Hello everyone...
I don't want to start a fire here or come across as a 'rivet counter' but I have been recently updating all of my invnetory on to my Yard Office Inventory Program and while researching the car data for the NS, SIND and CSX versions, it would appear that the 'molded on' door that comes on this model is not at all accurate for other than the SOUTHERN road...the other details seem to bear out with a very few exceptions(which I could live with) BUT the door thing is really got me coming unhinged.
It's bad enough that the 1st run of the Southern cars had the wrong artwork -ExactRail came clean and quickly offered another run with correct numbers. But passing off this car in other road names knowing that a major component of the tooling is not correct for that prototype, is really a shock to me.
IF ANYBODY can provide a shot of any of these cars in the roads mentioned - with the door Exactrail has tooled, I'd be greatful... my research has led me to a dead end and the conclusion that I've been duped by a manufacturer that claims to model every thing they do to the utmost prototypical accuracy. I could see this on a $15- $17 car - or even if it was a release from the EXPRESS series.
But Signature EXACTrail??? At $34.95 a pop ... I find this to be real frustrating on a supposedly premier car. I've been mainly pleased with most of their offerings and own many of their products, but if this is a direction that is acceptable to pass off on the modeler, I'm done with their products. help.
Thanks, Heritagefleet1
Dumb question: Why are SOU doors wrong for NS, since NS has a large portion of itself that is SOU? Or are the ExactRail NS car numbers cars that NS orddered new with different doors, not cars that got transferred from the SOU/NW merger that became NS?
-Morgan
I found one NS car that was close but the lowest panel was different. It appears that both NS and CSX replaced many doors based on the color difference between the doors and the bodies. Is the door actually molded on (most of their cars are too new for my era) or can it be replaced? I know after shelling out that much, no one wants to go and buys some doors too. But it may be an option.
Ricky
Hi Morgan... no question is a dumb question... I didn't make that real clear.
The car door modeled (tooled), appears to be correct for Southern road #s but if you research the car #'s Exactrail did in the CSX and NS versions, and look at the prototype photos of those cars, they have completely different doors. I suppose you could 'justify' this with a story about 'rebuilt' equipment but... that's really thin. the fact is, most of these cars have not been rebuilt- some have been repainted and wheel changeouts but that's it.
It's very annoying to me.
Thanks for your response. Heritagefleet1
Hi Ricky...
No, suprisingly, it's moulded on as part of the carbody. I wouldn't want to attempt that chang even if the door was available... too much for this expensive of a car.
Thanks for your response!
Rick/Heritagefleet1
Perhaps if you point out this flaw in the Exact Rail product to them, they can provide a solution more than what you'll get from members of the forum. Maybe Exact Rail goofed and doesn't realize their mistake.
You probably have a good point... that doesn't help me with what I have though. I just wanted to find out if anyone else has experienced this or of anyone had any research photos of these cars that I may have missed( I've researched the actual cars and the photos I've located do not lie- the model is wrong for the versions other than the SOU) If Exactrail knew this going in and made a decision to do so knowing that it was not prototypically correct detail for the versions like the NS and CSX, then I don't think they(Exactrail) acted in the best interest of their own product line, or modelers like myself- who are willing to pay more for top notch models but expect them to be accurate based on the prototype.
At a list of 34.95 a copy, I don't think I(or anyone else) should have to reserach the product for them in order to get a accuratly depicted model... but I guess I'll be checking more closely moving forward.
One more thing: If I do have anyone that can provide a actual photo of the road #'s Exactrail produced in the NS and CSX versions, showing the door tooled on the carbody, I'll be the first to admit I was totally wrong and stand corrected with my humble appoligies.
Thanks for all who have responded.
Heritagefleet1
Heritagefleet1 Hi Morgan... no question is a dumb question... I didn't make that real clear. The car door modeled (tooled), appears to be correct for Southern road #s but if you research the car #'s Exactrail did in the CSX and NS versions, and look at the prototype photos of those cars, they have completely different doors. I suppose you could 'justify' this with a story about 'rebuilt' equipment but... that's really thin. the fact is, most of these cars have not been rebuilt- some have been repainted and wheel changeouts but that's it. It's very annoying to me. Thanks for your response. Heritagefleet1
Hmm, rebuilt to an old door is flimsy, rebuilt to the new (prototypical) door not so much, and you'd be surprised how many dummies will miss the opeinging in a boxcar with a forklift and go for the door... I'm still trying to figure out how one t-bones a stainless steel coach though...
And I use dumb sometimes as an introduction, espeically into a topic that I'm not well versed in. IE, boxcar doors of any era. Since I have not a layout now, I'm working on project theme trains that I can run at the club, and not so much my era equipment/rolling stock. Though as soon as I can get hold of a GP10, a Point St. Charles Caboose, one or two 45s, and the Atlas Genset (and a job) I can get that part knocked out
Heritagefleet1One more thing: If I do have anyone that can provide a actual photo of the road #'s Exactrail produced in the NS and CSX versions, showing the door tooled on the carbody, I'll be the first to admit I was totally wrong and stand corrected with my humble appoligies.
I don't know anything about the prototype or model in question as it is way outside my era of modeling interest, but, until the exact car numbers ae docmented to be incorrect, or at least cars close in number series to the modeled cars are shown to be different, how can you assume them to be wrong?
As others have suggested, this question needs to be posed to Exact Rail, maybe they have the photos or documentation to answer the question?
In other eras, items like doors came from various suppliers and did get replaced often with different versions than the cars were built with. I do understand the "new" nature of these cars makes that less likely, but often in the history of this hobby manufacturers have based their product on "the" photo or drawing they had, without regard for whether of not it was the most common example.
As for expecting a $35.00 car to be correct, well if they say it is, and that's why it costs $35.00 than you do have a right to be upset. Personally, I don't buy $35.00 box cars, so I wouldn't know.
Sheldon
Heritagefleet1 One more thing: If I do have anyone that can provide a actual photo of the road #'s Exactrail produced in the NS and CSX versions, showing the door tooled on the carbody, I'll be the first to admit I was totally wrong and stand corrected with my humble appoligies. Thanks for all who have responded. Heritagefleet1
I checked virtually all the car numbers for CSX and NS on rrpicturearchives.net and none matched. However, I pulled a different NS car number from the Fallen Flags site and it is close, except for the bottom panel (probably where the forks went thru)
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ns/ns407027ajm.jpg
lol!... sorry... that bit about a job just hit me funny.
Sheldon..
I researched the car numbers that Exactrail has done, and matched them to photos of the prototype
car(s). The Result?
Well ,the photos clearly show the car and the appropriate car# and allthough the cars are aged and have graffitti all over them, the number matches the model - the door on the prototype does not.
Thanks for the link. Boy..., Ricky... I've got to admit- that car is real close and I could live with it not having the bottom ridge panel - it's just not the right car number for the model Exactrail has offered! Again, this is a question of researching before just slapping a number on a production run car.
OKAY! Okay... I know what you're all thinking.
So, I guess for 34.95 I have to still re-number my own cars with decals... that 's just great.
I suppose I'm upset over nothing - it just annoys me to no end.
thanks,
Rick
Heritagefleet1 Sheldon.. I researched the car numbers that Exactrail has done, and matched them to photos of the prototype car(s). The Result? Well ,the photos clearly show the car and the appropriate car# and allthough the cars are aged and have graffitti all over them, the number matches the model - the door on the prototype does not.
OK, That was not complelely clear in your earlier posts, or at least I did not understand you clearly.
I agree, that does not say much for their "research".
How old are these cars? Are we sure they have not been repaired or modified and the that model reflects "as built"?
I model the the early 50's and as such have zero interest in stuff this new, but it does seem strange they would make such an obvious mistake.
I must say, one of the reasons current railroading does not interest me is the way you discribed the cars you found photos of, "aged and have graffitti all over them". While railroading has always been a dirty, grimy business, prior to the 60's it was at least a better maintained business with a lot less rust and little vandelisum.
This thread got my attention because I am a fairly "technical" kind of person, but I no longer concern myself with such small details in my modeling - though I once did to a great degree.
Good luck in your search for more info.
Heritagefleet1At a list of 34.95 a copy, I don't think I(or anyone else) should have to reserach the product for them in order to get a accuratly depicted model... but I guess I'll be checking more closely moving forward.
The Fallen flags link is a very useful site in that you can pull up al kinds of useful stuff. The issue I'm having is that we just have photos to go on when it comes to the prototype. If you have one set of prototype photos and they have another set who will you believe? I have to go with what they have for the photos. If they are (re)presenting the original prototype "as built" at that time then it is what it is. Remember that it is only a (re)presentation of that which had existed before.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Well,First you may be looking at the wrong car since these cars have the wrong number and ends for the number series ExactRail used on these cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Renumbering a car from one of the high priced outfits is no big deal. I have a total of 61 of the ExactRail ATSF grain cars in the two different lettering schemes. guess how many of that 61 number I had to renumber? There is no way any manufacturer can plan for the exception like me who collects a certain road name.
They were not that hard to renumber, just took a little time.
Bob
Heritagefleet1But passing off this car in other road names knowing that a major component of the tooling is not correct for that prototype, is really a shock to me.
pastorbob Renumbering a car from one of the high priced outfits is no big deal. I have a total of 61 of the ExactRail ATSF grain cars in the two different lettering schemes. guess how many of that 61 number I had to renumber? There is no way any manufacturer can plan for the exception like me who collects a certain road name. They were not that hard to renumber, just took a little time. Bob
I agree but,$35.00 a pop those Southern boxcars cars should have the correct details and numbers.
None the less I bought two..
As I understood it at the time of the first run the ExactRail Southern Waffle Sides bodies are correct for some of the prototype Southern cars only. The other road names are meant to be "representative" of that type of car, but are not billed as accurate.
The Gunderson 2420 gondola is another example of that approach. The car is an SP prototype and wasn't really rostered in that same form by any other railroad.
I bought one of the Gunderson cars in SP and am quite happy with it.
Mark Gosdin
kog1027As I understood it at the time of the first run the ExactRail Southern Waffle Sides bodies are correct for some of the prototype Southern cars only. The other road names are meant to be "representative" of that type of car, but are not billed as accurate.The Gunderson 2420 gondola is another example of that approach. The car is an SP prototype and wasn't really rostered in that same form by any other railroad.I bought one of the Gunderson cars in SP and am quite happy with it.Mark Gosdin
The flip side of this is, Sure, you have picture evidence of doors being different, but doors can be replaced easily and are replaced fairly often. I'd argue that you need a picture of the car immediately after painting to NS and which door it had at that time to prove it's wrong. These are industrial products that will change over time, you can only hope to capture what is correct for a single point in time.
ALL...
Thanks for all the input and thoughts from all viewpoints - it is appreciated.
As for the Gundeson SP gon... I'm good with that car - it is representitive of the actual SP car and in the EXPRESS series at 19.95 retail, it is an incredible bargin. I'm also aware that the car is not accurate for all the other roads but is 'a close match' to several other prototypes(or not). I only was interested in the SP version and they are the only ones I've acquired.
I'm going to wind this thread down with my own thoughts:
My arguement has not changed. When Exactrail commits itself to suggesting clearly that their offerings are the most accurate and most correctly detailed in the industry, that is what I expect. I'm not going to applogize for that.
I too, own well over 100 of their products, most of which are autoflood II cars, covered hoppers and gondolas- which I am pleased with and find no real prototype issues with. My only gripe there is minor: I want to see more numbers offered on the Autoflood II's -and I'm sure they will eventually... you just have to live long enough to get the train built.
But I'm sorry, I can't agree with this 'inaccuracy' at this price-point for this waffle side car. I've decided to just sell off these and some of the 4780 hoppers which also appear to be non-prototypes for the roads offered.
There's no one to blame really but myself - I have gotten out of the habit of researching products before I buy them - part of that is due to the 'limited run' syndrome we are all subjected to now. If something is announced, you've got to get it reserved if you want to get it.
To be honest, I've not been real pleased with the quality control of Athearns products as of late- in particular, their locomotives are very inconsistent in quality(i.e, handrails are horrible - Athearn, the celcon has got to go)...(that's another thread topic) but at least they are aware of it and have made some strides to improve it. BUT... I'm very pleased with the recent Athearn freight car offerings and find these to not only be very accurate, but a great value as well. Atlas has also really taken thier game up a few notches and that is good for the hobby. The GP-40-2 SP and SSW offerings are outstanding for the price.
I hope that Exactrail will start re-thinking what they are brining to the table- thay are a good company with some great products - with the exception of the Waffle car, I've been pretty much okay with the product line. Getting caught off-guard will really cause me to look more closely at future projects before I buy...and that's not going to be easy with their 'Announce and Release' business model.(also another topic).
Again, thanks to all and have fun modeling!
Heritagefleet1ALL... Thanks for all the input and thoughts from all viewpoints - it is appreciated. As for the Gundeson SP gon... I'm good with that car - it is representitive of the actual SP car and in the EXPRESS series at 19.95 retail, it is an incredible bargin. I'm also aware that the car is not accurate for all the other roads but is 'a close match' to several other prototypes(or not). I only was interested in the SP version and they are the only ones I've acquired. I'm going to wind this thread down with my own thoughts: My arguement has not changed. When Exactrail commits itself to suggesting clearly that their offerings are the most accurate and most correctly detailed in the industry, that is what I expect. I'm not going to applogize for that. I too, own well over 100 of their products, most of which are autoflood II cars, covered hoppers and gondolas- which I am pleased with and find no real prototype issues with. My only gripe there is minor: I want to see more numbers offered on the Autoflood II's -and I'm sure they will eventually... you just have to live long enough to get the train built. But I'm sorry, I can't agree with this 'inaccuracy' at this price-point for this waffle side car. I've decided to just sell off these and some of the 4780 hoppers which also appear to be non-prototypes for the roads offered. There's no one to blame really but myself - I have gotten out of the habit of researching products before I buy them - part of that is due to the 'limited run' syndrome we are all subjected to now. If something is announced, you've got to get it reserved if you want to get it. To be honest, I've not been real pleased with the quality control of Athearns products as of late- in particular, their locomotives are very inconsistent in quality(i.e, handrails are horrible - Athearn, the celcon has got to go)...(that's another thread topic) but at least they are aware of it and have made some strides to improve it. BUT... I'm very pleased with the recent Athearn freight car offerings and find these to not only be very accurate, but a great value as well. Atlas has also really taken thier game up a few notches and that is good for the hobby. The GP-40-2 SP and SSW offerings are outstanding for the price. I hope that Exactrail will start re-thinking what they are brining to the table- thay are a good company with some great products - with the exception of the Waffle car, I've been pretty much okay with the product line. Getting caught off-guard will really cause me to look more closely at future projects before I buy...and that's not going to be easy with their 'Announce and Release' business model.(also another topic). Again, thanks to all and have fun modeling! Rick
ExactRail is in a no-win situation if one holds them to a higher standard than other manufacturers just because of their name.
At best a model is going to be an exact duplicate representing only a portion of the prototype's service life. With rebuilds, updates, part replacements, service date stenciling, dings, dents, and scrapes, FRA mandates, etc that the prototype goes thru, an accurately tooled model will at best only be an exact copy for the modelers of a relatively small window of time. In today's society with all the free range graffiti "artists" it may only be "exact" for a day! Considering these service life changes of the prototype, what is exact for my modeling time frame may not be exact for your era. What level of exact do you want?
Also, remember Athearn's tag line for its Genesis models is a more demanding standard than the name ExactRail.
Jay
My final thought on this round of ExactRail bashing. I bought a couple of the waffles, and to be perfectly honest, they don't look bad running in a freight train or sitting on a siding, and the people who populate my little world could care less, so do I. When you find anything in this world that is perfect, let me know and I will be happy to support it.
Someone on this thread answered my comments about renumbering the ATSF grain cars with a comment that they should have more road numbers. Give me a break! I have 61 or so of those cars, there is no manufacturer alive on planet earth that will do that many individually different numbers, and I don't expect them to. Being old school, I don't expect to open the box and sit it on the rails and run.
Bob wrote:I bought a couple of the waffles, and to be perfectly honest, they don't look bad running in a freight train or sitting on a siding(snip)
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Agreed! When I take my high end cars out and place 'em on my 3 HO display tracks my Southern wafflers looks as good as my Genesis,Atlas,IM and Branchline(RTR) cars..
Why the high end cars?
I been wanting to do a high end ISL for several years using C70 track,highly detailed cars and locomotive..I have 32 cars so far and 2 high end locomotives..So,after I finish the N Scale ISL I might start the HO ISL...
pastorbobmanufacturer alive on planet earth that will do that many individually different numbers
Russell
csxns pastorbobmanufacturer alive on planet earth that will do that many individually different numbers How many numbers did BLMA do on the Top Gons.
How many numbers did BLMA do on the Top Gons.
There were not THAT many numbers on those top gons. All this is is another bashing thread about not having enough numbers or the "correct" details on a boxcar etc----
If you want everything to be done for you then expect to pay for it--the rest of us will scratchbuild them to our liking so there---
YoHo1975Even @$35 It's a little bit much to expect a company to mass produce a model and make the door detail, which changes from rebuild to rebuild correct. The number of units sold for such a specific car is low enough as it is.
Actually the only thing wrong is the doors and ends is wrong for the number series ER used.Had they taken the time for researching the difference in cars they would had the correct number..A easy fix if one wants to change the numbers..I will use the cars the way they are since they're such a beautiful car..