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4-6-4 VS 4-8-4 is there that much differance?

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4-6-4 VS 4-8-4 is there that much differance?
Posted by icemanrulz on Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:25 PM

 Hi all!

I am looking for a steam loco.  I am looking at the Broadway Limited Paragon 2 units. Our layout has mostly 22" + radius curves.  There is one that may go to the small side of 18 or 19 in part of the turn (end of layout loop)  We wanted a Y6b but think the overhang will be too much,  

So looking at the BLT J1e Hudson 4-6-4 but cannot find it in stock anywhere,  Then we see the T1 4-8-4 Reading ...  being noobs at most of this we are wondering if the Reading will work?  On a 20 " R turn how much stick out and overhang will there be?

Anyone have pics frome above on a smallish curve,

Reall wish the Y6b would work...but have to be a bit realistic...

 

 

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:10 PM

 I have 2 of them. I don't think they'll take 20" and smaller radius. I have 24" radius, they handle that fine. My previous layout was 30 and 32", and naturally there was no problem. With tight curves I'd stick to smaller locos. The key factor is the length of the rigid wheelbase - a smaller loco like a 2-8-2 light mike still has 8 drive wheels but they are smaller than the ones on the T-1 and so the distance from the flange of the first driver to the last is shorter.

 It's not so much the overhang, which just looks silly, it's the ability of the loco to even go around the curves in question without derailing or becomign so bound up it stalls. The old AHM/Rivarossi Y6b, and even the Big Boy, could handle 18" radius curves but looked extremely silly. The newer models from other manufacturers might not quite make the 18" curves, but such large locos need somewhere north of 30" to even begin to look 'normal'. FOr steam power with 18" radius curves your best bet is probably one of the smaller locos from Bachmann, the nice Spectrum ones, like the 4-4-0 and 2-6-0.

                                            --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by grizlump9 on Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:50 PM

 randy hit the nail on the head.  even though lateral motion is a big factor, rigid wheel base is usually what determines minimum radius and that really comes in to play where the tangent makes the transition to curve.  easements will allow you to get away with a smaller radius curve and help eliminate that "lionel style quick!, turn left here" jerky operation.

grizlump

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:19 PM

On 460mm (18"+) radius ANY locomotive with a 4-wheel trailing truck is going to have a lot of cab overhang.  What you really need is a Pacific (or a Mike, if your railroad used them for passenger power.)

If I was looking for passenger power for curves that tight, I'd try to find a PRR E6 or G5.  Too bad Bowser discontinued theirs...

(My short line, which has much tighter curves, powers almost everything with 0-6-0Ts.)

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by mobilman44 on Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:55 PM

Hi!

I've got a BLI ATSF 4-8-4 and frankly, its my favorite loco (I have well over 50).  My minimum radius where it is "allowed" on the layout is 26 inches.  It negotiates that just fine, but it is too small for realistic looking operation.  

You are asking about a 4-6-4 and a 4-8-4.  The 4-6-4 Hudson was pretty much a passenger loco with large drivers.  The 4-8-4 Northern was both passenger and freight and had large drivers as well.  Neither will look good on 22 inch curves - in my opinion of course.

Having had a layout with 22 inch curves years ago, I would suggest that you would be much happier with a 2-8-0 loco (Bachmann SPECTRUM is a very good choice) as it will look and operate much better on your layout - and cost significantly less than the big BLI locos.

Hey, for what its worth.....

Mobilman44 

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by dinwitty on Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:03 PM
4-6-4's were more for passenger runs, the 4-8-4's for freight but also hauled passenger. Engines like a 2-8-4 or 2-8-2 would be more suitable for a more mainline but smaller steam. For an articulated the Bachmann 2-6-6-2 is a good candidate, I would even run it on 15". I think the BLI Y6b can do 18".
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Posted by icemanrulz on Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:41 PM

 Thanks.  I am not so worried about looks as I am about clearance.  I have over 320 feet of track and only maybe 10 feet of it is part of a "tight" turn.  You have to do what you have to do with the room...all my other turns are30 to 40+"R  Of the two turns (double main line) only the 22" plus one is seen.  The other is a hidden loop inside a mountain this is where clearance is an issue..

   I just don't like the looks of the smaller ones that much...   and I like the evil option of having smoke too.  Not to mention the awesome sound of the BLI's

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by Allegheny2-6-6-6 on Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:44 PM

 Believe it or not the better choice or should i say the one that will negotiate your curve best would be the Y6 being as has an articulated or hinged frame would work with no problem other then overhang issue. You can adjust for that by moving sign posts and telegraph poles etc. a little farther outward on curves.

It too depends on the brand of locomotive also. Some manufactures have more then one set of  flange-less wheels then others do therefor making them more "universal" if you will for all radius curves.

If you look at the product information section on BLI's website  you will see that the T1 will operate on 18" curves and the Y6B on 18" curves. So I would say it's a safe bet with either the Y6B or the Reading T1 if you so choose.

I have at present time 4 running PRR M1's very similar to the Reading T1 as far as wheel arrangement goes  and although i have a minimum radius or 34" on the pike in the one large yard being it's L shaped I have two track with 15" radius curves and the M1's will negotiate them fine at low speed (scale 5 mph) but I don't recommend it being done any faster.

Just my 2 cents worth, I spent the rest on trains. If you choked a Smurf what color would he turn?
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Posted by dinwitty on Monday, August 23, 2010 9:18 AM
You might be safe with the Y6, if you have an NMRA gauge, sweep it around your curve with issues, if it doesnt hit anything, your good to go. If you have any 85ft passenger cars, try them as a test. Because of the double hinging, the boiler front does not swing out as far, instead, the cab swings out a little further, this is more apparent on my BLI 2-6-6-4. I have the Bowser Big Boy and it has the prototypical rigid rear driver, and the boiler front swings way out on curves. Bowser says if you watch the NMRA clearance, its not an issue.
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Posted by cudaken on Monday, August 23, 2010 11:21 AM

Stryker I have PCM Y6-b and from what I have been told they are the same casting as the BLI. I all so happen to have 2 18 inch tuns left. If you like, I could take a picture of the over hang for you. Where the 18 inch turns are located I normally don't see it running there.

 The Y6 really is not that big of a engine but sure pulls like one. Maybe a inch longer than a Class J.

                 Cuda Ken

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Posted by icemanrulz on Monday, August 23, 2010 2:01 PM

That would be great  Please do!

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by cudaken on Monday, August 23, 2010 4:57 PM

 Stryker If I have not posted the pictures by noon Tuesday PM me. I have been busy adding a new passing spur today. Now it is time to BBQ.

 If it will clear you will love the Y6 b

                     Ken

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Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:26 AM

Stryker here you go.

 First a PCM Big Boy

 

 Then the PCM Y6b

 

 Next a BLI M1a 

 And a BLI Hudson

 If you need more pictures let me know.

                    Cuda Ken

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Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:29 AM

  If you need measurements let me know.

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Posted by icemanrulz on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:05 AM

Ken,

   Thanks!

 

It looks like it hardly sticks out past where the roadbed would be.  The Y6b would work fore sure.  The hudson looks very good to me.  What is the radius on that curve? 

Wait I see you were going to shoot at your 18".  Any of these would work for me.

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:52 AM

  I can all so shoot a picture of a 18" turn that does have roadbed. If the new BLI Y6 b are 3/4 of the engine my PCM is, they are great engines.

 

           Cuda Ken

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Posted by icemanrulz on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 12:03 PM

Then Please Do!  I am sure many other people would benifit from that also.

Thanks

 

PS  great shot!

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:05 PM

  Glad you like the Y6 picture not all of my layout is green outdoor carpet.

  I will get on the other pictures Wednesday.

  Are you going to get the Y6 b?

                  Ken 

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Posted by icemanrulz on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:10 PM

 Yes!  Then when I have the money : http://www.broadway-limited.com/2145readingt14-8-4ironhorserambleexcursion2102paragon2sounddcdccho.aspx

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by 1948PRR on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:19 PM

If you like the Y6, you should also consider the Proto Y3 2-8-8-2.

They are beautiful and on sale.

Mine is a first run from pre 2000, and runs fabulous.

It easily goes through #4 and snap switches and has negotiated 20" radius without a hiccup and without too much overhang. Arguably less than a Y6, given the 2 wheel trailing truck.

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Posted by cudaken on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 7:55 PM

 

1948PRR
It easily goes through #4 and snap switches and has negotiated 20" radius without a hiccup and without too much overhang. Arguably less than a Y6, given the 2 wheel trailing truck.

 1948, the Y6 b all so has a 2 wheel trailing truck. From what I have read here, the PK steam engines do not pull great. Far as deatil, one of the reasons I never bought a PK Y3. My LHS has one so I have seen one in person. It's detail seems to be lacking compared to the Y 6. It may very well be accurate, but looks a little bland when compared.    

Stryker sorry I did not get the pictures taken today. I felt like Caboose today.

         Ken

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Posted by Hamltnblue on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:05 PM

The BLI Y6B wont disappoint for sure. It will work on 18 inch radius and pulls like a mule.  It's a heavy one since the boiler is made of cast and not plastic like the other BLI's.  I think the reason it tracks on tight track so well is the size of the drivers. They seem short in comparison with the other loco's mentioned. This gives it good torque but also allows the wheels to be closer and shortening the wheel base of the 2 articulated driver sections.

Here's 2 pics of mine on a 22 inch curve which isn't far off of an 18.

Springfield PA

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Posted by icemanrulz on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:19 PM

 Hey Ken, no worries.  Beggars (me) can't be choosers.

Looks fine on a 22 to me!

Thanks

Got mine ordered!

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by icemanrulz on Friday, August 27, 2010 9:04 PM

 Got it! 

It handles all my turns with no problems at all.

I have 1 switch (atlas #4) that the front two wheels don't like much.

That has to be a track problem...I not the greatest at laying track... not to mention I do not have anything holding the frogs yet...

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by Hamltnblue on Friday, August 27, 2010 9:32 PM

Oops forgot to warn you.

If you have the Broadway limited one there is a black piece of foam in the front between the boiler and truck that has to be removed. There is a technical bulletin on it.  If you don' remove it the front section will not move freely and derail. I found out the hard way.

Here's a link to the tech bulletin with pics of the foam.

http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/Paragon2%20Y6b%20Technical%20Bulletin.pdf

 

Springfield PA

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Posted by cudaken on Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:37 AM

 Dang Stryker, you got it in 2 days?

 How about some pictures?

                       Cuda Ken

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Posted by icemanrulz on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:47 PM

Working on getting some pictures this weekend.  Have house guests so not getting much "cave time".

Thanks Stryker
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Posted by BerkshireSteam on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 11:26 AM

How about a layout using small 15-18R curves (with easements)? Ha! confused you all.

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Posted by CTValleyRR on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 8:21 PM

Um, Duh!  2 drivers!  Should be obvious to anyone!

Sorry!  Couldn't resist!  Devil

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Posted by icemanrulz on Thursday, September 9, 2010 5:55 PM

Well I have pics...but now I need to host them.  So that may take some time.Sad

Thanks Stryker

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