andrechapelon How come its $500 bucks if it says MTH or BLI on it but only $100 bucks if it says Bachmann? John So tell me where you can get a DCC and sound equipped loco from Bachmann for $100 because that's what you're trying to compare. http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewCat&catId=189 While you can certainly get one of these for less than MSRP, you'll still be considerably north of $100. Andre
How come its $500 bucks if it says MTH or BLI on it but only $100 bucks if it says Bachmann?
John
So tell me where you can get a DCC and sound equipped loco from Bachmann for $100 because that's what you're trying to compare.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewCat&catId=189
While you can certainly get one of these for less than MSRP, you'll still be considerably north of $100.
Andre
From ebay-- the guy's got at least three listings of these, and each of those is for multiple units. I agree that's a bit bigger than your typical loco. But the same thing from MTH or BLI is still around $500 bucks. Best I've seen for something similar to this from them is around $450.
(Moderators: I removed the link since this is just an example listing.)
andrechapelon How come its $500 bucks if it says MTH or BLI on it but only $100 bucks if it says Bachmann? John So tell me where you can get a DCC and sound equipped loco from Bachmann for $100 because that's what you're trying to compare. http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewCat&catId=189 While you can certainly get one of these for less than MSRP, you'll still be considerably north of $100. Now if you don't want DCC/Sound, then you can get Bachmann for substantially less, but it's not valid to compare those to the BLI, MTH, Walthers "luxury" models any more than it's valid to compare a base model Corolla to a loaded Avalon. Both will get you where you want to go, but the Avalon will cost you quite a bit more for the privilege. Of course, you could always do the Johnny Cash routine and build it "One Piece At A Time" (and it won't cost you a dime). http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/onepieceatatime.html OTOH, you'd have to get a job with Walthers, BLI, MTH......... Andre
Now if you don't want DCC/Sound, then you can get Bachmann for substantially less, but it's not valid to compare those to the BLI, MTH, Walthers "luxury" models any more than it's valid to compare a base model Corolla to a loaded Avalon. Both will get you where you want to go, but the Avalon will cost you quite a bit more for the privilege.
Of course, you could always do the Johnny Cash routine and build it "One Piece At A Time" (and it won't cost you a dime).
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/onepieceatatime.html
OTOH, you'd have to get a job with Walthers, BLI, MTH.........
The last two 2-8-0's I bought (from the Favorite Spot) on ebay were both under $100 and had sound and dcc.
But I'll agree that I paid less than usual-- so let's say $500 from MTH and BLI and $200 from Bachmann 'cause I can buy those all day long.
But still, there's a huge unexplained difference in price. Sound and DCC decoders don't cost that much to make, they're just priced expensively.
One thing seems to be overlooked - there just aren't that many model railroaders! No matter how much we think our hobby is the best one ever (and it is!), there just aren't that many of this. 'VOLUME' is not a word in the MRR manufacturing industry.
On top of that, that limited pool of potential customers has gotten a lot pickier in the past few years. No longer is it acceptable to build one F unit body and print on the road name of every railroad that ever owned one (and even some that didn't). That's not good enough any more. Modelers have demanded more prototypical accuracy and manufacturers have delivered - but to make all those variations means even smaller unit sales and higher costs.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
galaxy Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!!
Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!!
One may hope that equally steamed citizen voters might do something about that.
fwright Sir Madog: Michael - it is a question of who´s bagging the money, the manufacturer or the importer? My guess is, that for a $ 28 car, the manufacturer sees not more than $ 5. Does it matter who bags the money? While I doubt that most model railroad importers or manufacturers are looking for huge profits or easy money, a healthy profit is essential for conducting business and risking capital in the first place. I learned never to begrudge another person his money as long as it was come by honestly (not through cheating or intentional fraud).Fred W
Sir Madog: Michael - it is a question of who´s bagging the money, the manufacturer or the importer? My guess is, that for a $ 28 car, the manufacturer sees not more than $ 5.
Michael - it is a question of who´s bagging the money, the manufacturer or the importer? My guess is, that for a $ 28 car, the manufacturer sees not more than $ 5.
Does it matter who bags the money?
While I doubt that most model railroad importers or manufacturers are looking for huge profits or easy money, a healthy profit is essential for conducting business and risking capital in the first place. I learned never to begrudge another person his money as long as it was come by honestly (not through cheating or intentional fraud).Fred W
So then a reasonable question is:
When does the amount of mark-up / profit tip from being "honest" to "cheating" or "fraud" ??
Mister Mikado I for one can't understand how equipping a $100 DC loco with a decoder and sound chip jacks the price of it up to 2-3 hundred or more. If you add a decoder and sound module yourself to a DC loco, it costs a fraction of that. Is the rest labor? Feels like the market is taking advantage of us because we want our DCC and sound. It's like buying a new $25000 car--OK, you want a GPS and back seat DVD player?--$75000. We'd all walk out of the dealer showroom in a heartbeat. Lucky for me I bought all my stock a few years ago when Spectrum and Genesis DC steam was $100 (or less! ), Proto and Atlas DC diesels were $40 on average and Athearn blue boxes were $4-$7 in the hobby shops. Ah, the good old days! Robby
I for one can't understand how equipping a $100 DC loco with a decoder and sound chip jacks the price of it up to 2-3 hundred or more. If you add a decoder and sound module yourself to a DC loco, it costs a fraction of that. Is the rest labor? Feels like the market is taking advantage of us because we want our DCC and sound. It's like buying a new $25000 car--OK, you want a GPS and back seat DVD player?--$75000. We'd all walk out of the dealer showroom in a heartbeat. Lucky for me I bought all my stock a few years ago when Spectrum and Genesis DC steam was $100 (or less! ), Proto and Atlas DC diesels were $40 on average and Athearn blue boxes were $4-$7 in the hobby shops. Ah, the good old days!
Robby
Oh, they are, they are. I bought my kid a set of three emergency trucks last year for christmas. My total outlay? $19 bucks. Each one is a bit bigger than a large box of matches-- maybe two boxes, and has batteries, on-board sound and flashing emegency lights (that sound as good as any of the HO sound decoders, IMO), metal axles, three buttons to push to make the sounds, rubber (or nearly rubber) tires, and reasonably decent detail-- not P2K quality but easily as good as Athearn blue boxes of not too long ago, and a pull-back rubber band drive. And the plastic is thick enough to withstand kid-abuse (tossing, kicking, stepping-on, falling down the stairs, and beating on other toys with) and they still look good and work good, aside from some slightly warped axles.
*Three* of 'em, for $19 bucks. Which means someone even made a profit on 'em. And I've seen the sound boards, they're roughly the same size as the sound decoders for the trains.
You can't tell me in any way that I'll believe that it costs that much to make this stuff. Sure I believe there are upfront tooling costs and whatnot. But these toys aren't such major sellers or perennial sellers or bring in so much money that their manufacture run is going to be all that much greater than a typical loco run.
And before you start the "buh-buh-buh"-ing...
Seems like I touched a nerve somewhere.
Interesting.
Very interesting.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
CNJ831 galaxy: While economics is a debatable "science" that fluctuates... Naive? well lets look at what happened a few years ago with gas prices in the USA. {I know you guys in europe and elswhere pay more than we do due to your road taxes and other taxes added to your gasoline bill}. The export Oil companies who import to the USA raised prices and raised prices and futures orders drove prices higher. From $2.00 a gallon to $4.50 a gallon in my area. During the summer travel season, The Financial media pointed out the Exporting oil countries had "squeezed the golden egg-laying goose of the USA until it stopped laying the golden eggs that made them so rich" {raised prices to where people didn't buy it anymore so they weren;t making as much} so the prices had to come down. They found the point at which Americans where no longer willing to buy their expensive goods. The same will happen with the hobby. When there are no longer sales on the expensive models that were 25% cheaper a year ago, maybe they will get the hint that we won't pay inflated prices. True, it will seem that more LHS will close down, but I think online e-tailers will survive better so its not like it will bring about the demise of the hobby. It may make it a bit tougher, but then prices will come down when they need to "fire sale" goods to get some money coming in and make some profits, or find that people won't buy pre-order stuff at high prices. The manufacturers may find they "squeeze the golden egg-laying goose" too hard and we just won't pay their inflated prices. They will find the point at which we will no longer pay their high prices. When the economy recovers perhaps we will again buy in larger quantities and all will be happy. Until then, those who will not pay the inflated prices simply will not part with their money to the greedy suppliers, simple as that. Unfortunately, the approach of not buying by the average hobbyist will not strongly influence the model railroad manufacturers to lower prices for the simple reason that there is currently a significant percentage of hobbyists that appear quite willing to pay virtually any price for the latest item. And judging by what one sees posted on various forums, they are still asking the manufacturers for further, additional cost, "improvements" to the models. If you think prices are a hindrance to some, just look around this forum and see the posts from fellas indicating how they recently acquired "4 of these and 7 of those" new engines, or are purchasing whole fleets of hoppers, etc. It's only the little guys that suffer from pricing currently and we are not what is driving the hobby any longer in the manufacturers' eyes. In an age of pre-orders and limited production runs of models that are all but fully spoken for before they ever arrive on our shores, the guys occasionally purchasing in ones, perhaps twos, of a given item no longer really matter. If you look into events of the past 15, or so years, you'll see that it is the hobbyists that have most definitely brought the current situation upon themselves. Prior to the coming of the Internet, probably 90% of hobbyists were reasonably content with what was being offered. If what was available didn't match your prototype, you modified it yourself to the particular specs. That was part of the fun! However, with the rise of hobby forums on the Internet one began to see a very small, but highly vocal, group of zealots endlessly demanding far more sophisticated models, simultaneously claiming they'd be willing to pay for such. At the same time these guys also would belittle existing models over lack of road-specific detailing...because they apparently were incapable to actual kitbashing, or otherwise modifying, models themselves. Likewise, virtually every new, modestly detailed, model to appear was criticized by these "experts" across the Internet for their supposed short-comings. Eventually such posts influenced and won over others, particularly the no-can-do hobbyists and this undoubted hurt sales. As a result, one by one the manufacturers began offering increasingly detailed, super accurate, models at ever increasing prices. So...the "I must have prototypical accuracy, with smoke, sound, and more" folks have gotten their wish. Yes, many of the current models are indeed starting to approach brass-level quality, but so are their prices. So long as the current crop of big spendering, largely non-modelers, are with us, any boycotting by the little guy will have no significant impact on sales in most quarters. As long as even a modest percentage of hobbyists keep purchasing expensive models the only response from the manufacturers to boycotting will be the further limiting of production runs, expansion of pre-orders and jacking the prices higher yet. I see high-end steam definitely reaching, or exceed, $1,000 per unit, with diesels not far behind, before the end of this decade. If some of you think the hobby is too expensive now...just wait a while. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy...and he is us!" CNJ831
galaxy: While economics is a debatable "science" that fluctuates... Naive? well lets look at what happened a few years ago with gas prices in the USA. {I know you guys in europe and elswhere pay more than we do due to your road taxes and other taxes added to your gasoline bill}. The export Oil companies who import to the USA raised prices and raised prices and futures orders drove prices higher. From $2.00 a gallon to $4.50 a gallon in my area. During the summer travel season, The Financial media pointed out the Exporting oil countries had "squeezed the golden egg-laying goose of the USA until it stopped laying the golden eggs that made them so rich" {raised prices to where people didn't buy it anymore so they weren;t making as much} so the prices had to come down. They found the point at which Americans where no longer willing to buy their expensive goods. The same will happen with the hobby. When there are no longer sales on the expensive models that were 25% cheaper a year ago, maybe they will get the hint that we won't pay inflated prices. True, it will seem that more LHS will close down, but I think online e-tailers will survive better so its not like it will bring about the demise of the hobby. It may make it a bit tougher, but then prices will come down when they need to "fire sale" goods to get some money coming in and make some profits, or find that people won't buy pre-order stuff at high prices. The manufacturers may find they "squeeze the golden egg-laying goose" too hard and we just won't pay their inflated prices. They will find the point at which we will no longer pay their high prices. When the economy recovers perhaps we will again buy in larger quantities and all will be happy. Until then, those who will not pay the inflated prices simply will not part with their money to the greedy suppliers, simple as that.
While economics is a debatable "science" that fluctuates...
Naive? well lets look at what happened a few years ago with gas prices in the USA. {I know you guys in europe and elswhere pay more than we do due to your road taxes and other taxes added to your gasoline bill}.
The export Oil companies who import to the USA raised prices and raised prices and futures orders drove prices higher. From $2.00 a gallon to $4.50 a gallon in my area. During the summer travel season, The Financial media pointed out the Exporting oil countries had "squeezed the golden egg-laying goose of the USA until it stopped laying the golden eggs that made them so rich" {raised prices to where people didn't buy it anymore so they weren;t making as much} so the prices had to come down. They found the point at which Americans where no longer willing to buy their expensive goods. The same will happen with the hobby. When there are no longer sales on the expensive models that were 25% cheaper a year ago, maybe they will get the hint that we won't pay inflated prices.
True, it will seem that more LHS will close down, but I think online e-tailers will survive better so its not like it will bring about the demise of the hobby. It may make it a bit tougher, but then prices will come down when they need to "fire sale" goods to get some money coming in and make some profits, or find that people won't buy pre-order stuff at high prices. The manufacturers may find they "squeeze the golden egg-laying goose" too hard and we just won't pay their inflated prices. They will find the point at which we will no longer pay their high prices.
When the economy recovers perhaps we will again buy in larger quantities and all will be happy. Until then, those who will not pay the inflated prices simply will not part with their money to the greedy suppliers, simple as that.
Unfortunately, the approach of not buying by the average hobbyist will not strongly influence the model railroad manufacturers to lower prices for the simple reason that there is currently a significant percentage of hobbyists that appear quite willing to pay virtually any price for the latest item. And judging by what one sees posted on various forums, they are still asking the manufacturers for further, additional cost, "improvements" to the models. If you think prices are a hindrance to some, just look around this forum and see the posts from fellas indicating how they recently acquired "4 of these and 7 of those" new engines, or are purchasing whole fleets of hoppers, etc. It's only the little guys that suffer from pricing currently and we are not what is driving the hobby any longer in the manufacturers' eyes. In an age of pre-orders and limited production runs of models that are all but fully spoken for before they ever arrive on our shores, the guys occasionally purchasing in ones, perhaps twos, of a given item no longer really matter.
If you look into events of the past 15, or so years, you'll see that it is the hobbyists that have most definitely brought the current situation upon themselves. Prior to the coming of the Internet, probably 90% of hobbyists were reasonably content with what was being offered. If what was available didn't match your prototype, you modified it yourself to the particular specs. That was part of the fun! However, with the rise of hobby forums on the Internet one began to see a very small, but highly vocal, group of zealots endlessly demanding far more sophisticated models, simultaneously claiming they'd be willing to pay for such. At the same time these guys also would belittle existing models over lack of road-specific detailing...because they apparently were incapable to actual kitbashing, or otherwise modifying, models themselves. Likewise, virtually every new, modestly detailed, model to appear was criticized by these "experts" across the Internet for their supposed short-comings. Eventually such posts influenced and won over others, particularly the no-can-do hobbyists and this undoubted hurt sales. As a result, one by one the manufacturers began offering increasingly detailed, super accurate, models at ever increasing prices.
So...the "I must have prototypical accuracy, with smoke, sound, and more" folks have gotten their wish. Yes, many of the current models are indeed starting to approach brass-level quality, but so are their prices. So long as the current crop of big spendering, largely non-modelers, are with us, any boycotting by the little guy will have no significant impact on sales in most quarters. As long as even a modest percentage of hobbyists keep purchasing expensive models the only response from the manufacturers to boycotting will be the further limiting of production runs, expansion of pre-orders and jacking the prices higher yet. I see high-end steam definitely reaching, or exceed, $1,000 per unit, with diesels not far behind, before the end of this decade. If some of you think the hobby is too expensive now...just wait a while. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy...and he is us!"
CNJ831
There is alot of truth in what you say but Pogo was an optimist. Because we aren't the only enemy that needs to be taken care of. We need to very carefully scrutinize those we vote for because often their motives are more slefish and for sale than many realize. Fotr example why did the model railroad industry relocate all manufacturing and design jobs overseas? It all comes back to the fact that we have the best Congress, Senate and Presidency money can buy. But thr real blame for that is who we vote for and why.
I'll get off the soap box now.
Irv
galaxy While economics is a debatable "science" that fluctuates... Naive? well lets look at what happened a few years ago with gas prices in the USA. {I know you guys in europe and elswhere pay more than we do due to your road taxes and other taxes added to your gasoline bill}. The export Oil companies who import to the USA raised prices and raised prices and futures orders drove prices higher. From $2.00 a gallon to $4.50 a gallon in my area. During the summer travel season, The Financial media pointed out the Exporting oil countries had "squeezed the golden egg-laying goose of the USA until it stopped laying the golden eggs that made them so rich" {raised prices to where people didn't buy it anymore so they weren;t making as much} so the prices had to come down. They found the point at which Americans where no longer willing to buy their expensive goods. The same will happen with the hobby. When there are no longer sales on the expensive models that were 25% cheaper a year ago, maybe they will get the hint that we won't pay inflated prices. True, it will seem that more LHS will close down, but I think online e-tailers will survive better so its not like it will bring about the demise of the hobby. It may make it a bit tougher, but then prices will come down when they need to "fire sale" goods to get some money coming in and make some profits, or find that people won't buy pre-order stuff at high prices. The manufacturers may find they "squeeze the golden egg-laying goose" too hard and we just won't pay their inflated prices. They will find the point at which we will no longer pay their high prices. When the economy recovers perhaps we will again buy in larger quantities and all will be happy. Until then, those who will not pay the inflated prices simply will not part with their money to the greedy suppliers, simple as that.
If you look into events of the past 15, or so years, (also read my earlier long post) you'll see that it is the hobbyists that have most definitely brought the current situation upon themselves. Prior to the coming of the Internet, probably 90% of hobbyists were reasonably content with what was being offered. If what was available didn't match your prototype, you modified it yourself to the particular specs. That was part of the fun! However, with the rise of hobby forums on the Internet one began to see a very small, but highly vocal group of zealots endlessly demanding far more sophisticated models, simultaneously claiming they'd be willing to pay for such. At the same time these guys also would belittle existing models over lack of road-specific detailing...because they apparently were incapable to actual kitbashing, or otherwise modifying, models themselves. Likewise, virtually every new, modestly detailed, model to appear was criticized by these "experts" across the Internet for their supposed short-comings. Eventually such posts influenced and won over others, particularly the no-can-do hobbyists and this undoubted hurt sales. As a result, one by one the manufacturers began offering increasingly detailed, super accurate, models at ever increasing prices.
galaxy It's a funny thng. During good economic times, prices are lower, but during hard economic times prices rise to get the same profit margins. Everything is going up. But there are claims here in the USA that there is "no cost of living increase" needed for those who draw Social Security. FOr two years in a row no less. Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!! Our food bill is up by about $100-150 a month compared to what it was 2-3 years ago, and we have not changed our eating habbits and have gone to generic products to save costs. COupons off name brands often don't bring the cost down below the generic or store brand so they are useless. Even gas has been going up again around here, and we know heating oil and propane will rise as the heating season is now here.
It's a funny thng. During good economic times, prices are lower, but during hard economic times prices rise to get the same profit margins.
Everything is going up. But there are claims here in the USA that there is "no cost of living increase" needed for those who draw Social Security. FOr two years in a row no less. Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!!
Our food bill is up by about $100-150 a month compared to what it was 2-3 years ago, and we have not changed our eating habbits and have gone to generic products to save costs. COupons off name brands often don't bring the cost down below the generic or store brand so they are useless.
Even gas has been going up again around here, and we know heating oil and propane will rise as the heating season is now here.
Yes.
Corporate consolidations that eliminate the competition makes it easier to control prices and keep profit margins steady in times of recession, which is something that big institutional shareholders (i.e. mutual funds) demand. There isn't direct collusion mind you, but there are so few players in each industry that experienced management can take cues from what other companies are doing and they can all raise prices together.
That's no different in our hobby where we've had mergers. We are a captive market and the large players, mainly the distributors like Horizon and Walthers, make it difficult for the cottage industry hobby company to compete, which could possibly undercut their margins.
As an economy has a whole, the two big national distributors like Walmart and Target (technically they are retailers but function the same as distributors, they are their own middlemane so to speak) , are being found guilty of selling products with lead paint. The government makes all kinds of regulations to impede the little guy from operating but fails to enforce other regulations that really matter.
Back to our discussion of model railroad prices.........
- Douglas
corsair7 galaxy: It's a funny thng. During good economic times, prices are lower, but during hard economic times prices rise to get the same profit margins. Everything is going up. But there are claims here in the USA that there is "no cost of living increase" needed for those who draw Social Security. FOr two years in a row no less. Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!! Our food bill is up by about $100-150 a month compared to what it was 2-3 years ago, and we have not changed our eating habbits and have gone to generic products to save costs. COupons off name brands often don't bring the cost down below the generic or store brand so they are useless. Even gas has been going up again around here, and we know heating oil and propane will rise as the heating season is now here. The hobby is no different. COsts are rising faster than my eyes can digest the increases! It is during this time that we can show manufacturers and LHS that we won't stand for jacking up prices! We can do so by not buying anything new. WE can stick with putting together kits we have amassed in better years, minimizing what we spend by searching craft shops for paints and scenery stuff, shredding our own painted foam for scenery, working on the scenery of our layouts, resorting to scratch building {for some of us attempts at scratch building LOL}. There are many things we can do to keep active in the hoby "on the cheap" so to speak. WE can save for and eliminate loco or RR car purchases to a one coveted model produced. After all, one can buy 3 $100 locos or only one $350 loco! Their choice! *sigh* *alas* What can one do? Only tighten the belt buckle and grumble to anyone who will listen and commiserate. Ok so we don't buy anything until the prices go down to acceptable levels. Sounds good but it's a bit naive, because all its gonna do is force yur LHS out of buisness andreduce the number outlets you can find any kind of a decent model railroad product, If the LHS's keep leaing the field all you are going to accomplish is to give companies like Walthers even more power to determine what is available and at what price. Personally, I thik te big distributors already wield far to much power because they can set whatever produc t prices the market will bear. And they can determine what products come on the market and how they are distributed and what price it will ultimately be sold for and to whom. Take for exdample, their car float, car float apron and tugboat kits. They are the only ones importing them and they are also the only ones who can import them in the US. In the old days other importers could sell these HO scale items in other scales with no possible legal action beng taken against them abd everyone made money. But today not onl can't anyone else import these HO Scale items but they are also prohibited from doing it in other scales. So who suffers? Irv
galaxy: It's a funny thng. During good economic times, prices are lower, but during hard economic times prices rise to get the same profit margins. Everything is going up. But there are claims here in the USA that there is "no cost of living increase" needed for those who draw Social Security. FOr two years in a row no less. Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!! Our food bill is up by about $100-150 a month compared to what it was 2-3 years ago, and we have not changed our eating habbits and have gone to generic products to save costs. COupons off name brands often don't bring the cost down below the generic or store brand so they are useless. Even gas has been going up again around here, and we know heating oil and propane will rise as the heating season is now here. The hobby is no different. COsts are rising faster than my eyes can digest the increases! It is during this time that we can show manufacturers and LHS that we won't stand for jacking up prices! We can do so by not buying anything new. WE can stick with putting together kits we have amassed in better years, minimizing what we spend by searching craft shops for paints and scenery stuff, shredding our own painted foam for scenery, working on the scenery of our layouts, resorting to scratch building {for some of us attempts at scratch building LOL}. There are many things we can do to keep active in the hoby "on the cheap" so to speak. WE can save for and eliminate loco or RR car purchases to a one coveted model produced. After all, one can buy 3 $100 locos or only one $350 loco! Their choice! *sigh* *alas* What can one do? Only tighten the belt buckle and grumble to anyone who will listen and commiserate.
The hobby is no different. COsts are rising faster than my eyes can digest the increases! It is during this time that we can show manufacturers and LHS that we won't stand for jacking up prices! We can do so by not buying anything new. WE can stick with putting together kits we have amassed in better years, minimizing what we spend by searching craft shops for paints and scenery stuff, shredding our own painted foam for scenery, working on the scenery of our layouts, resorting to scratch building {for some of us attempts at scratch building LOL}. There are many things we can do to keep active in the hoby "on the cheap" so to speak. WE can save for and eliminate loco or RR car purchases to a one coveted model produced. After all, one can buy 3 $100 locos or only one $350 loco! Their choice!
*sigh* *alas* What can one do? Only tighten the belt buckle and grumble to anyone who will listen and commiserate.
Ok so we don't buy anything until the prices go down to acceptable levels. Sounds good but it's a bit naive, because all its gonna do is force yur LHS out of buisness andreduce the number outlets you can find any kind of a decent model railroad product, If the LHS's keep leaing the field all you are going to accomplish is to give companies like Walthers even more power to determine what is available and at what price. Personally, I thik te big distributors already wield far to much power because they can set whatever produc t prices the market will bear. And they can determine what products come on the market and how they are distributed and what price it will ultimately be sold for and to whom.
Take for exdample, their car float, car float apron and tugboat kits. They are the only ones importing them and they are also the only ones who can import them in the US. In the old days other importers could sell these HO scale items in other scales with no possible legal action beng taken against them abd everyone made money. But today not onl can't anyone else import these HO Scale items but they are also prohibited from doing it in other scales. So who suffers?
galaxy It's a funny thng. During good economic times, prices are lower, but during hard economic times prices rise to get the same profit margins. Everything is going up. But there are claims here in the USA that there is "no cost of living increase" needed for those who draw Social Security. FOr two years in a row no less. Yet our esteemed Congress men and Representatives have voted themselves a raise the last two years!! Our food bill is up by about $100-150 a month compared to what it was 2-3 years ago, and we have not changed our eating habbits and have gone to generic products to save costs. COupons off name brands often don't bring the cost down below the generic or store brand so they are useless. Even gas has been going up again around here, and we know heating oil and propane will rise as the heating season is now here. The hobby is no different. COsts are rising faster than my eyes can digest the increases! It is during this time that we can show manufacturers and LHS that we won't stand for jacking up prices! We can do so by not buying anything new. WE can stick with putting together kits we have amassed in better years, minimizing what we spend by searching craft shops for paints and scenery stuff, shredding our own painted foam for scenery, working on the scenery of our layouts, resorting to scratch building {for some of us attempts at scratch building LOL}. There are many things we can do to keep active in the hoby "on the cheap" so to speak. WE can save for and eliminate loco or RR car purchases to a one coveted model produced. After all, one can buy 3 $100 locos or only one $350 loco! Their choice! *sigh* *alas* What can one do? Only tighten the belt buckle and grumble to anyone who will listen and commiserate.
Motley Milepost 266.2: Sir Madog: the word quality is not existing in the Chinese language, only the word copy No, the Chinese can manufacture items that are equal the quality of any item in the world. The problem is that level of quality costs as much there as it does anywhere else. If you're shopping based solely on price, you're going to suffer the consequences, and the Chinese have no problem cranking out cheap crap if that's all you're willing to pay for. I'm sorry, but is NOT true. The products that I have had quality issues with are top of the line rolling stock with high prices. One example was a recent purchase of the new release Walthers Bi-level Autoracks, they were a whopping $28 each (at my LHS), and were $40 each on Walthers site. I had to replace ALL of the wheelsets as the darn things would not even roll, I mean come on. So I had to spend extra money to get them to roll correctly when they should have came this way right out of the box.
Milepost 266.2: Sir Madog: the word quality is not existing in the Chinese language, only the word copy No, the Chinese can manufacture items that are equal the quality of any item in the world. The problem is that level of quality costs as much there as it does anywhere else. If you're shopping based solely on price, you're going to suffer the consequences, and the Chinese have no problem cranking out cheap crap if that's all you're willing to pay for.
Sir Madog: the word quality is not existing in the Chinese language, only the word copy
the word quality is not existing in the Chinese language, only the word copy
No, the Chinese can manufacture items that are equal the quality of any item in the world. The problem is that level of quality costs as much there as it does anywhere else. If you're shopping based solely on price, you're going to suffer the consequences, and the Chinese have no problem cranking out cheap crap if that's all you're willing to pay for.
I'm sorry, but is NOT true. The products that I have had quality issues with are top of the line rolling stock with high prices. One example was a recent purchase of the new release Walthers Bi-level Autoracks, they were a whopping $28 each (at my LHS), and were $40 each on Walthers site. I had to replace ALL of the wheelsets as the darn things would not even roll, I mean come on. So I had to spend extra money to get them to roll correctly when they should have came this way right out of the box.
Ah, what the others are saying though, is Can the Chinese produce equal or greeater quality product? Yes. Are they? No. Will they? Probably not.
-Morgan
Motley Ulrich, My sediments exactly! If we're gonna pay more for these products, bring the manufacturing back to the US (or Germany in your case) so we don't have to deal with the quality issues. These companies have to see the quality issues are affecting there sales. I now stay away from some products because of defective issues. I vote with my wallet. On a side not, at least these companies are listening to us and are starting to put Kadee couplers on their rolling stock!!! I just noticed Exactrail's new releases have Kadee #5s already installed. Link
Ulrich,
My sediments exactly! If we're gonna pay more for these products, bring the manufacturing back to the US (or Germany in your case) so we don't have to deal with the quality issues.
These companies have to see the quality issues are affecting there sales. I now stay away from some products because of defective issues. I vote with my wallet.
On a side not, at least these companies are listening to us and are starting to put Kadee couplers on their rolling stock!!! I just noticed Exactrail's new releases have Kadee #5s already installed. Link
Some of them can't. For lack of a better term, their stuck. Rapido looked into that very thought, and the startup costs were something like twice or more the manufacturing costs. The actual assembly process didn't see that mch cost increase relatively, but there weren't factories in Canada that could do the printing, the molding, etc. that they needed. Being a small company, it was physically not possible. It's in one of Shron's timetables, I'm not sure wchich issue.
Sir Madog Michael - it is a question of who´s bagging the money, the manufacturer or the importer? My guess is, that for a $ 28 car, the manufacturer sees not more than $ 5.
While I doubt that most model railroad importers or manufacturers are looking for huge profits or easy money, a healthy profit is essential for conducting business and risking capital in the first place. I learned never to begrudge another person his money as long as it was come by honestly (not through cheating or intentional fraud).
It is the competition between the importers/manufacturers - and our desire to buy and pay for that better quality - that has driven the quality bar to where it is today. And even today's quality level is not good enough for many. Cut-throat competition forces one to continually improve or go away. Cut-throat competition also tends to lead to reduced profits for spells of time until innovation takes place through product improvement. But profits are maximized by restricting your competition through government actions (currency valuation, import duties, subsidized loans or labor, etc) or other means (exclusive contracts and distribution) that have nothing to do with product improvement. As in other areas of life, it is usually much easier to destroy the knees of your competitor than it is to improve yourself and your standing through hard work and effort.
What has been lost from the mr market place is the middle ground - the kits, the Mantuas, Roundhouse, Varney, and even IHC locomotives fell into this group. Locomotives that had reasonable, but not great, mechanisms, and relatively sparse detail for a significantly lower price than the top end of the day (Japanese and Korean brass then, Chinese plastic and die cast today). These locomotives were upgradeable (with a little skill and patience) into some pretty sweet, and certainly acceptable locomotives.
The bottom end is still with us in the form of Bachmann and Model Power train set stuff. But now, the bottom end is spurned as unfit even for kids. Back then, it was certainly acceptable for Christmas gifts, for kids, and even for many a model railroader on a very limited budget, who would take these items and improve them. No, they couldn't (and can't) become the equivalent of today's top end. But they were marginally functional from the get-go, and served as the poor man's hobby entry point.
Even today, I still look at the "junk" box at my LHS, and pick out a Mantua "Old Time" flat car with stakes, Talgo trucks, and X2F couplers for $2-$3. Or a Bachmann bobber caboose. Most of these are already weighted. Immediately, I cut off the truck mount couplers and replace with body-mounted Kadees. The wheel sets are also replaced - most of the time the trucks are still functional enough to use for a while. Later on, I'll get around to placing the trucks, putting more refined truss rods on, adding brake and other details, and making it a much better model. In the meantime, the "junker" can roll on my layout while I attend to other projects. Not so much different from what I see in the photos in MR or Model Trains from the '50s and '60s.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Sir MadogAbout a year ago, the Bachmann Spectrum 4-6-0 w/DCC & Sound was advertised at $ 184,99 and now the same source sells it for $ 214,99. Compared to the MSRP of $ 360,00, that´s still a bargain, but a steep increase of over 16 % in just one year!
This isn't necessarily inflation or importing or anything like that. I think it is part of a normal cycle of marketing. Look at the LifeLike and BLI examples from the past decade. The companies put their prices up high in the sky on their LIMITED RUN products to see if anyone bites. Some do they make bunches of money. But sometimes people don't. Remember the first Walther's release of the Proto-2000 stuff. Way high, no one bought. Suddenly three months later the prices fell back down to realistic prices. BLI stuff sat in the hobby store shelves for months on end. BLI had to sell stuff so they went wholesale and sold a ton (much to the ire of the hobby stores that had stuff sitting on the shelf they had paid more than BLI was charging direct).
They (Walther's) have just tried this again with their new passenger cars. Prices jumped from an average of about $40 to $60 between the Hiawatha set and the 20th Century. I'm waiting to see if people are really paying that outrageous price or not. If not they will appear on the sales flyers soon (like the Empire Builder cars). I feel sorry for everyone who paid for them when they first came out as now I've seem them for about 1/2 the original price.
I guess I'm saying I think a lot of the high pricing is the gullibility of the consumer. If no one pays the high price - it will come down.
.
One might gripe about the prices of the hobby but look at other hobbies out there and what they cost. You spend $200 on an engine today it will mostly likely be running 20 years from now. Spend $1000 on build and equip an R/C airplane, it could be gone in a matter of minutes. I love sailing and when I had my boat I spent $1500 year to keep it parked at the marina for about 8 months out of the year, and our slip fees around here are a fraction of what someone in Florida would pay. Drop a winch handle over the side, there is another $100. Blow a sail, another $1000 or more And for those of you who love to tinker on old cars, you know the pain. Yes prices go up and one can spend a pile of money on MRR but for the most part our equipement will still be working a lot longer than most the trains we model.
Yes, this is very likely. People often forget that there is the manufacturer's price (under contract), and then a distributor (could be Bachmann themselves, just as an example), and finally the seller., each wanting to build in close to a 100% profit margin. The final selling price, understandably, rises very quickly. And if the distributor is Walthers, who might sell to other distributors/suppliers to LHS's, now you have another tier in the price setting.
I think I can understand why BLI went the route they did over the past three years or so. It may have been contrary to common practices, but they eliminated distribution/re-seller costs that the customer had to absorb, and it may have helped to keep them afloat in tough times. Not sure, though, just guessing.
-Crandell
Milepost 266.2 Sir Madog: the word quality is not existing in the Chinese language, only the word copy No, the Chinese can manufacture items that are equal the quality of any item in the world. The problem is that level of quality costs as much there as it does anywhere else. If you're shopping based solely on price, you're going to suffer the consequences, and the Chinese have no problem cranking out cheap crap if that's all you're willing to pay for.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Milepost - yeah, sure they can, but they are not interested in, unless they see top $ for it. Remember that their background is a communistic economy, where a plan determined the output, and only quantity counted. That thinking is still around.
It finally boils down to "you get what you pay for" - I´d rather pay the premium to my own folks, though!
I think there are several factors here, all working against an affordable hobby.
1. Standard of living and wages are increasing overseas where much of our Model Railroading locomotives and cars are made, as well as, track and other stuff are made.
2. Currency exchange is changing. The U.S. is pressuring China to revalue their currency. While that's good for us as a whole, it's bad for model railroading prices.
3. Since about 2000, Middle class income has not kept up with inflation (recently in many cases, it has actually declined as workers are forced to take pay cuts or furloughs).
4. The quality bar has gone up significantly. Museum quality is now the norm. Good running out of the box is expected.
Unfortunately, I think think this will only get worse going forward.
Paul
Sir Madog the word quality is not existing in the Chinese language, only the word copy
Michael,
Not so long ago, I was able to talk to one of the product managers from one of the leading MRR brands in Germany. They had, and still have, big quality issues with their Chinese sub-contractors. They have resolved it by establishing their own, non-Chinese people, for QA in China. Which, of cause, adds to the cost.
I dare say, if you´d add up all the cost of quality, you might as well move back the production to the US or Germany or .... A lot of renowned companies have already begun to do this.
Whichever way we look at it, we will have to face rising costs in our hobby!
I think it's funny that the Chinese workers are demanding higher wages, yet the quality control is non existent. I don't know how many products I have purchased lately that were defective, I'm always returning things back to the LHS.
If you're gonna jack up the prices on us, at least make sure the stuff works. Geeeeeesh.
Sir Madog Despite being still sizable, the German model railroading community is shrinking year by year, not because of lack of interest, but because of pricing. Show me a parent, who is able to spend $ 1,500 for a Christmas starter set to kindle his son´s/daughter´s interest in trains. I am afraid that I start to see the same trend in the US market.
Despite being still sizable, the German model railroading community is shrinking year by year, not because of lack of interest, but because of pricing. Show me a parent, who is able to spend $ 1,500 for a Christmas starter set to kindle his son´s/daughter´s interest in trains.
I am afraid that I start to see the same trend in the US market.
That's what happened to Lionel toy trains in the U.S.A. over the years, as well. While for decades Lionel was the premier manufacturer of children's toy trains, today it is the manufacturer of mainly collectible, high-end, model trains affordable almost exclusive to only well off adults. Lionel chose to pursue the money. So are today's scale model train manufacturers.
Once regarded as physically the third arm of Christmas in the U.S.A. by both children and adults (the other two being Santa Claus and the Christmas tree), toy electric trains for Christmas are essentially a long vanished element of the holidays for today's kids. And as a result, the ranks of the supposed "next generation" of model railroaders here will be exceedingly thin.
Well, I do sense an overall price increase when I study the ads in MR. Aside from the fact, that people in China begin to demand higher wages for the work they do, I think that importers/manufacturers attempt to reap additional profits. China keeps the exchange rate RMB/USD at an artificially low level to foster exports (and to counteract the wage increases), so that can´t be the reason for the increased prices in the US market.
True, scratch building could be an answer to beat inflation, but not all of us have the means and skills to build a loco.
Germany has been more of a R-T-R market, right from the beginning. A lot of German manufacturers have also turned into importers, having their locos and cars manufactured in China. A Brawa Bavarian State Railway S2/6 4-4-4 steam loco, manufactured at the same plant as the Bachmann Spectrum 4-6-0, with the same level of detail and quality, sells for about $ 620,00 here! Buying a DCC/sound - equipped steamer below a tag of $ 500 is close to impossible. Linn Westcott was right with his statement - you need to be a rich guy to be able to afford that!