So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING?
Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?
Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
I think they are still here. I know some have been kicked off or asked to leave but I gather they have changed their name and now lurk around spying on all of us.
alco's forever!!!!! Majoring in HO scale Minorig in O scale:)
Meh...I've always held to the opinion that the so-called 'rivet counters' as expressed by the OP in this case were nothing more than the boors of old.
There are a few still around but no where near the amount that used to be here...
I can be something of a prototypist when it comes to my own layout...far be it from me to tell you how to run yours...1 of me is enough!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I'm still here and I'm still countin', too, although I have no interest in counting other people's rivets.
Wayne
At the risk of causing some offense, those who are hyper-particular about details have probably found that they are peeing into a windstorm on this forum. It isn't right, nor is it wrong...this forum is what most of its membership wants it to be, and that tends to be beginner to middlin', with some very kind and patient masters willing to pop in once in a while and attempt to encourage us to exceed our grasp once in a while.
"A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"
doctorwayne I'm still here and I'm still countin', too, although I have no interest in counting other people's rivets. Wayne
Great answer, Wayne.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
So who do you want to answer your specific question about a prototype? Do you want somebody who has attempted to learn as much as he can or somebody taking a guess?
The answer to the OP is obvious.
Everything's been welded for years, no more rivets to count...
Hey Doc, how meny you got? I could use a few rivets.
Use to work the line at McDonald Douglas building 747 Sud doors, 737 Aoe doors and a few I can't remember the names of
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
That is the thing. If I want an answer that is really well documented that is who I would expect the answer from..someone who knows their stuff, someone who has investigated the subject matter to the fullest and knows how to communicate this information well. But with a lot getting tired of being bounced on for perceived issues of communication we are going to see even less of them...
I wish some of them were not beaten into the ground for things that some deem troublesome..it may just be that they do feel somewhat defensive anymore...
Rivet counters are a necessary part of the hobby. While they may seem boring or snobish to the average modeler, they are probably responsible for the quality and realism we see in many of today's offerings. Otherwise we'd have trains similar to tin plate.
Springfield PA
chutton01 The answer to the OP is obvious. Everything's been welded for years, no more rivets to count...
This thread is riveting.
I'm welded to my seat!
John
Another rivet counter still here! I only share my opinions if asked. It is a shame (but his perogative) that the OP is ready to settle for medeocrity. I was tought to be the best that I could be and if I was going to do something, do the best that I can often that requires counting rivets.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
I have to say that I think it is rather sad that the term "Rivet Counter" has taken on such a pejorative connotation. IMO there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a person seeking tremendous fidelity and accuracy in their modelling.
The issue is not so much that a person seeks to attain this level of perfection, but when a person uses their knowledge to put another down. Frankly you don't have to be a "Rivet counter" to do that. In fact one might say that this very thread aims to belittle modellers that are trying to attain spectacular levels of accuracy.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Packers#1 Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place?
Sawyer,
While RTR products may "lessen" the amount of scratch-building done these days, I don't see that it will ever take the "prototypical aspect" out of MRRing. A number of folks enjoy this aspect of the hobby - including myself - as not everything that was ever made or constructed for the RRs is available on the market.
Building a structure from scratch or from a kit bash brings a high level of satisfaction and accomplishment. You could liken it to the music or literary world. Why are music and books still being written today since there are so many genres, pieces, and songs written up to this point? Because humans like and enjoy being creative. They write, they build, they invent because they were created with that desire; albeit some show this trait more than others.
While the "know-it-all" aspect" of prototypical modeling can have its negative side-effects, prototypical modeling spurs some folks to create things that they might not otherwise consider. And, as it has been pointed out before, it's the prototype modelers and "rivet counters" that bring us the wonderful RTR models that we see beautifully displayed in our LHSes.
Having said all that, I ultimately see this thread going down the same via that some of the other locked threads from today have gone because it's just a spin off of the same conversation. Aren't there any other topics worth musing over - i.e. ones leading to productive discussion rather than kvetching and type-casting?
selector At the risk of causing some offense............................,
At the risk of causing some offense............................,
did you not just lock the "someone going to flame me now" thread? And now we're going to have multiple pages of the same stuff?
I personally don't see the problem with anyone who tries to excel in some aspect of this hobby, be it DCC decoder installation, DC return loop wiring methods, ability to identify model locomotive air horns in a single glance, or even counting rivets on a boxcar. If I run into someone like that, and the topic interests me, I'll listen in the hopes of learning something. If I'm not interested I'll walk away.
What I fail to understand is why folks take offence at anyone who suggests that something could be made, or done, better. Unless they have their private parts nailed to the floor, they can choose to walk away. Why continually carp about it here?
Two approaches to referencing prototype practices:
The first says, "Here's a suggestion." The second says, "My way or the highway." The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.
Like Wayne, I am very critical when counting my own rivets. However, I'd rather offer chocolate, not be abrasive. As for being around, check my post count and stand assured that I don't plan to leave for anywhere.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
All the grumbled crumugeonly old faa-rt rivet counters I had encountered in my younger days are by now likely past on by now. The simple fact is that this hobby really isn't getting younger in the majority of its practitioners. I suspect that's one prime reason your seeing less of the dreaded RCs.
Have fun with your trains
tomikawaTT Two approaches to referencing prototype practices: "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.) You might try that..." "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..." The first says, "Here's a suggestion." The second says, "My way or the highway." The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.
Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two?
I have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*.
Smile, Stein
There may be quite a number of us who deem rivet counting as evil, albeit a necessary one. Without those among us, who count the rivets, our model locos still would look like this:
instead of this:
IMOH, we have to attribute today´s presence of well-detailed and excellently performing models to a large degree to the rivet counters, pushing the industry to improve the quality.
Above example shows Marklin´s class 44 of Deutsche Bundesbahn, the first model built in the 1950´s, the second picture showing today´s execution. Marklin, for many years, has shown a strong resistance to re-design and improve their models - only the loss of marketshare at the advent of new brands like Roco in the 1980´s facilitated their change of mind.
I am not praising the RC´s, but where would be without their strive towards even better models?
steinjr tomikawaTT: Two approaches to referencing prototype practices: "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.) You might try that..." "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..." The first says, "Here's a suggestion." The second says, "My way or the highway." The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum. Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two? I have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*. Smile, Stein
tomikawaTT: Two approaches to referencing prototype practices: "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.) You might try that..." "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..." The first says, "Here's a suggestion." The second says, "My way or the highway." The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum.
I was thinking of a certain Australian driver who will remain nameless.
Packers#1 So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum?
So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum?
Trains.com was never the favorite hangout for the people you cite. Many of them would rather spend their time modeling or doing prototype research than being told repeatedly they are wrong when they try to share their knowledge. Others just prefer to share their knowledge and the fruits of their labors where the "anti-rc" sentiments aren't so strong.
Also, these forums are less conducive to posting photo tutorials and step-by-step "how I did this" articles than other sites. Besides the sniping from the peanut gallery, the awkward extra step of uploading photos to a 3rd party site makes me think twice about posting my efforts (good, bad, or plain ugly) here.
As already stated, there are plenty of on-line sites that welcome documentation of scratch-building and kit-bashing efforts. Yes, Kalmbach (and Atlas and Bachmann) do encourage an RTR lens to the hobby. That's where their money comes from - selling or advertising RTR products. Craftsman kits and scratch building take more time, and therefore sell less product.
In my case, I can pay $100 for a beautiful Blackstone D&RGW passenger coach. It will run superbly out of the box.
Or I can build the Labelle wood kit of the same prototype for about $40 all up, taking the better part of a month. I have to order/buy and install the trucks and couplers separately. I have to shape the roof and paint the body. If I want interior details or lighting, I provide my own (Blackstone comes with interior, lighting is extra). I can easily customize the Labelle kit for my free-lance prototype through alterations, painting, and decaling. The Labelle is capable of looking and running every bit as good/well as the Blackstone, but not necessarily in my hands.
Or I can build the MRGS plastic/wood/resin kit as another alternative.
I can buy a complete, good DCC system for $300 (with extra handheld throttle and computer interface). Install the support wiring, resolve any glitches, and I'm good to operate. Or I can build two equivalent DC hand held throttles for about $30 in parts each in a couple of weeks time. Then I have to install the support wiring and trouble-shoot any glitches without manufacturer or forum support. Which one gets published in MR? Which thread would interest the readers of this forum?
The same goes for track. How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts? Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do?
I find the attitude that nothing significant in the hobby exists beyond plastic RTR, Model Railroader, and this forum more close-minded than that of the evil rivet counters. To me, RTR, this forum and Model Railroader are just the beginning of a wonderful journey and world. Frankly, I don't care whether the numbers of rivet counters and scratch builders are getting bigger or smaller. That they bother to comment on my efforts, and point out where I can improve or be more realistic, is something I am very grateful for.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
simon1966 I have to say that I think it is rather sad that the term "Rivet Counter" has taken on such a pejorative connotation. IMO there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a person seeking tremendous fidelity and accuracy in their modelling.
Frankly, and with no offense intended toward anyone, I completely agree. But I have never heard the term "Rivet Counter" used with affection, other than in a poking-fun sort of way. As far as I am aware the term has always carried a pejorative connotation. But I will say, whenever I encounter a marvelously-crafted item, whether it be an individual model, a structure or an entire layout-- I am always incredibly impressed, deeply in awe, and totally inspired by the experience. Y'all continue to model to the Nth degree and I'll keep looking and going "Oh WOW! Look at that!!!"
fwright The same goes for track. How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts? Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do?
Uh, MEEEEEE!!!! (raising hand)
I would *love* to see you do a post about handlaying turnouts and track! I always enjoy seeing how other people do it. And IMO there aren't enough threads like that out there-- this site or others. And I know because I've checked. (At least not enough threads to make *me* happy anyway :-) I always snatch up books, articles, threads, etc. about laying track and turnouts. I'm very interested.
So, post away, Fred. I'm a guaranteed reader.
tomikawaTT steinjr: tomikawaTT: Two approaches to referencing prototype practices: "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.) You might try that..." "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..." The first says, "Here's a suggestion." The second says, "My way or the highway." The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum. Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two? I have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*. Smile, Stein I was thinking of a certain Australian driver who will remain nameless. Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
steinjr: tomikawaTT: Two approaches to referencing prototype practices: "The (railroad) handled that by (specific parameter or detail, large or small.) You might try that..." "That is the way (railroad) did it, and if you don't do EXACTLY the same J. Lucifer Satan has a special spot right by the hearth for you to occupy for all eternity..." The first says, "Here's a suggestion." The second says, "My way or the highway." The two are as different as chocolate and carborundum. Seen any examples of the last kind around here during the last year or two? I have seen people offering suggestions, with variable amounts of diplomacy (including close to none), but I can't say I have noticed any obvious cases of anyone declaring that it is "my way or the highway*. Smile, Stein
Wasn't he the one who had problems with his eyesight in the later years? I hope he is well...
I actually looked at some of his posts, but really did not see the 'highway or my way' line .... then again, maybe that was because I was not in the line of fire...
jwhitten fwright: The same goes for track. How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts? Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do? Uh, MEEEEEE!!!! (raising hand) I would *love* to see you do a post about handlaying turnouts and track! I always enjoy seeing how other people do it. And IMO there aren't enough threads like that out there-- this site or others. And I know because I've checked. (At least not enough threads to make *me* happy anyway :-) I always snatch up books, articles, threads, etc. about laying track and turnouts. I'm very interested. So, post away, Fred. I'm a guaranteed reader. John
fwright: The same goes for track. How many on this forum would read a photo thread of how I hand lay my turnouts? Why would I post here, when it's easier to post on other forums, and I get feedback based on actual experience in doing what I am trying to do?
Me too!!!! It is always a treat to see how others do their hand laying of turnouts..as I just started redoing a couple of the things here...
Packers#1 So I've noticed more and more recently that I'm seeing less and less of the rivet counters online. You know those guys...the crazy, 1000% prototypical, I know better than you period crowd. Did they all get kicked off or go form their own forum? Or is it a sign that our hobby is *gasp* SHIFTING? Think about it. the advent of RTR structures combined with bulletproof RTR track and easy-to-use DCC systems has perhaps lessened the scratchbuilding side of this hobby and taken the whole prototypical aspect out of it, so now rivet counters have no place? Does this make any sense? I've just noticed this over the past few years
I suspect they found a forum more to their liken-birds of a feather perhaps?
I also figure a lot of these guys fell on hard economic times and quit the hobby,many may have had their feeling hurt and moved on,maybe they didn't recieve a lot of "atta boy! comment or maybe they tired of the same old questions,same old gripes about the cost of the hobby,how RTR is killing the hobby,there's no real modelers,if you use RTR you're not a real modeler the reasons are many and some time moot..
I seen a lot of advanced modelers leave several forums including Atlas forum so,IMHO things changes and folks change with those changes..
BTW..I also don't think there's all that much scratchbuilding these days.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
They'll be measuring the width of the welds.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Packer#1: I am a semi-rivet counter. I like the rolling stock, locos, buildings and operation to be as close as you can get it to the era you are modeling. I do not mix in 2011 boxcars with the 40 foot boxcar era, as an example. I am of the opinion this makes the layout better for myself and fellow modelers. At the same time I am not about to comment on or condemn others who do not feel the same, but we are watching! LOL.
The Ferroequinologist layoutconcepts@yahoo.com eBay store: Backshop Train & China Store Facebook: Model Trains, Train Sets, Buildings & Layout Concepts
I wonder who the op is referring to. There are some very good modelers that come in here and they definitely know there stuff(rivet counters). Maybe they're on different forums, ones that actually talk about modeling, not bemoaning the rtr,hobby is dying,cost of hobby,or giving attaboys to some poster's sub-par model over and over and over.