybe that was because I was not in the line of fire...

[jwhitten]

fwright

 

The same goes for track.  How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts?  Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do?

 

Uh, MEEEEEE!!!! (raising hand)

I would *love* to see you do a post about handlaying turnouts and track! I always enjoy seeing how other people do it. And IMO there aren't enough threads like that out there-- this site or others. And I know because I've checked. (At least not enough threads to make *me* happy anyway :-) I always snatch up books, articles, threads, etc. about laying track and turnouts. I'm very interested.

So, post away, Fred. I'm a guaranteed reader.

 

John

[jwhitten]

simon1966

I have to say that I think it is rather sad that the term "Rivet Counter" has taken on such a pejorative connotation.  IMO there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a person seeking tremendous fidelity and accuracy in their modelling.

 

Frankly, and with no offense intended toward anyone, I completely agree. But I have never heard the term "Rivet Counter" used with affection, other than in a poking-fun sort of way. As far as I am aware the term has always carried a pejorative connotation. But I will say, whenever I encounter a marvelously-crafted item, whether it be an individual model, a structure or an entire layout-- I am always incredibly impressed, deeply in awe, and totally inspired by the experience. Y'all continue to model to the Nth degree and I'll keep looking and going "Oh WOW! Look at that!!!"

 

John

[fwright]

Packers#1

So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum?

Trains.com was never the favorite hangout for the people you cite.  Many of them would rather spend their time modeling or doing prototype research than being told repeatedly they are wrong when they try to share their knowledge.  Others just prefer to share their knowledge and the fruits of their labors where the "anti-rc" sentiments aren't so strong.

Also, these forums are less conducive to posting photo tutorials and step-by-step "how I did this" articles than other sites.  Besides the sniping from the peanut gallery, the awkward extra step of uploading photos to a 3rd party site makes me think twice about posting my efforts (good, bad, or plain ugly) here.

 

Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?

As already stated, there are plenty of on-line sites that welcome documentation of scratch-building and kit-bashing efforts.  Yes, Kalmbach (and Atlas and Bachmann) do encourage an RTR lens to the hobby.  That's where their money comes from - selling or advertising RTR products.  Craftsman kits and scratch building take more time, and therefore sell less product.

In my case, I can pay $100 for a beautiful Blackstone D&RGW passenger coach.  It will run superbly out of the box. 

Or I can build the Labelle wood kit of the same prototype for about $40 all up, taking the better part of a month.  I have to order/buy and install the trucks and couplers separately.  I have to shape the roof and paint the body. If I want interior details or lighting, I provide my own (Blackstone comes with interior, lighting is extra).  I can easily customize the Labelle kit for my free-lance prototype through alterations, painting, and decaling.  The Labelle is capable of looking and running every bit as good/well as the Blackstone, but not necessarily in my hands.

Or I can build the MRGS plastic/wood/resin kit as another alternative.

I can buy a complete, good DCC system for $300 (with extra handheld throttle and computer interface).  Install the support wiring, resolve any glitches, and I'm good to operate.  Or I can build two equivalent DC hand held throttles for about $30 in parts each in a couple of weeks time.  Then I have to install the support wiring and trouble-shoot any glitches without manufacturer or forum support.  Which one gets published in MR?  Which thread would interest the readers of this forum?

The same goes for track.  How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts?  Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do?

I find the attitude that nothing significant in the hobby exists beyond plastic RTR, Model Railroader, and this forum more close-minded than that of the evil rivet counters.  To me, RTR, this forum and Model Railroader are just the beginning of a wonderful journey and world.  Frankly, I don't care whether the numbers of rivet counters and scratch builders are getting bigger or smaller.  That they bother to comment on my efforts, and point out where I can improve or be more realistic, is something I am very grateful for.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

[tomikawaTT]

steinjr

tomikawaTT:

Two approaches to referencing prototype practices:

• "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.)  You might try that..."
• "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..."

The first says, "Here's a suggestion."  The second says, "My way or the highway."  The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.

 

 Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two?

 I  have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*. 

 Smile,
 Stein

I was thinking of a certain Australian driver who will remain nameless.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Anonymous]

There may be quite a number of us who deem rivet counting as evil, albeit a necessary one. Without those among us, who count the rivets, our model locos still would look like this:

instead of this:

IMOH, we have to attribute today´s presence of well-detailed and excellently performing models to a large degree to the rivet counters, pushing the industry to improve the quality.

Above example shows Marklin´s class 44 of Deutsche Bundesbahn, the first model built in the 1950´s, the second picture showing today´s execution. Marklin, for many years, has shown a strong resistance to re-design and improve their models - only the loss of marketshare at the advent of new brands like Roco in the 1980´s facilitated their change of mind.

I am not praising the RC´s, but where would be without their strive towards even better models?

[steinjr]

tomikawaTT

Two approaches to referencing prototype practices:

• "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.)  You might try that..."
• "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..."

The first says, "Here's a suggestion."  The second says, "My way or the highway."  The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.

 Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two?

 I  have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*. 

 Smile,
 Stein