Having been in HO since late 1950's I have seen it all and done it all and have enjoyed every minute I have been in the hobby. That said, I built my first HO layout in 1958 or 59, don't remember which and have stayed with HO ever since. (I do have a garden railroad in the backyard). I imagine I have built cars from every kit line produced give or take a few, I have scratchbuilt (for my MMR) and I have bought RTR. Today, at my age I am still an active model railroader, but I do admit (without any shame) that I have invested heavily in the Tangent, ExactRail and IM RTR models. Partly because of arthritis and eye sight not the best, and partly because I wanted good quality rolling stock on my railroad and no kits I know of anymore (with a few minor exceptions) can match the RTR now available. I do still weather, etc. but not much bulding these days. And I am not a bit ashamed. This is a hobby to be enjoyed by each in their own way, and so I don't care what Tom, Dick or Harry like or prefer, it is what I prefer.
So you good folk can argue about what you want, don't want, will do, won't do, and you can make remarks about the ones who don't follow your druthers, and I have seen some pretty non sensitive comments lately in the forums, but I will keep on doing what I do. If you are invited to visit, or ask to visit and then don't like what you see or your senses are offended, then the door up to the garage and out to the driveway is easy to find. If I don't do things the way you do when you visit and you want to point out your vast superiority in the hobby to mine, you might even get a special invitation to leave.
Otherwise how I enjoy the hobby, how I go about it, how I do it is my choice. Comments are always welcome that can open a new door for me, otherwise the door is open for your departure.
Bob
Forty Niner Well, the OP certainly set off a real firestorm with this question didn't he? He could have asked the same question except substituted "DCC vs DC" in place of kit or RTR and gotten pretty much the same response. Steam vs Diesel would probably also have gotten the same result. Personally I find it all rather amusing as I have all sorts of freight and passenger equipment, RTR, kit built, and scratch built. Does that make me a better model railroader? A "superior" model railroader? No......maybe a more skilled model railroader than some but I've been at this for over 50 years. Besides, what difference does it make? I've seen layouts where "everything" was bought RTR and the owner was just as proud and happy as the guy who scratchbuilt everything on his layout. Is there a difference, certainly!!! Does it make one a better modeler than the other? Perhaps......does it make one a better model railroader than the other? Not especially if they are both as enthusiastic about their hobby. So why do people have this desire to feel "superior" about what they are doing versus what someone else is doing? The answer to that goes way beyond what we have the resourses to answer here. We all come together "because" we are model railroaders then we all break off into little sub groups to designate what type of model railroader we are. As I stated above, I find it all rather amusing that the very thing that brings us all together ends up being exactly what seperates us in the end. Is there not a bit of irony here? Mark WGAS
Well, the OP certainly set off a real firestorm with this question didn't he? He could have asked the same question except substituted "DCC vs DC" in place of kit or RTR and gotten pretty much the same response. Steam vs Diesel would probably also have gotten the same result.
Personally I find it all rather amusing as I have all sorts of freight and passenger equipment, RTR, kit built, and scratch built. Does that make me a better model railroader? A "superior" model railroader? No......maybe a more skilled model railroader than some but I've been at this for over 50 years. Besides, what difference does it make?
I've seen layouts where "everything" was bought RTR and the owner was just as proud and happy as the guy who scratchbuilt everything on his layout. Is there a difference, certainly!!! Does it make one a better modeler than the other? Perhaps......does it make one a better model railroader than the other? Not especially if they are both as enthusiastic about their hobby.
So why do people have this desire to feel "superior" about what they are doing versus what someone else is doing? The answer to that goes way beyond what we have the resourses to answer here.
We all come together "because" we are model railroaders then we all break off into little sub groups to designate what type of model railroader we are.
As I stated above, I find it all rather amusing that the very thing that brings us all together ends up being exactly what seperates us in the end.
Is there not a bit of irony here?
Mark
WGAS
OH! BRAVO!!! Bravo!!! BRA-VO!!!
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
andrechapelon TA462: People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again. Give it up, dude, they're on a roll, just like John Belushi in "Animal House". It's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg. Sooner or later (but more likely sooner). the argument will devolve into one about who's the real egg connoisseur, the one who keeps chickens and gets his eggs directly from them, or the guy who buys his eggs at the supermarket. Eventually, the guy who claims to know everything about the history of poultry comes along and we already know where that road leads. Arguments about free range chickens vs. the alternative, whether or not being a vegan is superior to being an ovolactovegetarian. Andre
TA462: People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again.
People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again.
Give it up, dude, they're on a roll, just like John Belushi in "Animal House".
It's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg. Sooner or later (but more likely sooner). the argument will devolve into one about who's the real egg connoisseur, the one who keeps chickens and gets his eggs directly from them, or the guy who buys his eggs at the supermarket.
Eventually, the guy who claims to know everything about the history of poultry comes along and we already know where that road leads. Arguments about free range chickens vs. the alternative, whether or not being a vegan is superior to being an ovolactovegetarian.
Andre
I almost lost my coffee up mine nose from this one!!
I do think, though, that the idea of aesthetics being another reason for going RTR is a stretch there..just a little....
Now, if it is about infirmities...oh sure then RTR might be a good idea...although there are times when a little bit of modelling is a good form of occupational therapy...and I work in the field....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Interesting to read everyone's opinions. I am not the one to argue your economics with... Tell the guy who doesn't have $25 - $40 for train cars those, higher priced- justification points.
He won't care, and really guys... how many people are just going to exit.. out of the new rtr market?
I am not talking about ebay, all that kit is now oop. The retail market ex: hobby shop. IS the point.
This was always an inexpensive hobby, if one chose, at least since I've been a modeler, since 1968.
Read up on Irv Athearn history. Why do you think it was a priority of his to keep it affordable for the many? Because, that is called growth.
Like I said, you need not argue with me. Tell it to those who don't have the money, for the new higher priced rtr trains. Walk up to that parent and tell him why his $25 car is now a better value, than last years $10 option. After you tell that guy, you can post how you convinced him to spend the extra money. Then post your victory here.
Have a nice day.
Non Profit Train Video Review Information.
William
My take:
I LIKE kits, I really do. But if it's gonna be a Pain In The Aft, yes Branchline, I'm looking at you, then no. thanks. many people will telly uo that Athearn and Accurail don't really count as kits, either, because they're so simple. I toy with the Bowsers I have on hand, though I haven't picked anything up of theirs for a while. But again, they go togehter well and with no fuss, a definate plus.
I tire of people who say a buyer is not a modeller. That simply isn't true. I buy the same foam as you, the same woodland scenics green flaky stuff, the same Atlas Track, the same trees. But is my forest scene going to look like yours? Nope. So why is it that people who buy their rolling stock are going to end up woth the same layout? It;s not about whtehr or not you've BUILT or simply AQUIRED your stuff, it's about how you put the pieces all together for the final scene. THAT'S what modelling is.(for moi)
And regardless, both forms will likely get tweaked at some point in the futre. Coaches get people, freight cars get crates int he door, locomtives get a crew, buildings get interiors, whether it's a kit or a readybuilt/RTR So, which is better: Does one fill your need and the other not? Or if they both do, do you have the time, patience, and interest to build? Are you looking to add anything, where it might helpt o have it already in pieces instead of diassembling? Or does it come apart easy enough to do what you'll want?
-Morgan
B&O SteamDemon Ok, which do you think looks better on the layout, the RTR's you can buy that have lots of details, or the kits you can buy and build and use on the layout? Assembly time is not an issue with this question, it's about visual and overall appearance on the layout. This applies to all aspects i.e. engines, freight cars, and passenger cars.
Ok, which do you think looks better on the layout, the RTR's you can buy that have lots of details, or the kits you can buy and build and use on the layout? Assembly time is not an issue with this question, it's about visual and overall appearance on the layout. This applies to all aspects i.e. engines, freight cars, and passenger cars.
Not according to the OP it isn't ....
jasperofzeal Regarding the OP's original question: I find RTR to look better than certain kits.
Regarding the OP's original question: I find RTR to look better than certain kits.
The original question was "Which IS better?", not "Which LOOKS better?"
My question is: Which is better a loco carved out of a bar of soap or a factory painted brass model?
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
I recently purchased some ExactRail ABOX box cars and the detailing on those models is very nice. As I was looking over some re-do projects I have in a box, I came accross an Athearn 50' Railbox type box car that I need to strip and re-do. The details on the Athearn car are molded on and look crude, at least now they do. Sure I can take the time to remove the details and add free standing grabs, etched metal end walkways, brake piping, better looking trucks/wheels in order to bring it up to par with today's RTR models (which I will do). But adding all the detail parts combined with the price of the kit will bring the total cost of the car up. My point is that if some people feel they need to spend the extra money to super-detail a kit with molded on details, the price of the original kit will increase, and depending on the model, it might come close to a RTR's selling price, so why not get the RTR and save some time and effort? Even RTR's have some room for improvement. For example the ExactRail box cars I purchased can have some coupler cut levers, Sergent couplers, air hoses, and semi-scale wheels added to improve them. This is going to increase the price I spent on each car but I would have gladly paid that if ExactRail had done the job for me to begin with. We all approach the hobby differently and none of us are wrong as long as we enjoy what we do.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
blownout cylinder OK..on a purely aesthetic level then I could argue that MY pieces are more aesthetically pleasing...to ME. And that is the crux of the argument right there..beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Unless someone comes up with an aesthetic-o-meter this will continue round and round like a loopie loopii...
OK..on a purely aesthetic level then I could argue that MY pieces are more aesthetically pleasing...to ME.
And that is the crux of the argument right there..beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
Unless someone comes up with an aesthetic-o-meter this will continue round and round like a loopie loopii...
Agreed.
I'd even take it a step further, and say that the real problem that I have come to observe in the hobby since I returned three years ago isn’t whether someone chooses to scratch build, assemble a kit, or purchase RTR, but is that it’s simply much easier to log on to a forum and complain than it is to actually pursue the hobby of model railroading.
Instead of worrying about X versus Y, maybe just consider the “U”, and what you want to do. And than do it.
It’s just as easy to find excuses to actually do some work in the hobby, as it is to find excuses not to.
If buying RTR, or kit bashing, or scratch building is the excuse somebody needs to do something, than I’m all for it (especially if they come back and actually share their work and experiences, instead of another pointless diatribe)
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
OP's original question: Which is better? Well, it depends:
Depends who is building ...Most of the guys I know build better looking stuff than you can buy RTR. I am speaking mainly of mass produced buildings and freight/passenger cars, not locomotives.
Depends on What you want . Many of my friends and myself also build stuff that you cant buy either as RTR or sometimes even in kit form.. Of course, we generally enjoy this sort of thing...
Depends on the quality of the kit A blue box kit is not going to build up into something to compete with a Kadee RTR, but a Sunshine or Westerfield kit might (or even surpass the Kadee)...
Depends on the RTR...Blackstone and Kadee freight cars are quite good (with a price tag to match), Walthers built ups (Structures)??? well.....
I think you need both in the hobby...I won't live long enough to scratchbuild (or even kit build) everything and lead a semi-normal life. Nor am I interested in building/scratchbuilding locomotives (brass consumes enough time already)
Of course, opinions will vary....
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
TA462 People still aren't reading the question. What looks better is the question. Take out all the political crap about what makes a hobbiest vs a collector. The question is what looks better, period. The original poster very clearly said time is not a issue. People need to read the original post again.
To me, my kit built freight cars and fine tuned and painted brass engines are something to be proud off and I get the majority of my enjoyment building them. The newer RTR stuff is great and has its place in the hobby as well, and some of it is drop dead beautifull. When I build my kits I have a 2 foot rule, if I cant see it from 2 feet away, I probably wont bother to install it when I build the kit. Like full brake rigging, I put the major items there, but not every single linkage and rod. We all have our own comfort level as to what extent we want our models detailed, and what material they are made of. I have everything from finely detailed brass engines, to vintage cast brass Bowser mountain class engine, from shake the box Athearn car kits to craftsman wood car kits. They all fill a need on my layout and fit in my comfort zone for rolling stock and locomotives. They are not for everyone but I am happy and thats the most important part. Personaly I feel paying 10-25 dollers for a nice wood car kit, either new from the likes of Labelle or Silver Streak, or a vintage Ambroid kit ect and getting the several evenings worth of buidling enjoyment is more value for the money spent, than any 20 doller or higher RTR freight car. I shudder thinking of what it would cost $$ wise to replace my HOn3 stuff with current production from Blackstone. Thier stuff is great looking, but hold on to ones wallet when it comes to the prices, even on the net. Many newer modelers I meet or that join our local clubs have never gotten to hold, operate or see some of the older kits or brass engines. But I can say that I have converted many over to this side of the hobby, much to thier enjoyment. Once they see how easy it is to remove the boiler from a PFM/United brass steamer over their Bachmann, BLI ect steamer. It all comes down to enjoyment, if it "floats your boat", then by all means go for it and enjoy your hobby! Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
andrechapelonI rarely buy things at train shows, nor do I consider them a substitute for a hobby shop. The fact remains, however, that there's a cost associated with any activity. I don't go to the hobby shop unless it's incidental to visiting the grandkid closest to said hobby shop since the trip then has more than one purpose and the cost can be spread over multiple activities. As for your question as how going to a train show and not buying anything factors into the cost of model railroad items, it's this. It costs me about $30 out of pocket to go to a train show regardless of whether or not any item is purchased. It's $30 that once spent, won't be available for other purposes. That doesn't mean that I won't go ahead and do it, it's just that I'm acutely aware that money is being spent. I'm a member of a regular monthly operating crew. It's a 60 mile round trip and about $7 in gas at today's prices. I enjoy it and consider it worth the money spent. However, I'm always aware there's a cost associated with it (60 miles closer to needing new tires, the brakes done, a replacement vehicle, gas, etc.). Andre
As for your question as how going to a train show and not buying anything factors into the cost of model railroad items, it's this. It costs me about $30 out of pocket to go to a train show regardless of whether or not any item is purchased. It's $30 that once spent, won't be available for other purposes. That doesn't mean that I won't go ahead and do it, it's just that I'm acutely aware that money is being spent. I'm a member of a regular monthly operating crew. It's a 60 mile round trip and about $7 in gas at today's prices. I enjoy it and consider it worth the money spent. However, I'm always aware there's a cost associated with it (60 miles closer to needing new tires, the brakes done, a replacement vehicle, gas, etc.).
Yes, going to train shows costs money. But my point is, it is a separate cost to models. This topic is about what trains look best on a layout, RTR or kit built. I just don't think it is fair to add the cost of going to a show on to the cost of obtaining trains. Its separate and in my opinion, really unrealated to the topic. Its entertainment. Feel free about making a topic about train shows and how much they cost, or are they what they used to be or whatever.
Now, I'm as much aware of the rising cost of the hobby and with my current economic status, I'm chosing to live within my means and not blow savings on trains, instead of disposable income I can afford from my monthly earnings. We've seen decent RTR freight cars go from street price of $15-20 to $25-35 each. I didn't realize how prophetic Tangent models would be when they were selling for $45. Now we have many Athearn Genesis and Walthers freight cars MSRP of $35-45, and single plastic diesels ranging from $150-250 - prices I used to associate with European engines!
Well, the kit vs RTR is kind of academic when there are very few kits being made anymore, and most of the kits we find are older production still on Train Show tables. Walthers, Athearn BB, Brancline, Intermountain, MDC, Proto 2000 and Accurail - thats the lions share right there. I've got enough P2k, Athearn and Int Mnt kits to satify any kit building urges I get, which isn't that often. As I get older, I enjoy building kits alot less due to how difficult it is to see the tiny parts. I got a sprue cutter which makes despruing a snap, and have a crook neck lighted magnifier too.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
GP39,I just searched for "Athearn kits" on eBay and found over 660 results, so there are still plenty on the market. Goodness knows there were hundreds of under-$10 Athearn BB's at the Springfield Show last month. Please note that there were plenty left at the end of the show, too. If there was some huge demand for under-$10 cars, why aren't they selling out at every train show?
At any rate, the Athearn RTR caboose does have some improvements over the old BB kits, namely new endrails & brake stand, smoke stack, windows, better painting & lettering, metal wheels, and couplers. So it's not exactly the "same caboose".
There are very few under-$10 cars anywhere these days, this is true. But then minimum wage is $7.25, gas is $3.31 a gallon, and milk is over $3.00 a gallon...
With your opinions, you are neither right nor wrong (that's what my school teachers all said). However, you did not merely make your opinion known, you made a few non-opinion statements: "I see where the hobby and the manufacturers always want more of everything. They forget the roots of model railroading. It was generally inexpensive and the modeler had the choice to upgrade quality and costs when he could. Athearn has made a huge mistake, by stopping the blue box option."
Um, no, model railroading was not "generally inexpensive". That's where you are dead wrong. It's never been a poor man's hobby, and expecting the manufacturers to return to their "roots" that never existed is more than silly. Oh, and Athearn is not a charity. There was one quote floating around out there that Athearn's CEO at the time said that if they hadn't gone into Genesis and RTR that Athearn would have closed years ago. Also, another factor they said is that the new cost to make the BB's was going to result in the same prices as RTR models do. So what's the bigger mistake? Drop a weak product line and concentrat on more profitable lines, or keep making the weak product line until they go out of business entirely?
Paul A. Cutler III
Andre,
It is true that going to a train show costs money, but I don't factor in the gas and admissions fee (none of the shows I go to charges for parking). Why? Because I don't go to train shows strictly as a substitute for the hobby shop, I go for fun, to watch trains run on layouts and for a fun day out. I have gone to train shows and not come away with anything or maybe only one item. If I didn't buy something and sometimes I haven't, how does that factor into the cost of a model train? It doesn't if you don't buy any.
I rarely buy things at train shows, nor do I consider them a substitute for a hobby shop. The fact remains, however, that there's a cost associated with any activity. I don't go to the hobby shop unless it's incidental to visiting the grandkid closest to said hobby shop since the trip then has more than one purpose and the cost can be spread over multiple activities.
The purpose of going to a train show is for enjoyment. Anyone can do the math, and it's always cheaper to sit home. It' cheaper to have many items mailed to me. That's not the point...at all.
That 10 or 20 bucks is what someone may have to spend on any given day. Not all of the time.
All this beancounter activity is a joke. By the way, in the early '70's kits could be had easily for 2.00, so don't lecture me with an inflated 1950's price. Even train shows in the 80's would have bb kits 5/ 10 and deals like that. LOL.
I have bought both and all I said was about how nice it was to have a choice. You argumentive types are missing the point. That's why I really don't hang much in forums. They just get silly!
Have a great day :)
CLEARLY there are RTR cars sold today which simply are difficult to match or rival from a kit unless you are a top shelf modeler. I look at the lovely Trailer Train flat cars I have from Walthers or the sweet covered hoppers from Tangent or Exact Rail. Heck, even the 5-bay rapid discharge coal hoppers or Thrall Gon's have nice individual grab irons etc. I don't have the patience or steady hand to add all those little items and have them come out looking so nice. This is really a no brainer.
Pastor Bob,
I get a good chuckle from reading your posts. If I'm ever in your neck of the woods in Kansas, and there isn't tornado threatening to touch down, I'd love to come by and visit! In only about an hour my British fiancee is scheduled to touch down at Dulles airport. I'm trying to convert her into trains! She seems very open to it!
It was just last year, that I could find blue box kits, at the hobby shop for under ten dollars. Spare me the economics lecture. The fact is, there are plenty of people that don't have alot of spare cash these days. Go to a train show and notice how many people are looking for inexpensive freight cars.
Apparently those people aren't figuring the cost of just getting to the train show and parking. The nearest train show to me is 75 miles away (as is the nearest good hobby shop). That's a 150 mile round trip. IIRC, the last one I went to cost me $8 to get in and $5 for the privilege of parking. I don't just figure gas cost either, but the full cost of driving (depreciation, wear and tear, insurance, gas, etc.), which for me, is about $0.45/mile. Lemme see. We have $13 to park and get in and 150 x $0.45, which equals $67.50. So far, that's $80.50 and I haven't even seen a caboose yet. Shoot, for that kind of money, I can get three $25 cabooses online and still pay for most of the shipping.
Even if I just calculate immediate out of pocket costs, the 30 mpg my car gets will take 5 gallons for a round trip. That's $17.65 just to get to the hobby shop or show site (gas averages $3.53/gal where I live). Then there's there's the $13 for admission and parking at the show. That's over $30 out of pocket just to get to the show on the off chance I can score a $10 BB caboose "kit" as the hobby shop doesn't have any more. That $10 caboose isn't looking so cheap now, especially since I can pick up my cell phone, call the hobby shop (which, by the way, will sell me that $25 caboose for $20 + tax + shipping) and get that $25 caboose for less than it would cost me to drive to a train show to get that $10 bargain.
Incidentally, Centralia Car Shops makes a much more highly detailed (and undecorated) kit for the Santa Fe caboose. http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/html/ccs1199.htm They do, however, want $29.95 for it.
In all likelihood, however, I wouldn't buy the Athearn caboose you've mentioned for one simple reason. It's based on a Santa Fe prototype. I don't have anything against Santa Fe, but SP's cabeese were different. What I really want is one of these: http://www.wrighttrak.com/page3.php?category=2&view=productListPage&postPage=2 or these: http://www.traincat2.com/ , both of which are kits.
You'll notice that the TrainCat caboose has only been released in N scale although TrainCat's said they intend to do the HO version. That brings up an interesting point. The people wailing and gnashing their teeth about the lack of kits are almost universally the HO guys. N scale has been essentially RTR from the get-go. The Micro-Trains N scale wooden cupola caboose (based on the SP C30-1) retails for $28.70. The N scale Athearn SP C50-9 caboose retails for $29.95.
P.S. If you really want to hyperventilate, check out the HO caboose page from Intermountain:
http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/ccsho.html
P.P.S.
If it's the $10 caboose you're after, check this out: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-Scale-Cabooses-s/1497.htm?searching=Y&sort=1&cat=1497&show=32&page=1
Just looked at a Branchline Berwick kit and a Exactrail RTR boxcar and the RTR looks better to me.And checked out a Intermountain 60 ft flat kit and the same RTR one looks better also.
Russell
I like RTR better than kits that take hours to build.
OK that's all well and good BUT some of us have some health issues such as Cataracts or difficulty seeing glasses, lots of light or whatever. There are also issues related to living with shaky hands. It's darned hard to put those tiny little screws in under such conditions.
I do agree that the "Craftsman" / "Scratch built" is provides a sense of accomplishment but as one gets older and begin to have health issues, one has to make some choices. No RR or settle for less perfection.
Dennis
CDN Dennis
Modeling the HO scale something or other RR in the shadow of the Canadian Rockies Alberta, Canada
Please excuse me for a moment. I'd like to give my opinion to the OP's question. Thank you.
For me, it depends. It depends on how good of model the RTR is, and/or how good of job you did on the kit and how well detailed either are. That is if you are taking out the modifications that some do to either. Myself, I choose either based on how the individual item strikes me.
Sorry for the interruption.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled battle.
Now that everyone has chosen up sides and smelled armpits, let me say this: I buy what fills a need for me. I don't care what anyone else does for their model railroad gratification. Simply, there is no way I could (scratch build or kit build) tobuild up the fleet of Santa Fe grain cars that I have amassed from Exactrail in my lifetime. I don't want to wait until I am on my deathbed to scratchbuild or even kitbuild that many cars.
On the other hand, models that would likely only be available in kits that I want are cars I will build. I don't want to die with a bunch of unassembled kits on the shelves. I want to enjoy the layout, the operation and the engine/cars asap.
Which looks best? depends on the car, the manufacturer, etc. I remember several years finishing a scratchbult project that took many moons to complete. First run in a train, a car ahead derailed putting it and the scratchbuilt on the floor. The car ahead survived with damage. The scratchbuilt, nada.
I have been in this hobby since late 1950's without a break. Have seen and met many of the so called shakers and movers, guess what, they put their pants on one leg at a time like me.
I am in the hobby first to satisfy my need, to earn praise and glory and trophies from others is a distant second.
There is not better, only which you like better.
If I see a kit I like, I buy it and build it.
If I see a RTR I like, I buy it.
This is not rocket science. It is model railroading and the hobby is continually evolving
Not an issue for me.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
TA462 Howmus, nice job on that flat car BUT go back and read the original question. A Athearn flat car with a couple old John Deere tractors is a far cry from a highly detailed RTR model, lol. I always wondered who bought those things. Compare it to a Proto 2000 flat car instead.
Howmus, nice job on that flat car BUT go back and read the original question. A Athearn flat car with a couple old John Deere tractors is a far cry from a highly detailed RTR model, lol. I always wondered who bought those things. Compare it to a Proto 2000 flat car instead.
Hi TA462,
Well, I was replying to the OPs question. And yes this may have been a poor example, but even the very best, most up to date, with the finest possible tooling, is not as good as a well made kit (in my eyes). Remember, "Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder". All of you have the choice of what you want to run on your layouts.... No question there. The hobby is many things to different people (as it should be). We all value things differently. The "Horrible" Hobbies flat car is all of about 6 years old. There will come a time it will be used as a door prize at one of our Division Meets.... It is just so bad. It is carrying Waterloo Boy John Deere Tractors (presumably) to market on a flat car that was manufactured 5 years after John Deere stopped production of the tractor. It has molded in brake stuff, and the assembly for the tractors is also part of the mold... This car was in production until just a couple years ago. That said the Pocher Overland Passenger car at the top of the photo is over 50 years old, has been repainted, upgraded with Kadee couplers and trucks. It will stay in service on my Pike for a long time. It was given to me over 40 years ago by my late FIL. It is one of the truly Valuable models I have (to me anyway...)
For the most part, RTR does not interest me because for me (notice I didn't say you or anyone else) they are boring! Yep, pure boring! No fun whatsoever, unless I spend some major time changing out, detailing, and repainting them.....
So to each their own. It is a very large hobby. But for me and MY layout, a good, frustrating, difficult kit looks better each and every time!!! It has a lot more of me in it. The same is true for structures. I would much prefer something I Scratch Built to even a Craftsman Kit (and I have done several of those with a couple in progress at the moment).
If I had to only have RTR stuff, I would probably give up the hobby as it would no longer be fun in any way shape nor manner. Again this is not a judgment on anyone else. It IS a big hobby!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
The latest Athearn rtr cupola caboose is 24.95, with the decades old tooling. That same caboose was bought last year for 9.99. Now, I had to put it together, and add some clear window material. All I said was I miss having the choice.
As far as it being inexpensive, it always has been that way, if they chose that option. That factor was an attraction for newcomers too. Now, someone looks for a rtr caboose at 25 dollars and up. They don't even get the under ten dollar option. What do you think the significant other or a parent,says about spending 10 vs. 25 bucks on a single car?
Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. To say that I am just wrong.. Well , that is just silly!
Getting back to the original question. Neither one is inherently better looking than the other. Most kits and most RTR can have more detail added if desired.
One of the nice things today is that you an choose from so many options. Personally, I do some of all - scratchbuild, kit build, RTR, kitbash, and I'm planning some RTRbash. My main goal is a fairly large (600-900 sq ft) layout. To that end, I use a lot of RTR just to get going. But I like the other also.
I think one thing that's been alluded to, but often overlooked in this hobby is that some of us are primarily model builders and some of us are primarily layout builders. For small layouts you can easily do both, but as the layout gets larger or the models get more detailed and proto48/64/87 most of us favor one over the other.
Enjoy
Paul
When I entered the hobby, the only RTR was what was available in 'trainsets'. I grew up building kits from Athearn (the old metal ones), Varney, Silver Streak, Ambroid, Ulrich and several other manufacturers. That was how I got my fleet--I built it. Not to sound 'snobbish', but when Athearn went from metal to plastic, I actually felt CHEATED, because a car that used to take me several days to build could now be done in five minutes and put on the track. Where was the fun in that, LOL?
As to the quality of RTR these days--yes, they're exquisitely detailed, but I hesitate to call them actually RTR, since it usually entails changing out couplers and occasionally wheelsets. Of the current kits available (for as long as they may still be), I enjoy Tichy, Intermountain and the older Red Caboose. Lots of little parts just like the old Athearn metal kits. Fun (and sometimes frustrating at my age) to put together, and something I can admire when it's coupled up behind one of my locos. P2K kits not so much for me--nothing seems to want to fit where it's supposed to--or it's just me, I'm not sure. If I fall in love with a car from P2K, it's usually an RTR. Actually, I don't think I have more than four or five P2K cars on the layout, anyway.
But frankly speaking, nothing I've bought in RTR is strictly that--there's ALWAYS something to tweak. How many of you have put an 85' Walthers passenger car on the tracks and had it run perfectly right out of the box? Yah, I thought so.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
R-t-r certainly has its place in the hobby today and is greatly improved over yesterday's version, the train set. However, many of us still consider these latest offerings to be less-than-r-t-r and buy it only in order to obtain equipment which is otherwise not available. After making the "improvements" we deem necessary, it goes into service. I can't, off-hand, think of any kits which I've built without somehow modifying and, while I don't have a lot of r-t-r stuff, none of it got to the layout without some "improvements".
Here's pretty-much all of my r-t-r stuff, all modified to varying degrees:
TrueLine caboose, a nicely-done model with close-to-scale plastic ironwork. Unfortunately, none of it matched the colour of the rest of the model. I disassembled four or five of these, repainted the offending areas, then installed window shades and, on a couple, canvas roofs:
Proto1000 Dominion boxcar, a car previously available only as craftsman-type kits. At forty bucks a whack, I couldn't afford these cars when they were first released, but later picked up some as body shells (complete, minus the floor and trucks) and, even later, as discounted r-t-r. While the offering was much appreciated (there were over 30,000 of these cars in-service in Canada alone), these cars have grossly oversize plastic grabirons, roofwalks 1' too short, and plastic brake staffs that should have been spelled "break" shafts. I replaced all of the grabs with hand made ones, since they're an odd size (38 per car, and all involving drilling), six sill steps, new roofwalks, new brake staffs, better underbody detail and new paint and lettering. I have only a dozen in service and am still awaiting the kit version from New England Rail Service.
An Ertl r-t-r gondola, picked up used. I replaced the plastic steps and grabs, then repainted and re-lettered it for CNR. Not necessarily a prototypical CN car, but a decent filler-car for trains and well worth the $2.00 or $3.00 payed.
Walthers Proto1000 composite gondolas. New r-t-r that were on sale, probably because the paint and lettering were old-style, from the 'teens and '20s - perfect for my '30s-era layout. I replaced the moulded-on grabirons and added brake rigging, changing the road numbers on a couple, and then put them into service - useful cars, easily improved, and at a decent price - perfect.
PRR express reefer, from Walthers. I liked this car when I first saw it and, even though it was r-t-r, bought it at first sight. * I just now got out the car to look at it and found instructions regarding grabiron installation. Perhaps it wasn't quite as r-t-r as I remembered. Regardless, before adding the included grabirons, I did a little research on the prototype and modified them as necessary. I also added others not included with this semi-r-t-r car and then added brake rigging and piping:
I think that's about it for my selection of r-t-r. All of my r-t-r locos are heavily modified and most of my structures are from kits or scratchbuilt. Most of my vehicles are from kits, with the few r-t-r ones modified only to include a driver.
Wayne