I was looking through my magazines for an article I think I remember from some point in the last 10 years. It was about adding dual motors and extra weight to a RPP SD70 or something similar. I am considering doing the same thing in HO and would like to look at the article for reference. Anybody else know the article? Not sure which magazine it was in.
Secondly, has anyone done this in a diesel locomotive in HO and is it worth the work and extra motor?
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
I did it to a couple of Athearns. One was a new SD45T-2 it had a messed up motor right out of the box. The armature was hitting the magnets. I put two Cannon can motors I had bought on Ebay. They worked nice, I was able to solder them back to back with there wire tabs. And both motors stalled at 13vlts only pulled 3/4 of an amp so finding a decoder for them was no problem . I had to mill down the sides of the frame where the motors would sit down in the motor saddle so drive shafts would line up. could not use Athearn drive line on motors so I used weedwacker 2cycle silicon fuel line. It is thick, tough and does not twist apart as one might think. I used ca on the motor side to hold it in place and just pushed on the drive lines coming from the trucks. The other loco I did is an older Blue box tunnel motor. I wished I could post the pictures. But for some reason I am not having any luck. I see other guys posting pictures. Anyway the locos run great pulling power is awsome. For me it was worth it. Iwished I could post pics to show off some of my work. Nobody here cares. The wife "nice honey", The kids "cool dad can you make them crash"
Truck.
I used two motors when I did a total repower of an old Bachmann DD40X with Athearn trucks. Having a second motor really does give a good boost in torque. My Bowser 4-4-4-4 and IHC GG-1 came with dual motors, and they're both very strong runners.
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Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
I put dual motors in three Athearn U-boats. I don't recall having to do any frame modifications, but any that may have been done would have been with a mill file and/or hacksaw. The motors, from Mashima, were mounted using silicone caulking, and are connected electrically but not physically. I used the stock Athearn drivetrain, shortening components as required., with NWSL 1152-4 brass bushings to increase the motors' 1.5mm shaft diameter to Athearn's 3/32".
I also discarded the flywheels in favour of adding more weight, custom-casting ones in lead to bring the weight up to just over 33 ounces per unit. Had I kept them, there was still room to add probably another 5 or 6 ounces.
Since I run DC, I didn't have to waste any internal space on decoders or lighting circuits - these were meant to pull heavy trains and did so very capably.
Wayne
Bundy74 ....It was about adding dual motors and extra weight to a RPP SD70 or something similar.... Secondly, has anyone done this in a diesel locomotive in HO and is it worth the work and extra motor?
....It was about adding dual motors and extra weight to a RPP SD70 or something similar....
Is there a particular goal(s) you have for the second motor?
The reason I ask is that in most cases, greater benefits to smooth slow speed running and pulling power come from using an appropriate single motor, appropriate gearing, and weighting to the maximum (provided total model weight is centered over the driving wheels). Most HO model locomotives have their pulling power limited by weight, and not by motor torque. Usually, the safe maximum weight is determined by ensuring the drive wheels start slipping before the maximum continuous current rating of the motor is reached.
A second motor weighs less than the same volume of lead, depleted uranium, tungsten, or even pig iron. A second motor tends to "fight" the first due to slight differences in the motor itself, friction levels in the gearbox, and so on. The "fighting" often leads to a slightly higher minimum speed than would otherwise be the case with a single motor.
Situations where a second motor might be favored would be truck-mounted motor and gearing, where supporting long drive shafts is problemmatic, where independent slipping of driver sets is desired (articulated steam locomotives), and where a single motor of appropriate torque and RPM will not fit.
If the motor is the one you want, and the speed range is not what you want, changing the gear reduction is perhaps the better choice as compared to changing the motor.
None of this is to say two motors won't work - they can and do. It's just that an appropriate single motor installation will be even better in most HO locomotives.
hope this helps
Fred W
doctorwayne, how did you cast those weights in your Athearns? I have a can motor powered F7 without the super weight, and it's so light that it barely holds to the track as it is.
There's a "how-to" HERE, although you won't be able to see the photo illustrations unless you're a member.
First of all the locomotives Im considering are Athearn BB six axle units (C44-9W, SD40T-2, and F45), and the goal is because I feel that they should be noticeably stronger than my 4 axle units. I also would like to be able to run semi-prototypical length trains on something other than flat table tops. I am also lucky in the fact that the three 6-axles were purchased as dummies, so the entire powertrain is up to me, and I'm not removing anything. The concerns mentioned in all the responses here were ones I had as well, and I also considered adding enough weight to increase the pulling power.
These responses have helped. While I still want to try the dual motor installation, I'll also mess around with adding extra weight to improve traction.
Fred's point about a single good-quality motor probably being sufficient for most diesels is correct. I did my three units just to see how well it would work, and I was quite happy with the results. Low speed control is very good and current draw is low, although I didn't test it at stall. If physically restrained, all units will readily slip their wheels. The motors used are about the widest which would fit, width-wise, in the old, over-width Athearn shell. Had I been modifying a cab unit, I would have opted for a single larger motor, and there still would have been ample room to add more weight. As it is, the U-boats are definitely over-powered and still would be had I added the additional weight. A pair of them easily pulled a 48 car loaded coal train up my winding 2.5% grades and would have pulled more but I ran out of coal with which to load the hoppers. Total train weight was about 26lbs. I do have enough other freight cars to make a much longer train, but with most of the layout being on both grades and curves, thought it best to not risk dumping most of them to the concrete floor of the layout room.
This brass steamer, modified for a friend, was back-heavy due to the large can motor installed by the previous owner. While it runs smoothly, its pulling power was limited by the fact that the weight wasn't balance around the mid-point of the driver wheelbase, even with the stock boiler weight in place.
After adding a cast brass Kemtron (PSC) all-weather cab, the imbalance was even worse, so I melted down the original weight and cast a new one that extends from the front of the smokebox to around the mid-point of the driver wheel base. All of the air tanks are lead-filled brass tubing, too, but I still didn't have to add a great deal of weight to the back half of the loco to get it balanced. Despite the large Sagami can motor, this loco is at its weight limit - the drivers will slip when the loco is restrained, but not wildly. I'd remove some of the weight if it was easier to get at, but since the owner seldom operates the loco and never at anything approaching its capabilities, this shouldn't cause a problem. Total weight, loco only, is 32 ounces.
Thanks for the "how to" link. Your method is more complex than what I have the tools and supplies for, so I just went ahead and used a much simplified (and very crude!) process of my own. I took a big sheet of aluminum foil, folded it over a few times, and bent it into a tray of the shape I wanted. Then I put a bunch of lead shot balls in and melted them directly with a blow torch. It's nowhere near as clean as what you did, but it works for me. My F7 is super heavy now, and the sheer mass makes it run very smoothly.
Darth Santa FeThanks for the "how to" link. Your method is more complex than what I have the tools and supplies for, so I just went ahead and used a much simplified (and very crude!) process of my own. I took a big sheet of aluminum foil, folded it over a few times, and bent it into a tray of the shape I wanted. Then I put a bunch of lead shot balls in and melted them directly with a blow torch. It's nowhere near as clean as what you did, but it works for me. My F7 is super heavy now, and the sheer mass makes it run very smoothly.
You're most welcome. Sometimes one person's method is useful only to suggest a solution more appropriate to another's resources. I'm glad yours worked out well, and it now provides an alternative for others, too.
i think it was rmc.the engine was a rpp sd90
I did the RPP SD90 with the dual motors and a lot of weight and while it ran great and could pull a ton of cars, it did not play well with others, it was either being pushed or pulled by any other locos I MUed with it.
Instead I standardized the weights of my locos; 1600 to 2000 hp got 16 to 18 oz, 4 axle above 2000hp got 18 to 22 oz, 6 axle units got 22 to 30 oz (SD9 - 22oz, SD40s- 24-26oz, SD80/90 - 28-30oz). I also have a pair of TigerValley ALCo C-628s that weigh in at around 36oz each, that'll pull the sheetrock off the walls.
It works quite well for me, 5 RS-3s, pull the same as 4 U-23Bs, as do 3 SD40-2s, as do 2 SD80MACs. I also like the look of multiple units pulling trains rather than 1 single unit.
Bundy74 I also would like to be able to run semi-prototypical length trains on something other than flat table tops.
Bundy74, how many cars are you wanting to pull? With this post you remind me of my self when I got started, pulling power was ever thing! On my home bench I finally got to 64 cars, that is one long train in HO. The hard part was not the engines, but keeping that big of a train on the track around turns. But that is a different subject.
One really good motor and weights might serve you better, but I all so understand wanting dual motors with me being a Gear Head.
As a case in point of a single motor and heavy engine pulling like heck is my Y6 b and Big Boy. Each engine weights around 2 pounds and will pull 70 to 100 cars. Y6 b pulled 70 cars up 2% grades at my LHS / Club. Now 16 drive wheels did not hurt any either.
When you get them up and running, try wheel weights that are used to balances tires on cars. I use the self sticking kind. Besides sticking them on the chassis, I all so stuck them to the inside of the shell. Before I went DCC, I had some of my BB engines up to 30 to 40 cars.
Good luck and looking forward to hearing about what you have done.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I don't have a set number per se, but I live near Palmer, MA, and the CSX freights that pass on the B&A are usually 2-3 6-axle units with 80-100 cars. Now I don't necessarily plan to pull 100 car trains, but I feel like that ratio encompasses most of the freights I've seen (minus unit trains). I figure one midrange 4-axle roadswitcher should handle about 20-25 cars max, while the average 6-axle should handle 30-40 cars max.
To be straightforward, I haven't even completely settled on the type of railroad Im going to model, but I keep coming back to something along the lines of a regional, mid-size, shortline feel, single track main line, and New England-y (NECR,P&W,VRS,etc...). If it comes down to it, my budget is somewhat tight, and I would think extra weight would be much cheaper than a second motor.
Thanks for all the input!
In the model train world, we generally have to selectively compress our scenery and buildings and track plans to fit into the real world, the space we have available for our layouts. I have a 12x23 foot double decked layout. If I were to run 100 car trains, the engines would just about be coupling to the end of the train! I have run a 95 car train just to see how many I could hook up before the cars started falling over in the curves (stringlining) with my 32 and 34 inch radius mainline curves. Radius is another facter with really long trains.
To keep things in proportion with the layout size, I have a rule of thumb, 4 axle locos may pull 10-15 cars, 6 axle locos may pull 15 to 20 cars. So 3 4-axle locos might be pulling 30-45 cars, while 3 6-axle locos might pull 45-60 cars. Now this isn't the actual maximum these locos can pull, but it keeps things in proportion with the size of the layout. And it takes a while for a 60 car train to go by at scale speed and it looks cool.
I do just as the real life railroads do, keep adding more locos, rather than trying to run one loco at maximum. It also gives me an excuse to fatten my roster.
" mce_src="">Well here is the blue box tunnel motor, I also added ditch lights " mce_src="">Here is the Athearnn ready to run, Huh It did not run good enough original motor was junk so it got two motors also." mce_src="">" mce_src="">
Looks sweet there Truck. On the Athearn RTR, had you ever tried NCE decoders? I have 3 Athearn RTR that I pulled from services because they ran like junk with Digitrax decoders. They sat for 2 years. Installed NCE D15SR in them, played with CV 2, CV 116 and CV117. My goodness, you would think I re motored them! They run as good as my PK's and my engines with Mashima motors.
As you can tell I am still trying to figure out the picture posting, that was my first go of it. And for the digitrax decoders. I run them at 128 speed step and I believe I have the start voltage on both of them set at 10. And they just start to crawl at speed step 1.With the original Athearnn motors start voltage would have to be set around 30 and they still would'nt move till you got to speed step15 or 20. Recently for just basic decoders I only buy TCS, they are awsome.
TruckAs you can tell I am still trying to figure out the picture posting, that was my first go of it.
As you can tell I am still trying to figure out the picture posting, that was my first go of it.
To better organise the pictures within your post, space down after the text before inserting the link to the picture, then space down again to add either another picture or more text.
The size of the pictures do not look right neither do you guys resize them? If you do what size do you use? I noticed on Photobucket the resizing options.
I put the photos directly into photobucket at their original size, and they're automatically re-sized to the version which appears here. I can't locate any place where I'm given an option on what that size can be, though.
If I click on your thumbnail images, I get the larger version within your photobucket album, which also allows access to the rest of your pictures there.
When I wish to add a photo, I first click on the thumbnail of the photo I want (to give me the enlarged version), then click on the "IMG Code" line of data, which automatically copies the photo. Then, in the composition window here, I place the cursor where I want the picture to appear (at the left margin and spaced down from any text or other photo), then right click and hit "PASTE" to get this:
I can also, instead, click on the "IMF Thumb" line of data and end up with this version:
Viewers can click on the thumbnail for a slightly larger version (that doesn't allow access to any of my other photos), but it's my opinion that people who like to view photos are drawn more to larger ones. This Forum already resizes your picture to a smaller-than-original size anyway, and the individual can decide if they wish to click on the "View full-size image" bar or not.
I think I am getting the hang of it