Well, the OP certainly set off a real firestorm with this question didn't he? He could have asked the same question except substituted "DCC vs DC" in place of kit or RTR and gotten pretty much the same response. Steam vs Diesel would probably also have gotten the same result.
Personally I find it all rather amusing as I have all sorts of freight and passenger equipment, RTR, kit built, and scratch built. Does that make me a better model railroader? A "superior" model railroader? No......maybe a more skilled model railroader than some but I've been at this for over 50 years. Besides, what difference does it make?
I've seen layouts where "everything" was bought RTR and the owner was just as proud and happy as the guy who scratchbuilt everything on his layout. Is there a difference, certainly!!! Does it make one a better modeler than the other? Perhaps......does it make one a better model railroader than the other? Not especially if they are both as enthusiastic about their hobby.
So why do people have this desire to feel "superior" about what they are doing versus what someone else is doing? The answer to that goes way beyond what we have the resourses to answer here.
We all come together "because" we are model railroaders then we all break off into little sub groups to designate what type of model railroader we are.
As I stated above, I find it all rather amusing that the very thing that brings us all together ends up being exactly what seperates us in the end.
Is there not a bit of irony here?
Mark
WGAS
andrechapelon TA462: People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again. Give it up, dude, they're on a roll, just like John Belushi in "Animal House". It's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg. Sooner or later (but more likely sooner). the argument will devolve into one about who's the real egg connoisseur, the one who keeps chickens and gets his eggs directly from them, or the guy who buys his eggs at the supermarket. Eventually, the guy who claims to know everything about the history of poultry comes along and we already know where that road leads. Arguments about free range chickens vs. the alternative, whether or not being a vegan is superior to being an ovolactovegetarian. Andre
TA462: People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again.
People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again.
Give it up, dude, they're on a roll, just like John Belushi in "Animal House".
It's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg. Sooner or later (but more likely sooner). the argument will devolve into one about who's the real egg connoisseur, the one who keeps chickens and gets his eggs directly from them, or the guy who buys his eggs at the supermarket.
Eventually, the guy who claims to know everything about the history of poultry comes along and we already know where that road leads. Arguments about free range chickens vs. the alternative, whether or not being a vegan is superior to being an ovolactovegetarian.
Andre
I almost lost my coffee up mine nose from this one!!
I do think, though, that the idea of aesthetics being another reason for going RTR is a stretch there..just a little....
Now, if it is about infirmities...oh sure then RTR might be a good idea...although there are times when a little bit of modelling is a good form of occupational therapy...and I work in the field....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Forty Niner Well, the OP certainly set off a real firestorm with this question didn't he? He could have asked the same question except substituted "DCC vs DC" in place of kit or RTR and gotten pretty much the same response. Steam vs Diesel would probably also have gotten the same result. Personally I find it all rather amusing as I have all sorts of freight and passenger equipment, RTR, kit built, and scratch built. Does that make me a better model railroader? A "superior" model railroader? No......maybe a more skilled model railroader than some but I've been at this for over 50 years. Besides, what difference does it make? I've seen layouts where "everything" was bought RTR and the owner was just as proud and happy as the guy who scratchbuilt everything on his layout. Is there a difference, certainly!!! Does it make one a better modeler than the other? Perhaps......does it make one a better model railroader than the other? Not especially if they are both as enthusiastic about their hobby. So why do people have this desire to feel "superior" about what they are doing versus what someone else is doing? The answer to that goes way beyond what we have the resourses to answer here. We all come together "because" we are model railroaders then we all break off into little sub groups to designate what type of model railroader we are. As I stated above, I find it all rather amusing that the very thing that brings us all together ends up being exactly what seperates us in the end. Is there not a bit of irony here? Mark WGAS
OH! BRAVO!!! Bravo!!! BRA-VO!!!
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Having been in HO since late 1950's I have seen it all and done it all and have enjoyed every minute I have been in the hobby. That said, I built my first HO layout in 1958 or 59, don't remember which and have stayed with HO ever since. (I do have a garden railroad in the backyard). I imagine I have built cars from every kit line produced give or take a few, I have scratchbuilt (for my MMR) and I have bought RTR. Today, at my age I am still an active model railroader, but I do admit (without any shame) that I have invested heavily in the Tangent, ExactRail and IM RTR models. Partly because of arthritis and eye sight not the best, and partly because I wanted good quality rolling stock on my railroad and no kits I know of anymore (with a few minor exceptions) can match the RTR now available. I do still weather, etc. but not much bulding these days. And I am not a bit ashamed. This is a hobby to be enjoyed by each in their own way, and so I don't care what Tom, Dick or Harry like or prefer, it is what I prefer.
So you good folk can argue about what you want, don't want, will do, won't do, and you can make remarks about the ones who don't follow your druthers, and I have seen some pretty non sensitive comments lately in the forums, but I will keep on doing what I do. If you are invited to visit, or ask to visit and then don't like what you see or your senses are offended, then the door up to the garage and out to the driveway is easy to find. If I don't do things the way you do when you visit and you want to point out your vast superiority in the hobby to mine, you might even get a special invitation to leave.
Otherwise how I enjoy the hobby, how I go about it, how I do it is my choice. Comments are always welcome that can open a new door for me, otherwise the door is open for your departure.
Bob
Bob wrote:This is a hobby to be enjoyed by each in their own way, and so I don't care what Tom, Dick or Harry like or prefer, it is what I prefer.
------------------------------
Bob,Well said..That pretty well sums it up..We all have different approaches and favorite facets in the hobby we pursue.
I believe all know I favor operation over building..Over the eons I been in this hobby I pretty well march to my own drum and bugle corp except for a short period of lunacy when I found out I was caught in a trap of modeling to please others and not what I wanted the hobby to be for me..
A scary thought for me..If I had to build BB car and locomotive kits I'm not sure I would still be in the hobby because with the limited use of my right hand simple things can become quite the chore so,RTR help me remain in the hobby to a certain degree.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hmmm. That's funny. I figured if anyone would get a kick out of it, it would be you.
I was right about the poultry "expert" showing up, wasn't I?
As for aesthetics, at least when it comes to Athearn BB vs Ready-to-Roll, the paint and graphics are waaaay better with the latter. The real issue here is money more than kits since Athearn BB were kits only if you stretch the definition almost to the breaking point. My wife bought a new frying pan recently. It came as a "kit" since I had to attach the handle to the pan body and it didn't take a significantly shorter time to assemble than a BB "kit".
andrechapelon The real issue here is money more than kits since Athearn BB were kits only if you stretch the definition almost to the breaking point. My wife bought a new frying pan recently. It came as a "kit" since I had to attach the handle to the pan body and it didn't take a significantly shorter time to assemble than a BB "kit". Andre
The real issue here is money more than kits since Athearn BB were kits only if you stretch the definition almost to the breaking point. My wife bought a new frying pan recently. It came as a "kit" since I had to attach the handle to the pan body and it didn't take a significantly shorter time to assemble than a BB "kit".
Your comparison of this thread to an argument over eggs was hilarious.....but.....
sounds like your trying to be the guy who likes to define what a "real egg" is for the rest of us.....
Don't you know that "Egg Beaters", the stuff that comes ready to pour in the carton, is better than a real egg anyway?
- Douglas
I don´t know whether to be amused or whether I should cry out loud.
Why do we have to discuss things like this over and over again? These discussions lead to nowhere, other than some heated arguments.
This hobby is supposed to be fun, and I don´t give a (beep, expletive, deleted), whether it comes Ready to Repair, in kit-form or scratchbuilt.
IF time - according to the original poster - is not an issue, kits you build would have to be the logical answer.
I haven't read every page of replies as just this last page pretty much sums up what I'm sure all the other responses are. The OP obviously isn't concerned about the time because he's apparently in the hobby for the long haul. If that's the case, the kits will give him hours and hours of enjoyment building anything and everything for his layout. If he were to concentrate on nothing but RTR items, the layout would be completed in a MUCH shorter time frame and the engine and freight car fleet would be complete as fast as you could write the checks - but then what ? The goal of this hobby isn't to plant that red flag and claim mission complete. It's a forever pursuit of something to do.
The RTR items are great for those who don't have much free time, yet still want to be able to accomplish a decent layout in a reasonable amount of time. For those who do have a lot of time on their hands, the kits are a great way to while away many many hours of time at the workbench or layout.
The end result may or may not be the same - but I don't think that's the important factor here. Model railroading (with a few exceptions) is not a job, and it's not being done to please someone else. It's a way for us to get away from jobs and expectations.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I love the Blackstone RTR HOn3 equipment.
For the price I couldn't build anything equivalent.
-G-
Nope. That's the job of the self proclaimed poultry expert I mentioned earlier.
Since I've eaten both, I'd have to say the difference between an actual egg and Egg Beaters is analogous to the difference between steaks from Omaha Steaks and the styrofoam container in which they ship the steaks, although I have to admit that adding the dry ice to the styrofoam does add a tad to the flavor.
To those lamenting kits. I believe the market will self correct. As the surplus of BB kits, etc., dry up there will always be a market for cottage manufacturers to make a profit with kits. You probably won't see the large manufacturers return to kits but there will always be more than a few smaller industries producing kits. As far as the RTR v. kits, well if you have lots of disposable income then RTR probably appeals to you. I think it is riduculous to pay 29 -50 dollars for a freight car but that's just me. I think it would look pretty stupid for my I-1 decapod to be pulling five hoppers. But at least I can say they are the most detailed five RTR hoppers on the market at that second. Honestly you heard a lot a valid arguements for both options but the choice is up to you.
Chris
PRR_in_AZ To those lamenting kits. I believe the market will self correct. As the surplus of BB kits, etc., dry up there will always be a market for cottage manufacturers to make a profit with kits. You probably won't see the large manufacturers return to kits but there will always be more than a few smaller industries producing kits. As far as the RTR v. kits, well if you have lots of disposable income then RTR probably appeals to you. I think it is riduculous to pay 29 -50 dollars for a freight car but that's just me. I think it would look pretty stupid for my I-1 decapod to be pulling five hoppers. But at least I can say they are the most detailed five RTR hoppers on the market at that second. Honestly you heard a lot a valid arguements for both options but the choice is up to you. Chris
Kits abound.
http://www.wrighttrak.com/, http://www.traincat2.com/, http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/ , http://www.unionstationproducts.com/ , http://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/hocars.htm , http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/HOFreight.HTM , http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/hokit.htm , https://www.labellemodels.com/scale-c-21.html, http://trainstationproducts.com/productlist.html
They just ain't cheap.
Or shake the box scewdriver assembly that are as close to ready-to-run without actually being ready to run.
This isn't always true. For instance, I model PRR, and a bowser H-21 Hopper that is RTR runs about $25.00 or so. That exact same hopper comes available in kit form for about 12.95. No difference in detail, but big difference in price. These kits pretty much fall together and requires no skill and about 1-2 hours of assembly. About the most involved thing is painting the metal weights freight car color that install under the slope sheet. That's it. To get twice as many cars for some assembly line kit building is pretty much a no brainer.
For instance, I model PRR, and a bowser H-21 Hopper that is RTR runs about $25.00 or so. That exact same hopper comes available in kit form for about 12.95. No difference in detail, but big difference in price. These kits pretty much fall together and requires no skill and about 1-2 hours of assembly.
So let me understand this. The desiderata are "cheap and requires no skill". The only way that RTR doesn't qualify is that it's not cheap. It certainly satisfies the "no skill" part of the equation. You can get the Bowser kit, so what's the big problem? Accurail is still making kits in the $12-20 range http://www.accurail.com/accurail/. So why all the wearing of hair shirts?
Apparently, the demise of Athearn BB is equated to the demise of all shake-the-box "kits".
I believe we can correctly assume that if ready-to-run were priced at the same price as kits that are no longer produced that everybody would be happy and no one (except he who must not be named) would be lamenting the loss of kits.
Naw, if Athearn Ready-To-Roll were priced the same as the old BB kits, someone would start complaining that Athearn should start making BB again, but charging less than before.
It's about money, not the availability of kits.
Right, RTR is not cheap. You also said that kits are not cheap. or at least that's how I read your post. Correct, some craftsman type kits are definitely not cheap or even simple to assemble. What I'm saying is that not all kits fall into this category and that if you want to put forth a little labor, (no skill involved if you are capable of gluing parts that have mounting pins and pre-drilled holes), you can have a freight car that is exactly the same as the RTR for about half price. That's all.
Apparently my point got lost. The two desired criteria are "cheap and no skills involved" from what I can see. RTR certainly involves no skills. One is then left with with what seems to be the most important criterion of all: CHEAP. If RTR were priced lower, then it could conceivably even satisfy that demand.
So again, it's not about kits, it's about price relative to RTR. Even the kits in the $12-20 range are considerably more expensive than the old Athearn BB "kits", so by that criterion, they're expensive in comparison. That's why I included them in the "not cheap" category.
Apparently the irony of "cheap and no skills involved" in this hobby is totally lost. Nobody would be moaning about the loss of "kits" if RTR were priced lower. So I guess the whole point is to acquire as many locos and pieces of rolling stock as one can as cheaply as possible without having to acquire any skills.
OK. Now I understand.
I don't know about that, I've bought a bunch of Athearn Genesis undecorated kits for anywhere between 12 and 20 bucks. Add in the cost of paint and decals and your right in line with RTR cars.
The bowser kits I was referring to earlier are painted and decaled (printed). I guess if you have to buy the undec kits in order to get the car you want that is not available in RTR then you have a point.
Andre, I still don't understand your logic so I think we should agree to disagree and drop this.
TA462 PRR_in_AZ: So let me understand this. The desiderata are "cheap and requires no skill". The only way that RTR doesn't qualify is that it's not cheap. It certainly satisfies the "no skill" part of the equation. You can get the Bowser kit, so what's the big problem? Accurail is still making kits in the $12-20 range http://www.accurail.com/accurail/. So why all the wearing of hair shirts? Right, RTR is not cheap. You also said that kits are not cheap. or at least that's how I read your post. Correct, some craftsman type kits are definitely not cheap or even simple to assemble. What I'm saying is that not all kits fall into this category and that if you want to put forth a little labor, (no skill involved if you are capable of gluing parts that have mounting pins and pre-drilled holes), you can have a freight car that is exactly the same as the RTR for about half price. That's all. Chris I don't know about that, I've bought a bunch of Athearn Genesis undecorated kits for anywhere between 12 and 20 bucks. Add in the cost of paint and decals and your right in line with RTR cars.
PRR_in_AZ: So let me understand this. The desiderata are "cheap and requires no skill". The only way that RTR doesn't qualify is that it's not cheap. It certainly satisfies the "no skill" part of the equation. You can get the Bowser kit, so what's the big problem? Accurail is still making kits in the $12-20 range http://www.accurail.com/accurail/. So why all the wearing of hair shirts? Right, RTR is not cheap. You also said that kits are not cheap. or at least that's how I read your post. Correct, some craftsman type kits are definitely not cheap or even simple to assemble. What I'm saying is that not all kits fall into this category and that if you want to put forth a little labor, (no skill involved if you are capable of gluing parts that have mounting pins and pre-drilled holes), you can have a freight car that is exactly the same as the RTR for about half price. That's all. Chris
Which is true..but only up to a point.
If you are modelling a tank car with a decal set either made by you or specialty made for a company that is not on a RTR company order sheet then...
In answer to the original question, slipping past all the other agenda, what is better is the equipment or buldings that you are able to build. If you are a scratchbuilder by nature, scratchbuilt will probably look better. If you are not, they won't look worth anything. Some are much better at taking a commercial kit and building it, weathering it, and placing it in a sceniced area that compliments the building. Most of the answers I read in this thread reflect the talents/abilities of the poster of the message. If I am a scratchbuilder, I might try to convince you that scratchbuilding is the only way, but not if that isn't your particular talent.
Instead of asking everyone else (who will be biased one way or the other in their response), try some RTR and some kits to see what you can do. Your layout will be better for it.
I guess I would prefer to answer the question worded a bit differently: "Which is [more rewarding]? RTR or kits you build"?
Kits...Hands down!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
> wonders if the original poster has even bothered to come back to read his thread <
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam > wonders if the original poster has even bothered to come back to read his thread <
I doubt it. The OP's thread asked a which is better question, but I think his intended question was more along the lines of: since inexpensive kits (read Athearn BB) are not readily available in a LHS, how is a modeler on a tight budget to enter this "inexpensive" () hobby. So instead of opening one can of worms, he opened two. I suppose he really didn't care.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
tstage I guess I would prefer to answer the question worded a bit differently: "Which is [more rewarding]? RTR or kits you build"? Kits...Hands down! Tom
RTR is much more rewarding by far. I look at the layout and see that dozens of chinese built it for a dollar an hour. It's like the real railroad back in the day. You get to run your empire and sub out the menial labor to the chinese.
I still can't get a better price on laying track though.
Springfield PA
In the words of Carl Sandburg....
"Paper is two kinds, to write on, to wrap with, If you like to write, you write, If you like to wrap, you wrap. Some papers like writers, some like wrappers. Are you a writer or a wrapper?"
It's like that with RTR and Kits.....
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Me thinks someone let loose a Wildebeest in amongst a crocpit....
I wonder how many Chinese read these posts?
The best is, what ever you do on your RR, let it be RTR kit bash, scratch build, old used or new. Remember it's your layout.If you like it; well that would be the best.
Sam
The best looking would depend a lot on how good you can model to a large extent. And how well the RTR matches the prototype.
My preference is for kits, for everything. My 12 year old son is building his first loco kit.
BTW, the kids seem to prefer kits too. Much like Boy Scout pinewood derby kits, etc--boys like to build.
Richard
Tom,I suspect that depends on who you ask and their past modeling experience..I build hundreds of BB and MDC kits over the years and quite frankly the last few I bought I dreaded building-I still have 3 unbuilt BB undecorated kits.
I won't miss the kits nor will I shed any tears...The fiddling you have to do to get the correct coupler height,the warp frames,MDC's undecorated steps attached to the frame,their warp frame etc..I built BB locomotive kits,Hobbytown kits,Main Line Models kits,Penn-Line locomotives just to name a few.
Now I welcome RTR cars and locomotives for many reasons.