While I am also a little unhappy, that MR discontinues the MR on-line magazine index, I have a good understanding for their decision - from a business point of view.
Information costs a lot of money and it is much more than the cost of a server and storage capacity. Maintaining a database is still a solid human job, which is costing a lot. What´s the use of a magazine index, if it is not up to date. How may times have we looked at a website and saw, that it was updated over 5 years ago?
I guess we have to get used to be paying for some services in the internet, if we want to keep them. Which would certainly take away a lot of fun.
I don´t store much info on my notebook. Twice I have lost the data gathered over years due to a hard disc crash. Whenever I need some info, I do a search, which often leads me to this place or any other of the "big" , MRR related sites. Interesting pages I do bookmark, though.
Besides this site, which as I said, I don't think is the best of them (sorry guys, gotta be honest)
I make use of Trainboard.com. They were really the first Model Railroad forum I discovered 8ish years ago and I think they're still the best. Especially given the level of things they offer for their community.
Next I use a number of yahoo groups. In particular I'm on the PNWR group, Loconotes and the Proto-Freelance Modelers SIG.
Finally, model railroad hobbiest.
Beyond that, there's of course the prototype sites that are the standards.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/
http://www.locophotos.com/
The 2 that everybody uses.
As for starting a community, I happen to be an admin for a small forum that is not about trains.
The cost for a shared server on host monster and the domain name renewal are a little under $200 a year and that would be about all you need for a site of I'd say a couple hundred users.
It includes lots of drive space for pictures, a complete LAMP install and email.
For a forum, you can install phpBB for free, or pay the small 1 time fee for a real forum software in vBulletin. vB has a yearly maintenance cost that you basically only pay if if you're going to upgrade otherwise you let it lapse. (This is legal)
So really the costs aren't very much.
jwhitten One of the things I am curious about, in addition to the original topic, is what web / online resources are there? If anybody knows of some good sites, put 'em up.
One of the things I am curious about, in addition to the original topic, is what web / online resources are there? If anybody knows of some good sites, put 'em up.
For S scale http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sscale.html
For TT scale http://www.ttscale.com/
Abandoned railroads http://www.abandonedrails.com/
Gorre & Daphetid http://www.gdlines.com/Galleries.html
Micro layouts http://carendt.com/
DCC http://www.wiringfordcc.com/
Tyco trains http://tycotrain.tripod.com/tycotrains/
HO trains of yesteryear http://hoseeker.org/
These are all good as of now, but some are a one man show.
Enjoy
Paul
YoHo1975Actually I disagree, I think wikipedia is at least as accurate as the average Encyclopedia...but it covers a lot more topics. The more esoteric the topic, the less likely it is that many different people have worked to edit it and thus it will represent fewer views and less knowledge....
...
I agree that wikipedia is reasonably accurate. But like research papers in school you should always have multiple sources. Not everything in books is accurate either.
jwhittenAnd I also agree that simply saving yourself a copy of a site you particularly enjoy is reasonable off-the-record advice, but be aware that in the doing you may be violating various intellectual property rights-- i.e. stealing content. Sure you can copy it, and who's ever going to know? I reckon that's a matter of your own morals and personal integrity. Certainly most of us wouldn't lift someone's meticulously detailed and laboriously painted locomotive model off their layout or train table at the swap meet. Gratuitously saving content in many cases amounts to the same thing. The only difference is you *can* do it and not get caught in most cases. (And I'm not preaching or taking names, I'm just pointing out the technicality of it).
John, I'm not an attorney, or a copyright expert, but as an aurthor and a creator of "intellectual property" in my profession (residential designer), my understanding of the copyright law is that drawings, books, pictures, recordings. writings, etc, that I have come into possession of by legal means, can be copied by me for my personal use. It is only when I "convert" those copies for personal gain or personal credit or redistribute them without the owners consent, that I have then "stolen" that persons "intellectual property".
I cannot see how the internet would be any different. If people put up web sites for free, that's no different than the free local newspaper that is given out. Computers "capture" information from the web, the only question is what we do with it once its on "our" computer.
If I am wrong about this, I would like someone to explain.
If I copy an article in MR, which I subscribe to, and take it from my office (where I keep the MR library, 1957 to present) to my workshop in the basement or to the train room above the garage to work on a project, I have not violated any laws.
Sheldon
hminkySorry, people that have websites owe the community nothing, they already gave. Harold
Sorry, people that have websites owe the community nothing, they already gave.
Harold
Of course, I agree with that and never meant to imply anything otherwise. However, what I was suggesting is that perhaps sometimes a site can become so ingrained into the community that it transcends its original ownership and becomes a part of the community it serves, even if it is still being physically owned and maintained by someone who operates it as a "labor of love"-- or doesn't, even if its a failed business venture. If it makes its mark and then becomes stagnated or dies, why can't there be a community effort to "reach in" and rescue it? Obviously there may also be additional entanglements such as intellectual property rights and so on. That sort of stuff would certainly have to be negotiated with whomever owns the content, along with the "right" to continue running the site.
Not all sites are expensive to run however. I don't know how many people here responding have ever hosted their own web sites, or run their own website hosting company, but I have done both and I am aware of the costs of both large sites and small sites, and it all depends on the site's complexity, amount of content, amount of new content added (whomever has to add it), the number of hits the site receives per month, the amount of bandwidth it uses, etc. Even though all that sounds like a lot-- its the numbers that you plug into those various variables that determine the true cost or burden of running the site.
The site may not be able to be economically viable in the sense that it can generate independent revenue. But if it were part of a pantheon of sites, at a community-interest collection of sites, for instance, then its possible that the site could be run off a combination of ad revenues, commercial sponsership, individual donors, and community involvement. Wikipedia, which was mentioned previously, is a really good example of this. It doesn't include advertising, but its not the only possible model for running a site either.
And I also agree that simply saving yourself a copy of a site you particularly enjoy is reasonable off-the-record advice, but be aware that in the doing you may be violating various intellectual property rights-- i.e. stealing content. Sure you can copy it, and who's ever going to know? I reckon that's a matter of your own morals and personal integrity. Certainly most of us wouldn't lift someone's meticulously detailed and laboriously painted locomotive model off their layout or train table at the swap meet. Gratuitously saving content in many cases amounts to the same thing. The only difference is you *can* do it and not get caught in most cases. (And I'm not preaching or taking names, I'm just pointing out the technicality of it).
To another poster who indicated he'd rather see "real" railroad resources saved-- I definitely agree with that too. However, just for the record, these online web sites *ARE* real railroad resources of the modern (Internet) age. Not every single one of them is worth saving, just as its probably not worth it to save every rail and tie-plate. And the obvious analog is print material-- books, magazines, flyers, etc. of the publishing world. The Internet is simply the next logical stage of publishing and disseminating information, and eliciting feedback. Sure information gets stale quickly-- but not all information, nor does it always grow stale at the same rate. Some information is timeless and is valuable no matter what the era.
We are still at the cusp of the modern digital world. And we are beginning to face a new set of problems that never existed much before. The closest previous analog would be something like a book going out-of-print. The difference being is that you can probably still go to the library, or else scour the used book stores and such, to find it if you really wanted to. On the Internet, when a site dies, its just gone-- POOF. Like that. And it might be a personal site, with personal wisdom and information. Imagine if Tony Koester lost interest one day and *POOF* all his books were just gone-- vanished in the blink of an eye from anywhere, everywhere. Its a lot like the same thing.
John
jwhittenOne of the things I am curious about, in addition to the original topic, is what web / online resources are there? If anybody knows of some good sites, put 'em up.
My favorites/commonly used:
http://www.railserve.com/
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/ne_trainlinks.html
http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/term/aboutssl.htm
http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/
http://www.brian894x4.com/AbandonedRRmainpage.html
http://www.trainweb.com/
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Here's a couple:
National Model Railroad Association (NMRA):
www.nmra.org
Layout Design Special Interest Group (LDSig):
www.ldsig.org
Keystone Crossings (PRR Info):
kc.pennsyrr.com/
Layout Vision (Byron Henderson's Site):
www.layoutvision.com
[Link removed]
Proto87Store:
proto87.com
sorry---got it fixed--thanks
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I got in the habit years ago of saving ANYthing that I found would be useful at a later date to my hard-drive. You can easily save complete intact web pages - I have folders full of them, just save as "webpage, complete".
There was more than a few times in the past where I favorited a site to use as reference later only to find it gone when I needed it. Save, print and back-up everything.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
blownout cylinder ATLANTIC CENTRAL The "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside. Oh come on now---sheesh. Talk about hyperbole Since when is your site so holy that the :Way Back" machine becomes an "Abomination"?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside.
Oh come on now---sheesh. Talk about hyperbole
Since when is your site so holy that the :Way Back" machine becomes an "Abomination"?
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? NOT MY QUOTE?
Try crediting that that to the person who posted it. I simply agreed with his overall point of view.
blownout cylinderATLANTIC CENTRAL The "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside. Oh come on now---sheesh. Talk about hyperbole Since when is your site so holy that the :Way Back" machine becomes an "Abomination"? There are some sites on that that have proven their worth over the years. Not all of them but a good percentage of them. I guess if you don't have an interest in the dang site then someone else might----what is the problem with that? In the music end of things there are sites that have had VSTi's that have proven their worth over the years that had their been no "Way Back" would have been lost completely. Some people still use older computers that cannot use the newest software so there these sights exist on the "Way Back" to be used to download these VSTi's Sumbunall--Some But Not All. Makes for way saner discussions
There are some sites on that that have proven their worth over the years. Not all of them but a good percentage of them. I guess if you don't have an interest in the dang site then someone else might----what is the problem with that?
In the music end of things there are sites that have had VSTi's that have proven their worth over the years that had their been no "Way Back" would have been lost completely. Some people still use older computers that cannot use the newest software so there these sights exist on the "Way Back" to be used to download these VSTi's
Sumbunall--Some But Not All. Makes for way saner discussions
Since that was my quote I should comment on the "abomination" it makes of a website. The "Wayback Machine" doesn't accurately reproduce the website. It is chopped up and incoherent. I would rather have the website disappear than be the travesty produced on the "Wayback Machine".
Yeah, my site is that "Holy" to me, it is countless hours of work. I guess the "Wayback Machine" didn't mangle your website, because you never had one. Know what you are talking about.
Again, I belong to a number of different web forums on a number of different topics.
Perhaps its not political to say it, but I don't even think that this particular forum on model trains is the best one out there. (If for no other reason than that their forum software is non-standard.) I love philosophy friday though. PF is a part of this forum now. A part that none of the owners of this site have anything to do with besides providing the soapbox (if you will). If these forums shut down, we lose PF through no fault of the content provider.
In other words the internet, and forums in particular extend well beyond the artificial boundaries of who pays the bills.
As for paying for content. I disagree. I've found that internet users will not pay a corporate entity for content, nor will they register with a corporate entity often (this website being a curious exception) that is the problem that NY Times and WSJ have. I have however seen many many websites that are supported by their users. Trainboard.com being probably the prominent MR related example.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL hminkyThe "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside.
hminkyThe "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWikipedia is so full of incorrect information it is worse than the old "pass the story around the room game". I have been amazed at the incorrect stuff I have read on there that I have personal first hand knowledge of. Succesful and good are two different things. Sheldon
Wikipedia is so full of incorrect information it is worse than the old "pass the story around the room game". I have been amazed at the incorrect stuff I have read on there that I have personal first hand knowledge of. Succesful and good are two different things.
This is so true to the point for me at least, that if someone quotes that he saw it in the wiki, that I ask for corroborating evidence that isn't on the web, but in print.
I think that if a site on the web is so important to you that you don't want to see it "go away", contact the owners and see if you can help keep it up some way. Money, time, data entry, whatever. Worse that will happen is they'll say no.
Knowing that all sites eventually will go the way of the dinosaurs, if there is some info on a site that is important to me, I download and save, not just bookmark.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
The boards here are pretty much the only train related, model or otherwise, that I visit. Every once in a long while I'll browse through a few pages on the railroad picture or fallen flag website but thats it. If someone has been maintaining a site for the community and decides to take it offline or close it to new content, its their choice.
This happened to a very popular discussion forum (10,000 + members) for a game that I used to play called the pwn depot. The guy that started the site couldnt keep it up for a number of reasons so he closed it down. If a website closure truly affected enough people I'd think that someone would have the smarts to step up and design a new place for them to share interests.
Cahrn
hminky Sorry, people that have websites owe the community nothing, they already gave.
That pretty much explains my views, I don't understand why some people believe they are entitled. If you want an archive, you had better make your own. Memory is cheap these days, and you only have yourself to blame if something disappears.
I would prefer that this energy be focused on preserving real items, a depot, a rail car. Digital information evolves fast, alot of what you read today are outdated a month later. While there is admittely good information in the old MRR index, I really won't go back to 1972 to see how to make lichen trees.
Sites that have information I think I'll use on a regular basis - I copy said information to my own computer. Spare me the copywrite argument - I don't share this, it's for my own personal use, and in a sane society we wouldn't have the ridiculous copywrite regulations brought on by the likes of Disney that serve only to stifle creative.
My own site tends to fall into the "lost interest" category - not that I have actually lost interest, but updating my site seems to be way down on my list of things to do so it seldom happens, thus it looks like I haven't done anything for months. Adding video in addition to pictures has introduced a whole new wrinkle - seems none of the common video hosting sites liek the data that comes from my camera so I now have to learn how to use a video editor to fix it before uploading (they look fine on my computer WITHOUT editing). And so updates fall further and further behind. Assuming I want to actually get any railroad work done. What I should do is remove the air condition in the train room so it is unpleasant to be in there and that will force me to do other things like maybe update the site.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
hminky The "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside. When I took my On30 site off a couple of years ago people offered to host the site, looked at their un-mowed grass on their site and said no thanks. Got lots of hate-email over that and then was told the On30 site was crap and was banned from the "Conspiracy". PDF anything you want, lots of free PDFers out there. Sorry, people that have websites owe the community nothing, they already gave. Harold
The "wayback machine" makes your website an abomination. Magazines don't burn, just scorch on the outside.
When I took my On30 site off a couple of years ago people offered to host the site, looked at their un-mowed grass on their site and said no thanks. Got lots of hate-email over that and then was told the On30 site was crap and was banned from the "Conspiracy".
PDF anything you want, lots of free PDFers out there.
There you have it! directly from someone who has put lots of great stuff on the WEB over the years!
Thank you Harold for all the great info!
First, one of the problems with the internet is that (in most cases) nobody is willing to pay for content. Some of us are even unwilling to file a free registration for content. One of the results is the non-durability of information.
If information is valuable, presumably those who value the information would come forward and make the necessary committments to save the information.
The "Internet Way Back Machine" has some value, but it is plagued by what seems to be an easily-overwhelmed and slow server. All too often it records the top-level pages, but fails to copy the second and third pages. Better than nothing, but still not great.
While I realize that everything costs money, and profit margins are not very wide these days, it would seem to me that publishers would have electronic databases of their own publications, at least for the last twenty years or so.
Dan
YoHo1975... This is not a model railroad issue, this is an issue for any website on the internet. The correct answer is that sites that are "community" owned and driven succeed. Sites that are a one person labor of love and that person doesn't "give it over" to the community will die. So to me this question has a remarkably simple answer. Online resources work best when they cultivate a community interest. Wikipedia is the most successful and obvious example. ...
This is not a model railroad issue, this is an issue for any website on the internet. The correct answer is that sites that are "community" owned and driven succeed. Sites that are a one person labor of love and that person doesn't "give it over" to the community will die.
So to me this question has a remarkably simple answer. Online resources work best when they cultivate a community interest. Wikipedia is the most successful and obvious example.
This isn't just the internet. Any one person operation is subject to ending for a variety of reasons - poor health, retirement, loss of interest, etc. It's just easier and faster with the Internet.
There is a model train wiki http://www.modeltrainwiki.com/tiki-index.php, but I don't think it's working out very well. We may be too much of a niche group.
YoHo1975Paper magazines are a storage issue and a fire hazard.
Storage issue - OK, fire hazard - Hogwash - Or, quit smoking (facts and advice from the son of a firefighter).
YoHo1975Wikipedia is the most successful and obvious example.
What does "community" owned mean? Someone buys the server, pays for its electric, and enters the data - the guy with the gold, or the guy who gets gold from us to support it.
At this point in my life, Paper magazines are a storage issue and a fire hazard. I like to get them and read them, but I don't want to keep them. Which is why I'm pleased that my club does keep extensive back issues. In a perfect world, the situation would mimic Popular Science which recently put every single issue they could online for free. not just an index, the text as well.
I'm going to be a contrarian and a pessimist on this one.
I use a moderate number of online resources for my modeling - HOWEVER -
I do not consider them perminent, garrantied, or 100% reliable.
I don't spend much time "searching" for new online resources, or keeping track of the ones I have found.
If I find info I consider really valuable, I download it or print it out.
Similar thinking keeps me in PHYSICAL possession of nearly complete Model Railroader and RMC collections dating back to the 50's, as well as a great many books, both hard and soft cover.
I have very limited "trust" in this black box or its connection to the rest of the world.
So, if these resources are there, fine, if not I will use more traditional methods.
As to your question, the market decides or those willing to "volunteer" their time or money decide - remember the golden rule - he who has the gold, makes the rules.
I do think it is very nice that so many people with the time/money/knowledge/bandwidth set up sites of interest - but I'm not so sure there is anything that can, or should, be done beyond what these individuals are doing now.
"SOS! (Save our Sites) Managing Online MR Resources"
Howdy! Happy Friday. Here's hoping its gonna be a good and productive Model Railroading weekend for everybody!
Hasta La Vista MR Magazine Index (Till we meet again :-)
My post today is inspired by the recent news that the Model Railroad Searchable Magazine Index was recently taken down, as many of you probably already know from reading the forums. There were several lengthy threads about it-- all were locked however-- so let's not rehash that particular aspect!
So Many Sites to Visit, So Little Time
What I would like to discuss though is generally, how should stuff like that be handled? I know of a number of useful online resources that are no longer being maintained. From a variety of reasons including disinterest of the original site-owner/maintainer(s), lack of funds to continue the site, lack of time of the site owner/maintainer(s), and even in one case a computer or disk crash that wiped out a significant portion of the site's purpose (railroad photos) and no backup was available.
From one perspective, these are all individual sites, put up by individuals and generally-speaking, managed and maintained for the sheer enjoyment of doing so, or else the sense of contribution to the overall MR community. A few were attempts at revenue-generation that simply didn't make it, but most were "labors of love". As such, we users are (or should be) grateful to these people for whatever contribution they were willing to make, for as long as they were able to make it.
From another perspective, once this stuff gets out there and known in the MR community, it sort-of transcends its original intent and becomes kind-of a "public utility", for lack of a better word. And in that sense, perhaps there is some greater "duty" owed to the community to keep and maintain the site. As a user, you could certainly be forgiven for feeling that way if it was a service upon which you have come to depend.
Of course, regardless of how you might feel about it personally as a user, as a site-owner / maintainer, it legally belongs to you and its your property and up to you what to do, when to do, how to do-- whatever it is you do or provide-- unless there is any sort of "contract" or binding "commitment" made someplace that obligates you beyond simple beneficence.
The Internet Archive / Wayback Machine
So, what's the MR community to do? As sites get older and the people who run them get old, bored, distracted, or otherwise unable to keep them up, in the best case, the material simply grows stale. In the worst case it can become degraded, corrupted, or even lost altogether. Of course there is always the "Internet Archive" (also known affectionately as the "Wayback Machine") that can possibly offer you a glimpse of a defunct site, or a site in its former glory. But there is no guarantee it was ever picked-up by the archive, or archived at the right moments to have caught whatever material seemed relevant.
Over the years there have already been a number of sites that have foundered, grown stale, or lost to the ages. In the upcoming years there are bound to be even more. The situation, as far as I know, is not getting *better* but is getting *worse* and going to get *much worse* as the people who maintain them are unable to maintain them for whatever the reasons-- as we discussed above.
So Here are My Questions For Today:
How can the community act to save and preserve such sites? I know that in some cases there have been people and organizations who have come forward to pick up the reigns and take-over derelict sites. But not all sites have been saved. And one question that should surely be asked is, are all sites even *worth* trying to save? What if its just a "photo site" of somebody's layout? Or a site that promotes an older or out-dated technique? Or a club site that no longer exists? Who decides? What's worthy? What's not?
As usual, I'm looking forward to your thoughts and opinions!
And, if you know of any really good URL's for sites that have good information, photos, or even you just think they're interesting in a (Model) Railroady sort of way, please post the URL's and let everybody know!