I guess it was around 9 months ago there was a heated posting about the Evils of brass track. Part of it was due to the fact I was going to give a friend some brass track to start a layout. Bad Cuda Ken.
With all the negative feed back received about brass track it started me to wondering? If brass track is as bad as reported, why did it not kill the hobby in the 50's and 60's and maybe earlier than that? I have no idea what they where running in the 30's and 40's.
From the way that people post to new people just to throw it away they make it seem like total junk. It is all most like saying ever HO engine out there is junk and won't run so why try. I hope you understand the point I am trying to make.
Never being a person to except the norm Like Tyco Cars are junk and don't waste your time. (took some work put I put them up against any high dollar car out there) I wanted to see for my self how bad Brass Track was!
So it was around January of this year I installed some brass track on my layout. Not a lot, about 4 feet including a Diamond that goes to a seldom used spur, 1.5 foot on a passing spur,1 foot on a main and number 4 turn out on the main line.
I have not done anything as far as extra cleaning on the brass sections than I do on the NS track. (about 300 feet). I have yet to have a engine stall on the seldom used sections. Far as the brass # 4 on the main, anything from a SW 8 to my PCM Big Boy has no problems with running the turnout at speed.
I am adding a new Passenger Station Spur when I am going to add another 2 feet of Brass Track just to make sure.
We might be doing new members a injustices by telling them what they have to start with is junk as far as track. All so a cheap way to get track with brass not selling for shoot on E Stupid.
I know there going to be some naysayers and I am full of Caboose! All I can report is what happen on my layout.
I am running a Digitrax Super Empire Builder with 5 amps and feeders ever 9 foot and none solder rail joiners except on turns.
Parting statement, if Brass is that bad why did it not kill the hobby a few decades ago?
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I agree Ken, I have a few pieces of brass track on my layout, mainly a couple of unique cobblestone grade crossings/rerailers made by AHM years ago. And our huge club layout has several hand laid brass turnouts on the main line and brass track in the yards. Other than a yearly cleaning with a bright boy, weekly running is all it seems to take to keep things running well. Is NS track better, well yes, but if you happen into a load of old brass track, why not use it to get up and running, espicaly if your on a super tight budget like so many of us out here are. What spare $$ I have has been rolled into some good running locomotives and now being saved for a Digitrax Zephyr to run my small layout. As long as it works for the end user, then who has the right to say its bad or wrong? Dont think any of us has that right. All that can really be said is nickel silver is better, requires less cleaning and if purchasing new is the only choice. Mike and Michele T
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Well the reason it didn't kill the hobby is the same reason why problems we have with decoders and dcc systems along with any other problem that comes a long these days is simple because of the model railroaders inherent DNA of being a problem solver. No hobby is trouble free least of all model railroading, we all still encounter problems with turnouts and track work, out of gage wheels and yes even dirty track but we always find solutions.
Brass track really isn't bad it's just that nickle silver is better for one I have never seen brass in anything but code 100 not my cup of tea any more. As far as being an good electrical conductor brass is excellent except when it oxidizes and it will eventually oxidize you can bet your big boy on it. So does N/S for that matter but it's oxidation still conducts electricity hence the major difference/advantage. Another disadvantage is/was that way back when the ties weren't made of plastic but rather some hardboard material if i recall not very stable and definitely not prototypical in the least.
I will respectfully disagree with your statement that
"We might be doing new members a injustices by telling them what they have to start with is junk as far as track. All so a cheap way to get track with brass not selling for shoot on E Stupid."
Yes you can get brass track a lot cheaper and in some cases even free but there is a reason for that, because there is no demand for it, why because the user pool is very small and almost insignificant as compared to the users of n/s track. I completely understand having a lack of funds and trying to get into the hobby but my best advice is if a newbie wants to save money on track simply buy code 100 rather then code 83 code 70 etc. as it's head and shoulders far less expensive then code 83 & 70.. I don't know the chemical whys ans why not of how come your brass track hasn't really tarnished up yet as I have seen boxes of brass track where some pieces are perfectly clean and others are as green as Kermit the frog. you will have to ask the chemist geeks that question.
The biggest plus for nickel silver is that it looks like steel. Some model railroaders think that's important. It WAS the big selling point when nickel silver overwhelmed brass a half-century or so ago. The whole business about brass needing more cleaning came later.
IMHO, brass looks like steel rail that hasn't seen any traffic since the overnight fog lifted. That makes it good for the ends of industrial spurs. I also use it at the bumper ends of my back-in staging tracks. I haven't used it anywhere else, mainly because I ran out - and have ample stocks of N-S track on hand. I still use some otherwise scrap short ends of brass rail to make guard rails.
The few longer lengths of brass rail I still have will be used to represent new welded rail strung out along the right-of-way. That new rail is scheduled to replace the present rail over the first weekend in October. Unfortunately, at midnight on September 30th, the world recycles to 00:01 AM on September 1st. That new rail will never be installed.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Allegheny said "I will respectfully disagree with your statement that"
Cuda Ken said "We might be doing new members a injustices by telling them what they have to start with is junk as far as track. All so a cheap way to get track with brass not selling for shoot on E Stupid."
Reason I have said this Allegheny is I have seen posting where new people where told to throw the brass track away. Why not tell them "give it a good cleaning and see what happens"? Far as telling them to buy Brass Track on E Bay, that was not my intent, it just came out that way.
Far as brass track getting as green as Kermit The Frog, yep the stuff I have was that way. Cleaned it up with a bright boy.
I am with you on liking the color better of the N/S track. All so not that it matters, I do have some code 83 Brass Track so some was made.
By the way, I am not Champing for Brass Track I still prefer N/S.
Well when the price on things keep going up some of us old timers still have that brass track. When a #4 switch is $10 to $15 and you have a half dozen #4 switches that are brass well economics says use them. I have reused several brass switches because of economics. I use them in places of easy access for more maintaince that can be done on them. So Ken you are not the only one using brass track some of us has to use the old stuff too.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
Ken: I once visited a large private layout in Cadillac, Michigan that was totally brass track. The gentleman regularly ran track cleaning cars. He commented that he would use nothing else. The layout ran great. However, I still prefer NS.
The Ferroequinologist layoutconcepts@yahoo.com eBay store: Backshop Train & China Store Facebook: Model Trains, Train Sets, Buildings & Layout Concepts
Ken,
Brass trackage needs regular cleaning. IIRC, you have a 'garage' layout - how often do you clean track? My home layout has all code 100 n/s trackage and I clean it about 4 times/year. I have only metal wheels on my engines/cars - that seems to make a big difference. Our club layout needs to have the trackage cleaned about every two weeks - I think a lot of 'gunk' arrives via members engines/rolling stock.
My first layout had a mixture of brass & n/s trackage(back in the late 60's). It needed a regular cleaning almost every week with a Brite-Boy block. A lot of the engine wheels were brass and most did not have 'all wheel' electrical pickup. Most of my cars had plastic wheels as well. I hate track cleaning almost as much as wheel cleaning. Since cleaning my present layout with a CMX track cleaning car and replacing all plastic wheel sets with metal ones, the track cleaning dropped to the present cycle. None of the metal wheels have been cleaned in over 4 years.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I think that, in principle, Ken is right. We should offer comparative comments in a way to let the prospective brass track user appreciate the possible concerns. NS has these qualities and costs so much, typically, while brass has these issues and is often had at bargain basement prices due to its increasing disfavor. Then let others make up their minds based on the values they assign to the various characteristics or problems.
Someone entering the hobby can find out for themselves that cleaning brass track almost daily is either a pain or just part of the cost of maintaining a functioning model train. Let them develop their orientation as they gain experience with it.
On the other hand, it is probably the polite and inclusive attitude of those who already have discarded brass rails that induces them to caution newbies that their new experiences may not be quite so much fun when they learn that it takes a lot more work to keep brass rails useful.
Bottom line...sure, it works, and can work really well in the right circumstances and with the right orientation to the product. Some don't want to deal with it any longer, and they post why when they answer the question from those who ask it.
-Crandell
Well, I started with brass track almost 40 years ago. It worked fine, even the brass flex track with fiber ties. I bought a 99' bundle of brass code 100 rail some of which I still have.
But it just never looked right to me. So I use N/S now.
But I agree if you have some and your hobby budget is limited why not use it.
Enjoy
Paul
I wonder what would happen if brass rail was treated with either Blacken-It or Weather-It. Has anyone tried that?
Mike
There are 2 areas that nickel silver rail is superior to brass - appearance and oxidation.
Brass rail will give slightly more pulling power for a locomotive than nickel silver. And brass rail conducts better than nickel silver.
The rate of oxidation of brass rail can be really rapid in a warm, humid climate (think hours in Florida without air conditioning) and quite slow in the dry cool (think weeks or months in a Colorado basement). Brass oxide does not conduct, and needs to be removed before power will reach the motor - both the rail and any brass surfaces in the power path such as wheels, truck side frames, bolsters, etc. Gleaming (really a form of polishing), No-Ox, Wahl's Clipper Oil, CRC 2-26, and electrical contact cleaner all help to reduce the rate of new oxidation, once the old has been removed.
Metal wheels rolling (or even better, sliding) have a polishing effect on the rail head. The heavier the car or locomotive, the faster the oxide is broken down through the polishing action. Which is why G brass track does not require near the cleaning in the same climate that HO brass track does. Sharp curves, where the wheels are forced to slide as well as roll, polishes faster than straight track. The net effect of all this is that the layout's environment and how often heavy trains are run over the rails has a lot to do with the practicality of brass rail.
Nickel silver oxidizes too, but not nearly as quickly as brass in the same climate. And as posted, nickel silver oxide is a poor conductor, but not a non-conductor like brass oxide. You can run trains enough to get the polishing started with oxidized nickel silver, but not with oxidized brass rail.
For brass rail to conduct power, it must have the brass-colored gleam at least at the inner rail head corner.
Nickel silver rail can range in color from a silver-gray to an almost brassy yellow tint, depending on the amount of nickel in the alloy. Layout lighting also impacts the perceived color of nickel silver. Incandescent and warm flourescents will tend to bring out the yellow in nickel silver more than sunlight or cool flourescent. Most cheaper silverware is made from nickel silver - you can see the color differences in the alloys there, too.
just my experiences
Fred W
Like so many others I started the hobby years ago and then gradually exited the hobby only to return many years later. I kept quite a bit of my old model railroad equipment MRC power packs, Rivarossi locomotives and passemger cars. Roundhouse locomotives and rolling stock and of course quite a number of Athearn and TM kits. I also kept a few Suydam kits. Oh, and my brass switches.
I had quite a few double slips and crossover switches as well as a number of number 6 switches.
When I returned to the hobby I used the brass switches mainly in one yard area and n/s in my other yard area. I was somewhat apprehensive about using the brass but finances were tight for a while and I thought I could at least give it a try.
Well, that was a couple of years ago and I have had no problems with the brass portion of my layout. I do not clean it more often than the rest of the layout. I only clean the layout extensively, so far once a year. I do run a couple of track cleaning cars every so often. These are the dry type with no liquid cleaner.
My rolling stock all has metal wheels. My layout is built in the family room so is not subject to any variances that you would find with a basement or garage layout.
I have no reason to take out the brass yard and replace with n/s. As to the colour I do not mind.
fwright There are 2 areas that nickel silver rail is superior to brass - appearance and oxidation. Metal wheels rolling (or even better, sliding) have a polishing effect on the rail head. The heavier the car or locomotive, the faster the oxide is broken down through the polishing action. Which is why G brass track does not require near the cleaning in the same climate that HO brass track does. Sharp curves, where the wheels are forced to slide as well as roll, polishes faster than straight track. The net effect of all this is that the layout's environment and how often heavy trains are run over the rails has a lot to do with the practicality of brass rail. just my experiences Fred W
Fred's got it. And it's true in the real world as well. The weeks before Indiana Transportatiom runs Fairtrian (ten trains a day for 17 days) they run what they call rust-buster trains, and that's simply to scrape the rust down by running trains, so that the crossing circuits en- and disengage properly. A rusted crossing either won't come on (and we don;t have the time to flag 10 trains going each way through a crossing) or it won't shut off (which makes drivers think it's safe to weave, or some cop gets steamed becasue his roads ain't moving).. The other 9 months of the year, that trackage doesn't see use.
And because I'm full of useles info, some crossings have a stainless steel strip on them, which don't rust, and will conduct the circuit for the crossing rain or shine.
-Morgan
I still have a dozen or so brass turnouts from the late 50's on the layout.....still work fine...and they don't oxidize and need cleaning much more than nickel silver.......
As for what was used in the 30's and 40's....... brass on fibre, held with a "staple" type pin. I still have one siding with this stuff........just to show newcomers what we worked with up through the mid 50's............and even when they see it, they don't believe it!
Jim, yes you are right. My layout is in a climate control garage. Far as cleaning, I do run at leas one cleaning car on each main line all the time. So I understand why my track stays clean on the main.
But on the spur and the Diamond where the bulk of the brass track is. They don't get cleaned because I don't uses them much. The diamond till last night has not seen a train for a month.
One thing I do wonder, could the fact I run my layout as much as I do. Could the fact the Brass Track has power keep it cleaner? Not the trains running over it, put just the power it self?
I think I will dig through my code 83 Brass Track and see if I still have the code 100 to code 83 joiners. Might just make all of the new spur Brass just to see what happens.
Thanks for all the answers and time. I glad to see i am not the only one with some brass track as well.
Ken
As I often said before there is nothing wrong with brass track..I especially liked the thin fiber ties because you could bury them with cinders,dirt and weeds on industrial sidings or switching layouts.
Also brass wheels on brass track gave you more tractive effort then nichol silver wheels on nicol silver track...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My last layout was a bit of an experimental setup. I had 2 loops one brass and one ns. The verdict: functionally no clear advantage to either. Let's face it, track is track and dirt is dirt, tracks will need cleaned at some point. Biggest difference I noted was after changing to metal wheels on rolling stock, wow cleaning dropped off dramatically.
I kind of preferr the coloring of most brass track compared to ns, the brownish coloring look more like rusty steel than the grayish of ns. If you plan on painting the rails then this is no concern.
Why does brass get such a bad rap? Well technology has moved on from way back when and the way we treat the track has gotten much better. Yes brass can turn green but think about what modelers do to it: paints of various compunds, glues/water/alcohol for balast, and cleaning methods/solevents again alcohol. Some of the materials and methods we used to use are pretty horrific. Alcohol is reactive and causes corrosion so does water, add a little elctricity and galvanic reactions are the norm.
Either way careful treatment of the rails goes a long way to keeping things functional. I dont use alcohol or a bright boy to clean track. A heavily oxidized/dirty section may get hit with 800 grit or finer sandpapr, I run a standard pink eraser over the track, vacuum the pink ballast then a quick wipe with a soft lint/nap free rag that has a bit of WD40 on it. I still need to build an old school track cleaning car (masonite pad under a weighted boxcar)
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
sandusky I wonder what would happen if brass rail was treated with either Blacken-It or Weather-It. Has anyone tried that? Mike
Simpler is to merely brush paint the sides of the rail with rust or rail brown. The sides of the rail are as visible as the rail heads, and painting them rust color makes a big improvement in the looks. By dulling down the shiny rail, paint makes the rail look smaller and closer to scale. I used old code 100 track on my layout and painting the rail made it look like code 83. I'm sure that painted brass track will look better than out-of-the-box shiny nickel silver.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I posed this question because I thought the finish of the blacken-it was conductive, although if I indeed did read that it was many years ago; and because I have no-first hand experience with this stuff. This is why I asked if anyone had done it, not to solicit simpler alternatives.
I think we're forgetting that in those earlier days, the majority of the loco wheels were either brass or Athearn's sintered iron, both of which arced, (sparked), a lot and it was the wheels that got dirty more than the track.That was what caused most of the problems. I can remember having to scrape the gunk off the wheels in those days or the trains just didn't run. With the hobby's conversion to n/s wheels on locos most of the problems with brass track really went away as the n/s wheels are much less susceptable to arcing even on brass track and virtually non-existant combined with n/s track.
Even after I converted to n/s track, it wasn't until I converted all the Athearn BB locos to n/s wheels, (and got rid of all the brass wheeled locos), that track and wheel cleaning was noticebly reduced to two times a year for track and hardly ever for wheels, (and I still run about 75% plastic wheels on freight cars - they're a lot quieter and unless they cause problems, I don't see any reason to change them, I have better things to spend my money on).
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Well Jay, that sure is a different point of view. Could very well explain why some of us are not having problems with Brass Track these days. Thank you for your insight on the subject.
Far as plastic wheels being a cause of the track getting dirty. I am with you, think it is another myth. I replaced 75% of my rolling stock wheels with PK 2000's. Track stayed no cleaner than when I was running plastic.
On plastic wheels, in the days when I was still running with Athearn sintered iron wheels, there was more crap on the tracks and the plastic wheels did get caked up along with the loco wheels, but once all loco wheels were n/s, I no longer had a problem with the plastic wheels.
For Pete's sake
Brass is fine as track.
You just have to realize it's draw backs
1) The color isn't right for steel
2) It will tarnish a lot quicker which lowers conductivity
3) Even when polished, it doesn't conduct as well.
4) Modern track is more within specification to NMRA guiddelines than older track. And all brass track is older.
Is it junk? Nope. It's the vast majority of the stuff we use at our club still. But there are better alternatives.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Well draw backs or not, the prices was right!
Simon 1966 and I went to the Boeing Train show today. I was looking for two used N/S turn outs. All I saw was what I thought where over priced at $8.00 $10.00 each. Then I found the mother load.
I got 10 R and 9 left numbers 4's for $10.00 with there switch motors. If anyone wants the motors, let me know, I don't use them. In fact, if you need a turnout let me know, like I can uses 19 of them.