Kadees all the way. almost everything else is junk (the new protomaxes are okay)
I have thought about going with segents, but the lack of remote uncoupling is a big deterence to me.. The ability to couple and uncouple on curves was something I do wish the Kadee was capable of, but it may be possible by ommiting the centerin
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
I use Kadee couplers. At this point, I've got almost all of my freight and passenger cars converted to Kadee #5s or similar, and I think I have #58s on about 75% of me engines. The Kadees just look and work better than the other brands of couplers. However, I will keep McHenry scale-sized couplers on anything that came with them, because they look about as good as Kadee couplers and work about as well. And according to Model Railroader's review, the McHenry scale couplers are strong enough to pull a 1,000 car train before bending out of shape!
_________________________________________________________________
I'm gonna pull up anothe rpoint from the mid-thread recap: Everyone menations having to fiddle with the Sergents to get best results. 99% of this is referring to the kit version. As yet, Sergent has not rolled out a bulk pack of pre-assembleds, but the assembled couplers have not required the aforementioned break-ins that the kit couplers did. Also, I left the spring out entirely on mine. But then, I'm not running 50car trains yet. A friend of mine however, is, and he's only had one fail once the entire time he's owned them, and that was due to an assembly error I believe on his part.
I will highlight one other issue with Sergents: That magnetic wand, like metal. And it WILL find loose hand grabs, and pull them out...
trainsBuddySergent couplers can't be used with passenger cars.
dehusmanSargents may be difficult to use on passenger equipment with diaphrams since the top of the coupler will be in accessible. Kadees can be uncoupled with a magnet from below.
Very shortly, that will no longer be correct. Sergent is coming out with the Type H passenger couplers required by Amtrak, and is working on a flat-head magnet that will work under the diaghrams.
Also, one other coupler has been ignored here. These are sold by Sergent, though I don't think they are Sergent's coupler. And that is: The Rotary. Yes, it's a plastic dummy knuckle, but unit coal trains don't uncouple very often, and it DOES turn.
-Morgan
Hi!
I started in HO in 1960 or '61. The NMRA coupler was pretty much all that was readily available at the time - at least to this teenager on a limited budget. In the early '70s I moved gradually (as I could afford it) to KDs, and by the mid-'70s all cars and most locos were converted. Yes, I had to have a couple of cars with a KD on one end and an NMRA on the other for those locos I couldn't convert.
In the last 10 years, I've had cause to try all of the other major players in the coupler market. Some were better than others, but the only ones that stood the test of time (and my patience) were the KDs. Today, every loco (60 plus) and every car (400 plus) has KDs when they hit the layout.
I am not badmouthing the others, nor am I saying there are none better. But I am saying that KDs are readily available for all (in my experience) situations, are reasonably priced, and do the job quite well.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Kadee rules on my RR.
Russell
Will say this about Sergent couplers, they do look very nice on a supper detailed freight car and are more than twice the price of Kadee's. But for my 30 year old roster of Athearn and other makes of freight cars having cast on grab irons and ladders, the Kadee's look just fine. Once the Kadee's are carefully painted rusty looking, they blend in well. I use a pic to uncouple, and the trip pins are cut off of my rolling stock fleet. For my unit trains I use dummy couples as the trains are not for switching except the end cars have Kadee's.
I use almost all Kadee #158, and a few #148.
John
Model RR is Good I wonder how much of the trip pin you can cut off, to shorten it, until the coupler no longer works over a magnet?
I wonder how much of the trip pin you can cut off, to shorten it, until the coupler no longer works over a magnet?
IIRC, there was an article way back when in MR about epoxying or soldering 2 trip pins together and reversing the trip pin to locate it behind the locomotive pilot or wrap around the closest axle of the truck or pilot truck of the locomotive. Again, from memory, this only works with "scissors style" Kadee couplers of which the #711 and #714 are examples. I believe there are/were scissors styles in the regular HO line as well (the old #6, 7, 8 for example).
The elongated trip pins were successfully used by an HOn3 group that was struggling with trip pin interference and appearance issues. I have never tried this myself, but have kept this in mind as an option should I need/want it. Perhaps somebody else can recall the article and issue.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I switched to Sergents a year ago and have never looked back. I model Proto 87 and I have never had any problems with Sergents. They aren't really "finicky." Once you get the hang of coupling/uncoupling, they operate just fine. But I chose Sergent couplers for very specific reasons, which may or may not work for you:
1. For appearance, the Sergents worked better for my Proto 87 layout, as I place more importance on uber-realistic appearance than anything else. You may place more importance elsewhere.
2. I do not share my equipment, run it on a club, or swap it with anybody. No one comes over to my house to run his equipment on my layout. So as a "lone wolf" modeler, the compatibility issue doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about making sure my stuff runs on another layout, or couples with another person's equipment.
3. I have a small roster of cars (about 60) and locomotives (5). Therefore, the cost to switch over was not prohibitive. I model a branch line, so my equipment needs are fewer than if I modeled, say, three Class I railroads, a major yard, etc. For you (or anyone else, for that matter), switching to Sergents may be cost prohibitive if you have 400 cars and 150 locos. The decision worked for me because I don't need/want a large roster of equipment. Your mileage may vary.
4. My layout is a shelf, with all switching/coupling within easy reach. No need for magnets. One thing about the Sergents, you have to align the couplers (there is no "centering spring" like the Kadees have) just like the prototype, so this can slow down operations and make switching more realistic. Again, this is something I found appealing. Others may not care for it.
So for me, the Sergents have worked perfectly. I recommend them. I have never had any problems with them, and I've found them to be just as reliable as Kadees. But to each his own--my choices certainly wouldn't appeal to everybody. But reliability shouldn't really factor in to your decision--the Sergents are fine.
Model RR is GoodI wonder how much of the trip pin you can cut off, to shorten it, until the coupler no longer works over a magnet?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Model RR is Good So far it seems that the majority here say Kadees are easier to use and more dependable. Some guys have too many in use to change now and Sergents look better but are finicky, take more time and patience, and cumbersome with the "stick" needed to reach over and uncouple them rather than with the Kadee magnet anywhere in the tracks. Reading all that, I would say that Kadees, which are really all I ever used in the past, seem to be the most used and most accepted, which I sort of knew anyway, but Sergent uses here stand by them as just as good, if not better, once you get used to them. Sergent does say that you have to do some filing and use a #2 pencil for lube, before you install them, and then work them a few times to get best results. The main thing I don't like about the Kadee, is the trip pin hanging off the coupler, and I plan on doing a lot of photography so that would look unrealistic. I wonder how much of the trip pin you can cut off, to shorten it, until the coupler no longer works over a magnet?
So far it seems that the majority here say Kadees are easier to use and more dependable. Some guys have too many in use to change now and Sergents look better but are finicky, take more time and patience, and cumbersome with the "stick" needed to reach over and uncouple them rather than with the Kadee magnet anywhere in the tracks.
Reading all that, I would say that Kadees, which are really all I ever used in the past, seem to be the most used and most accepted, which I sort of knew anyway, but Sergent uses here stand by them as just as good, if not better, once you get used to them. Sergent does say that you have to do some filing and use a #2 pencil for lube, before you install them, and then work them a few times to get best results.
The main thing I don't like about the Kadee, is the trip pin hanging off the coupler, and I plan on doing a lot of photography so that would look unrealistic.
I use Kadee couplers #5 and sometimes scale and whisker. Choice was easy for me since I'm primarily a passenger service modeler and Sergent couplers can't be used with passenger cars.
Forty Niner That's what we did in the 1960's only it was with an X2f couler on one end with a Kadee on the other as some guys preferred the old X2f couplers so for them to run on your layout you needed a "conversion car". Personally I'd be just as happy with a good brass scale size "dummy" coupler such as the Cal-Scale coupler and I would probably have converted to them if Bowser hadn't raised the price to the level of the Kadee's. I just like to "run trains" and am not the least bit concerned about "switching" and such. As for "uncoupling"..............I use the old 5 digit crane as much as I use my electro magnet uncouplers, don't really know why I have them now. Hey..........how many of you remember the old "straight" pin Kadee couplers with that rather bizarre uncoupler they used? Mark
That's what we did in the 1960's only it was with an X2f couler on one end with a Kadee on the other as some guys preferred the old X2f couplers so for them to run on your layout you needed a "conversion car".
Personally I'd be just as happy with a good brass scale size "dummy" coupler such as the Cal-Scale coupler and I would probably have converted to them if Bowser hadn't raised the price to the level of the Kadee's. I just like to "run trains" and am not the least bit concerned about "switching" and such. As for "uncoupling"..............I use the old 5 digit crane as much as I use my electro magnet uncouplers, don't really know why I have them now.
Hey..........how many of you remember the old "straight" pin Kadee couplers with that rather bizarre uncoupler they used?
Mark
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
dehusmanjasperofzeal Why can't anyone just answer the question without having to put their bias on why they choose what they choose? Remember, you put your bias on your answer too when you said they "operate like the prototype".
jasperofzeal Why can't anyone just answer the question without having to put their bias on why they choose what they choose?
Why can't anyone just answer the question without having to put their bias on why they choose what they choose?
Remember, you put your bias on your answer too when you said they "operate like the prototype".
No sir, if you look at my other post again, I'm quoting your reply to another poster that said that Sergents "operate like the prototype".
I agree to the rest of your response 100%, indeed it's all a matter of personal preference.
dehusmanWhat every modeler has to do is to choose which compromises they want and which shortcomings they want to live with.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
It would seem we have two solid camps of support for the Kadee and Sargeant (sp) couplers, and each camp has solid reasons for their choice. The number of freight cars I have accumulated over a lot of years makes the cost today too expensive to give up the Kadees, even if I wanted to. I have operated on a layout recently that has the Sargeant couplers and after I got used to working with them, not too bad, good appearance, but still the choice for me comes down to what I have already work just fine, and with somewhere around 800 freight cars total on the layout and on the shelves in the staging/molehole area, I won't even consider changing because the pros are outweighed by the cons for me.
The one problem for me is that I have a lot of industrial tracks out of reach of my arms/hands/fingers in uncoupling cars. The kadee magnets are just fine for these spots and I have about 95 percent sucess on first time coupling or uncoupling with Kadee couplers. Not sure how I could do the same with the Sargeant couplers with the same sucess rate.
But as one person posted, time will/may change as us old timers fade away and the younger guys become dominate.
Bob
I use both. I put Sergent couplers on a string of 40 foot Roundhouse reefers, but practically everything else will retain Kadees.
Sergent couplers are totally incompatible with other brands, so if you use them everything must be converted that is going to connect with them.
What I did was have cars at the ends with a Kadee on one end and a Sergent on the other.
I use Kadees, cars that comes with anything else get swapped to #158s. Two reasons, first, too much investment in Kadees, which work great, and I have other things to spend my money on. Second, I operate in module groups and the cars often get interchanged so compatability is a must.
As far as the philisophical side, couplers have long been a contentious issue. In many cases its not about what looks better, molre realistic operation or ease of installation but rather the time, effort and cost to replace. Kadees look fine and work great, is ti worth that time, effort and cost for marginal gains (percieved) in peformance or looks?
If you like the Sargents, go for it, I've heard great things about them. Who knows, maybe in 40 years, they will be the defacto standard for "serious modelers" just as Kadee did in the 60's and 70's.
Ricky
Except for Alexander link and pin couplers and those on large scale live steam type models, NO couplers, not Sargent, not Kadee, operate like the prototype. EVERY model coupler makes certain compromises on the prototype. EVERY model coupler has its strong points and weak points.
What every modeler has to do is to choose which compromises they want and which shortcomings they want to live with.
Sargent has advantages visually. Sargent has advantage operationally with less slack and other issues mentioned above. Kadee has advantages operationally in that they couple more easily and can be coupled and uncoupled in areas outside a person's reach. If you use manual uncoupling (a pick or bamboo skewer) to uncouple Kadees, then there is virtually no difference in how much you have to reach into the scene to uncouple cars. With Sargents, since you may also have to reach into the scene to open knuckles and since they aren't centering, you will have to reach into the scene more often to couple cars too. For people with access or eyesight issues that may make a difference.
Sargents may be difficult to use on passenger equipment with diaphrams since the top of the coupler will be in accessible. Kadees can be uncoupled with a magnet from below.
I use primarily Kadee, primarily #58's with the more scale sized head. Although I do not use the magnetic ramps, I have not cut off the "air hoses".
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I switched to Sergent Couplers a year or so back.
The fact that they sell a bulk pack now makes the conversion a lot less expensive.
Some notes that you may find of interest from my personal experience.
Uncoupling works very well. I find that I am fighting less with the the uncoupling process than I was before. Simply reach in, hold the wand on top of the coupler, and reverse the loco, and viola. And right where I want the car.
Smooth uncoupling seems directly related to the assembly process, so a little extra care can really pay off down the road. I now rub the inside of the ball socket with a #2 pencil for lubrication, and lightly file the inside part of the knuckle for smoother operation.
The second thing I love about them is how they don't uncouple. Once they are mated, they stay hooked, no accidental disconnects over delayed magnets, etc.
The third thing is they way they look. Not only do they look better, but they make trains look better, as the coupler gap is smaller, and this is not a problem even over short turnouts and the one piece of 18" radius sectional track on my test layout, on locos like the RS11s and with 50" cars.
The fourth thing I like is how they install, other than fighting with the spring (but you get better with experience), installation on almost anything is almost easier as the height is not as vital. Still important, though.
The fifth thing I like is the lack of car jerk - this is different than slack, and is more prevelent along other manufactures when cars at the end of the train bounce along forwards and backwards while being pulled along.
One thing is the importance of car resistance. Car weight is important (especially with metal wheelsets) for there to be enough resistance to make solid hands free connection.
The one challenge that some find as a drawback is with coupling; the couplers do have to be aligned to couple successfully. This requires a bit of experience (and I'm getting better, so it's becoming less of an issue). Kadees couple easily most of the time, the Sergents do as well, but only if they're aligned, but will do so even on tight curves.
This became more apparent and more work when making new connections, ie a different locomotive or car connecting than what was there previously, which requires alignment. On my first test layout the yard is in the middle of a 4x8, so reaching in to align things wasn't the easiest, but you do get better as you go. With a more shelf like (narrower) layout that I'm building, this will hopefully be much less of an issue.
Working them in is also necessary for good operation, besides the suggested method in the instructions, I connect and disconnect each car time and time again on a straight piece of track until the action works smoothly.
I was asked by a you tube viewer what the strength was. Specifically, could it handle 50 cars, or a 70 car coal drag? I didn't know, so I inquired with Frank Sergent, who was not only kind enough to reply, but kind enough to allow me to post his response below.
Seventy cars that weigh 3 oz would need about [70 cars X 3 oz/car X 0.01) = ] 2.1 oz of pull on straight and level track. That will require one average HO diesel to pull it. This isn't even starting to stress the couplers. No problem.
Seventy cars that weight 3 oz going around a reasonable curve, and up a 3% grade will need about [70 cars X 3 oz/car X (0.01 + 0.02 + 0.03) = ] 8.4 oz of pull. That's about 3 decent engines to pull it. Again, we aren't stressing the couplers at all.
Ten average diesels all pulling together will against a nail driven in the middle of the track will start spinning their wheels at about [(10 X 3.5 oz) = ] 35 oz of pull. The couplers will feel that for sure, but this is still no problem.
Twenty really good diesels all pulling against the nail can generate [(20 X 4.5 oz) = ] 90 oz of pull before the wheels start spinning. That's enough to make me nervous, but still below any sort of failure point as long as the couplers are assembled correctly.
Forty really good diesels all pulling against the nail will generate 180 oz of drawbar pull. That's just silly.
I don't think 70 cars would be a problem at all.
Back when Railmodel Journal was still alive, they printed a Performance Summary of locomotives in what seemed like every issue that was pretty useful. It gave tractive force measurements for all sorts of locomotives.
Thanks, Frank
So there you go. That should answer most questions on the drawbar strength.
Other observations:
The more you use them, they better they connect and disconnect, which reinforces the manufacture's insturctions on breaking them in.
I've also found that now, often I don't have to align couplers as often for them to connect, as they seem to be in the same alignment, even from different car to different car.
There can be problems with couplers that are too tight in the coupler box pulling cars off of the track. This may be negated by better trackwork and properly weighted cars, but be sure that the coupler moves freely within the box.
Sergents require a bit more work to assemble, and a bit more work to operate than a Kadee type coupler. This is neither a negative or an advantage, but a simple fact. I like assembling them, actually, its not a bad task. I also like how they operate, the action of uncoupling to me is nothing more than what a man on the ground would have to do.
Some of the nuances that can be annoying to people, such as aligning for coupling, are mitigated by a large degree with good layout lighting, and a bit of patience. Two things every layout can probably use.
This hobby seems to create, or facilitate, the need for folks to argue about what in truth is nothing more than useless minutia. I hold that the hobby has enough room for many approaches, and the Sergents represent another option for the modeler, and depending on your criteria and needs, may be a better or worse choice than others. That though, is up to you.
I do recommend that anyone interested at least pick up a couple of sets, and try them out first for themselves before deciding they are great, or horrible.
Hope this information is of use to you.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
dehusmandavidmbedard Your right, why would some people actually want a realistic coupler? I guess they are willing to compromise and use Kadees. Kadees are NOT realistic. Sergents operate like the prototype. Yes, at work we always uncouple our cars by sticking a large magnet on the end of a telephone pole between the cars. Dave H.
davidmbedard Your right, why would some people actually want a realistic coupler? I guess they are willing to compromise and use Kadees. Kadees are NOT realistic. Sergents operate like the prototype.
Your right, why would some people actually want a realistic coupler? I guess they are willing to compromise and use Kadees.
Kadees are NOT realistic. Sergents operate like the prototype.
Yes, at work we always uncouple our cars by sticking a large magnet on the end of a telephone pole between the cars.
Dave H.
I guess at your job they use the huge magnet between the tracks to pull the couplers apart, or is it buried under ground and activated by a huge switch mounted on the side of the earth?
Why can't anyone just answer the question without having to put their bias on why they choose what they choose? I'm sure it would make it easier for the OP to wade through all the personal opinions and just get a better answer to what he wanted to know.
To the OP, I now use Sergent couplers.
Nothing but Kadees here. I used to be strictly a #5 user, then the whiskers came out; I'm sold!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I use both, & am new to Sergent & the Proto87 arena. I like the scale appearance of the Sergents & the availability & size options for my 'difficult to fit' models.
However, I use a lot of rolling stock with Kadee & Kadee compatabile couplers, so see no reason to change from their scale head x58 style couplers in std & whisker styles.
Things to think about 'now' are; Will you ever share your loco's & rolling stock, & need comatibility? Is scale appearance more important than ease of use or personal style? Cost of a complete system? each month I see a new car or 6, & perhaps a loco I just gotta have.
I have modified a couple Kadee couplers to couple to a Sergent trouble free, & have a bunch of each on hand for photo sessions.. After all, the first thing we do after oogling the new loco or rs is take off the couplers to start disassembly & detailing, so a coupler swap is second nature. It's your personal taste & working environment that should help you decide what you go with.
In some of my photos you will see Sergents if it is a real proto, or if I just shoot a running/working model it will be the Kadee. (I don't think I have any Sergents on anything I have posted as of yet).
I like the seargents but they're too expensive to retrofit all my cars. I have way too big an investment in the kaydees. And what cars I get that don't have them, I retrofit to kaydees. Ironically, I even have a couple of cars that I got that had the seargents on them. I had to take them off and replace them with kaydees.
Strictly Kadee since I switched to HO i the early/mid 60's. I gave the "clones" a try when they came out but as has been stated earlier I like my trains to "stay" coupled, I'm sort of funny about that.
Right now I'm converting everything to those "short shank" Kadee's, a lot of work and expense for sure but I like the way the train looks when it all coupled together, makes quite a difference beleive it or not.
As for the Sergents (?), they're fine if you're doing a diorama or maybe a contest piece in my opinion but for my preference I'll stay with the Kadee's. I like to run semi-long trains, 25-35 cars and the Kadee's have one big advantage as I see it, reliability.......plus it's enough work just converting everyting to the short shanks let alone to a different style entirely.
As was said earlier, you can tell who's running Kadee's, they're the ones that stay coupled on those long trains.