dstarr Another plea. Try the search feature before asking a question. There are a lot of really good posts on nearly everything and search often brings them up. Instant gratification.
Dstarr-- with all due respect and the highest regard, I suggest to you as gently as I can-- Go try it for yourself...
1. Locate the "Search" feature in the right-hand pane
2. Type in the words: "hand laying track" and hit the "Search" button
3. Check out the results
All EIGHT THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FOURTEEN *PAGES* worth of results.
That's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 .... 8310, 8311, 8312, 8314 PAGES
I'm not making that up-- try it yourself!
John
DoughlessAs far as rudeness: I think most members and lurkers are mature enough to understand that the people behind the words are probably just as harmless as they are, its just that written expression is sometimes harder to make clear. Short responses can sound rude. Sarcasm is even tougher to successfully pull off without sounding like a jerk sometimes. Oftentimes I find the arguments between forum members rather entertaining. I'm sure others do, and I can't imagine that those kinds of comments really drive people away.
There's entertainment and then there's downright insulting-- the former is, well, entertaining, and I enjoy it as much as the next guy. The latter is just sad really. Grown-ups playing with trains who can't be nice to each other. Of all the things in the world to argue about-- that one should be at the very bottom of the list.
DoughlessHeck, the solving of the P2K gear issue over the years alone probably accounts for 25% of the drop in posts.
Heh, you may have something there!
Texas ZepherjwhittenBut better search tools are only one aspect of the problem, another aspect is how to improve the "findability" of information within the overall data corpus (posts) being searched? Some of the requisite features are already available within this site's software ability-- the ability to add "keywords" to posts, ...Why not add a "Tag Cloud"-- or more correctly, why not put it back? I know it can get unweildy but its also a very good and useful tool for finding information. The big problem with "Tag Clouds", and keywords in general, is maintaining them properly. Just like anything else, if everyone can add them willy-nilly its going to get out-of-hand very quickly. And the biggest issue of the tag cloud is that it seems the people who liked to fill them out would put in tags that don't mean anything or need to be there. Why tag a message "trackside diner" when it that thread is always on page 1 or 2 anyway? Just takes away the value of the tags that could be meaningful to someone seriously searching for information.
jwhittenBut better search tools are only one aspect of the problem, another aspect is how to improve the "findability" of information within the overall data corpus (posts) being searched? Some of the requisite features are already available within this site's software ability-- the ability to add "keywords" to posts, ...Why not add a "Tag Cloud"-- or more correctly, why not put it back? I know it can get unweildy but its also a very good and useful tool for finding information. The big problem with "Tag Clouds", and keywords in general, is maintaining them properly. Just like anything else, if everyone can add them willy-nilly its going to get out-of-hand very quickly.
Why not add a "Tag Cloud"-- or more correctly, why not put it back? I know it can get unweildy but its also a very good and useful tool for finding information. The big problem with "Tag Clouds", and keywords in general, is maintaining them properly. Just like anything else, if everyone can add them willy-nilly its going to get out-of-hand very quickly.
And that's why you have moderators and other users-- AND the ability to ADD, EDIT, CONSOLIDATE, or DELETE tags. "Tag Management"-- and toss it out to all users, or at least some users to help maintain. You're right, if it gets muddied up its not worth much. But properly utilized it offers a major assist for finding posts, information, etc.
steinjr To successfully find stuff doing a database search on a computer (not just here), it helps to: a) Be able to spell search keywords right (not a problem in this case) b) Understand search string truncation or wildcard use (e.g search term "road" vs "roads") c) Understand the difference between "dirt road" / dirt OR road / dirt AND road Searching in the MR general forum for dirt road: 22 721 hits Searching in the general MR forum, for dirt AND road: 471 hits Searching in the general MR forum, for "dirt road" : 148 hits
To successfully find stuff doing a database search on a computer (not just here), it helps to:
a) Be able to spell search keywords right (not a problem in this case) b) Understand search string truncation or wildcard use (e.g search term "road" vs "roads") c) Understand the difference between "dirt road" / dirt OR road / dirt AND road
Searching in the MR general forum for dirt road: 22 721 hits Searching in the general MR forum, for dirt AND road: 471 hits Searching in the general MR forum, for "dirt road" : 148 hits
Where did you find out this information? Where is the Help page located? How do people who don't know what the site's verbage / syntax is know how to do that?
People say "go search" but if the tools-- or information for using the tools-- isn't known and available-- what good is that?
So *you* know, or figured out, how to use it-- bully for you!-- but not everyone else is computer or search savvy and would know to try different syntaxes, or indeed to try *any* syntax or make any attempt to creating a boolean expression to narrow down the results.
*I* didn't know that, for example, and I'm *really* good at searching for stuff, generally speaking.
dehusman: (paraphrasing) There needs to be a balance in the questioners / questions, particularly with respect to the simpler and more common questions.
I agree with you. And for that there oughta be an FAQ somewhere that gives out that type of information. Or better yet, IMO, an "FAQ / Archive" of some sort that people can consult to get themselves up to speed with basic questions and issues.
I personally think it is important that the information threads "stay alive" so that new points can be addressed, clarifications and corrections made, and stale / inaccurate / irrelevant information flagged and/or updated or removed. And also so that they don't fall off the radar screens of the "oldsters" who have the information.
If someone posts something in one of the FAQ threads, it bubbles to the top of the list of active threads. People ("oldsters" in particular) could then take a look and see if there's anything new or novel about the post (question) and if so answer it, if not ignore it. It would be a really easy to implement system that would (probably, IMO) work for everybody.
I have two points to make.
1. This forum is actually rather unique and IMO rather important in that it really does have a wide mix of experience and talent. In general, even total newbies with no talent can post here and receive encouragement. Further more, the range of interests discussed within the confines of the Model Railroad section is very broad.
2. Why a modeller moves on from this forum can not be easily generalized, so I think it is a bit too simplistic to think that as one becomes more experienced and proficient one moves on.
Perhaps a different slant is to consider focus. The hobby is very broad indeed. As a modeller becomes more experienced, they are likely to develop a particular passion for a particular aspect of the hobby. Examples might be a particular prototype, structure building, weathering, narrow gauge, you name it, the list goes on. The web contains specialist groups and forums that cater to these more focused interests.
So IMO it is not so much that people get "too good" for this forum, but that this forum is too broad.
If others are like me, this was my go-to place for many years. I now spend the bulk of my web time on more specialized forums, but do enjoy glancing around in here from time-to-time.
So, how do you make a very broad forum that has a little bit for everyone, also meet the needs of those that are looking for a more focused experience? I don't think you can without risking damaging the important role of this place. That being the entry way for many into this great hobby.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
As the poster of the original question that has now generated two long threads concerning the state of activity on this and other model railroading sites, let me offer some observations where I see significant problems that may, in part, be responsible.
Firstly, the hobby itself is simply too broad/diverse for any single website to handle it in a manner that fully pleases and excites everyone. At one end we have folks who are playing with their model trains at a level equivalent to kids in the 1950's with their Lionels. At the other end of this spectrum there are hobbyists whose modeling is on a par with the best special effects people in Hollywood and/or who run their trains with the same precision and regiment as do the real railroads.
This being so, those in the lowest tier feel many websites are far too advanced and snobbish, while at the same time the more advanced hobbyists look at the content of even many of the better Internet sites as annoyingly simplistic and too little on the mark in content. This is the genesis for both the rank newbies complaining and the more advanced hobbyists leaving for greener pastures. Personally, I very much identify with a few posters upstream who indicated that this site has very few threads that deal with the true modeling aspects of the hobby and I agree that this really is disappointing, given the history of our host's publication. I'm not sure a further division of the site is the answer, but some sort of promotion of the real nut and bolts of the modeling aspects hobby is very much needed here to contrast with the RTR subject matter and simple chatter that has largely taken over.
As to the help/researching question, I have very strong views. Those of us who are long time hobbyists started out purchasing a modest library of instructional texts covering every aspect of model railroading, supplemented by what we read in MR and RMC. I would have to say that 99% of the newbie questions that pop up here have easily found answers in the technical books sold by our host. Likewise, the CORRECT answers are given therein; in contrast to the 50-50 shot you have with many posted answers.
The problem seems to be two-fold. First, today's newbies don't feel obligated to buy books, or look up any information on their own, even though personally researching information has always been a basic part of this hobby. Secondly, these same folks want their answers both NOW and provided at no effort, nor expense, on their part. They feel somehow entitled to be provided answers and are downright offended if some poster responds by asking if they've tried looking up the info themselves, or suggests a potential research source rather than a direct answer.
Now I can't offer any quick fix for this problem, but I will point out that it definitely drives away or otherwise silences the accomplished and knowledgeable people on sites like this one. If not addressed in some manner, be assured it will result in this site eventually becoming nothing but newbies offering ill-founded advice to one another.
CNJ831
CNJ831The problem seems to be two-fold. First, today's newbies don't feel obligated to buy, or look up any information on their own, even though personally researching information has always been a basic part of this hobby.
Speaking only for myself, a large part of my regular hobby budget goes into finding and acquiring offline resources to utilize and place on my reference shelves. I think I have bought very nearly every MR-related book Kalmbach or Carstens ever published... with very few exceptions, and devour them with great relish (and a little salt) . Likewise I have invested in numerous textbooks and "prototype" references such as track engineering, railroad histories for the various roads I'm interested in, modeling guides, travel guides (where applicable) and picture books that illustrate the geographies I'm interested in at different times of the years and throughout different eras. I have purchased movies and DVD's that contain videos and visually-presented information about various aspects of the hobby and/or the prototype. I have obtained blueprints of facilities, lineside structures, schedules, track charts & diagrams, rule books, etc. to learn about the various details of the railroads I'm interested in, their operations and practices. I have probably downloaded 5-10 *gigs* of rail-related photos over the years depicting both prototype and model trains and related items. I have purchased very nearly every (not quite all, but certainly enough to give my postman a near hernia) back issue of Model Railroad, Railroad Model Craftsman, and a substantial but lesser number of other periodicals. I have recorded every train-related TV show or movie that's been aired on my cable system over the last 5 years, and I'm constantly searching the Net for more stuff and more info.
And I *still* consider myself a novice.
jwhitten dstarr Another plea. Try the search feature before asking a question. There are a lot of really good posts on nearly everything and search often brings them up. Instant gratification. Dstarr-- with all due respect and the highest regard, I suggest to you as gently as I can-- Go try it for yourself...1. Locate the "Search" feature in the right-hand pane2. Type in the words: "hand laying track" and hit the "Search" button3. Check out the results All EIGHT THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FOURTEEN *PAGES* worth of results.That's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 .... 8310, 8311, 8312, 8314 PAGES I'm not making that up-- try it yourself! John
I don't doubt it. It is not unusual for a search object to bury you in an avalanche of "stuff". You have to try again with a more restrictive search object. For instance "hand lay" AND turnout. Or "hand lay" AND ties". Or "hand lay" AND adhesive. Or what ever.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
John,I agree to a point with your observations.We will talk about the finer points at a later date.
I agree the new modeler need to step out on their own and look up the simple things then feel free to ask questions if they don't quite understand a given subject.Model Railroading is a hobby that requires no super understanding-even a novice can lay track and switches on a 4x8 and hook up 2 wires(they did that long before forums) and if they have any prior experience building kits they can assemble the average structure kit..
Sound cold?
Not really.
Whys that?
The new modeler signs up on a forum and asks basic questions only to be told by well meaning modelers that he needs DCC,sound,not to build a 4x8' layout,you need high end cars and locomotives,use brand X track,no,use brand A track etc.
I'm surprised the poor fella or gal doesn't leave screaming vowing to find another hobby before the sun goes down!
How some love to over complicate the simple basic questions with their personal modeling styles and preferences while forgetting to answer a basic question with a old fashion basic answer which what the new modeler is asking...This applies for questions from intermediate modelers as well.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE The new modeler signs up on a forum and asks basic questions only to be told by well meaning modelers that he needs DCC,sound,not to build a 4x8' layout,you need high end cars and locomotives,use brand X track,no,use brand A track etc. I'm surprised the poor fella or gal doesn't leave screaming vowing to find another hobby before the sun goes down! How some love to over complicate the simple basic questions with their personal modeling styles and preferences while forgetting to answer a basic question with a old fashion basic answer which what the new modeler is asking...This applies for questions from intermediate modelers as well.
Larry, I agree with you 100%!
BRAKIEJohn,I agree to a point with your observations.We will talk about the finer points at a later date. I agree the new modeler need to step out on their own and look up the simple things then feel free to ask questions if they don't quite understand a given subject.Model Railroading is a hobby that requires no super understanding-even a novice can lay track and switches on a 4x8 and hook up 2 wires(they did that long before forums) and if they have any prior experience building kits they can assemble the average structure kit.. Sound cold? Not really. Whys that? The new modeler signs up on a forum and asks basic questions only to be told by well meaning modelers that he needs DCC,sound,not to build a 4x8' layout,you need high end cars and locomotives,use brand X track,no,use brand A track etc. I'm surprised the poor fella or gal doesn't leave screaming vowing to find another hobby before the sun goes down! How some love to over complicate the simple basic questions with their personal modeling styles and preferences while forgetting to answer a basic question with a old fashion basic answer which what the new modeler is asking...This applies for questions from intermediate modelers as well.
Larry,
I don't think that sounds cold at all-- or unreasonable. People with those types of questions should look it up in the FAQ.... except for that little detail that there isn't one. In reading through the responses on these two threads, plus seeing firsthand the responses on a lot of the "newbie" post threads (i.e., "Go search") and I hear a lot of people ("oldsters" let's call 'em) complaining about "newbies" asking simplistic questions over-and-over and them having to answer 'em (or feeling like they do).
So is the right response to bash the newbies for asking questions?
Or is the right response to fix it so they have better access to introductory information so they don't have to?
(Of course it isn't that simple-- since somebody has to sit down and do all that work to catalog everything and pull it together).
As to why "some love to overcomplicate the simple basic question"-- that one's easy-- they know they're asking something very basic-- and either haven't or don't want to put in the time to research it, or else haven't been able to locate the information for some reason-- and they don't want to come across as idiots when they post. So they think by "jazzing up" the question they'll sound more "intellectual" or something.
Again it gets back to the funny feelings people have when they're "newbies" *about* being newbies. And the way other people think of them / treat them sometimes-- they're *not* children and yet they need training and guidance sometimes as they get their "sea legs" in the hobby.
And I agree with you that all the new stuff-- DCC, expensive locomotives and rolling stock, super detailed everything-- can probably be overwhelming to the uninitiated. And especially the price tags if you're not ready for it and unknowing. That alone can be enough to make you fall down if you're not already sitting down. And I'm not saying that to complain about it, its just a fact of the hobby. You either accept it, or leave, or scratchbuild-- those are pretty much your options in a nutshell with respect to price. IMO of course.
jwhitten not everyone else is computer or search savvy and would know to try different syntaxes, or indeed to try *any* syntax or make any attempt to creating a boolean expression to narrow down the results.
True. So either people learn, or they don't learn.Some learning can be done by reading, some by trying and seeing what happens.
The knowledge that AND could be used came from simply clicking on "more search options" next to the search result, and observing that there was a textbox labeled "find all words". So I enter three words in this and clicked on search. I was returned to the first search window, with the three words I had written in the box on top separated by AND in capital letters.
Spending your time on complaining about how hard it is to find information doesn't actually assist in learning stuff. Reading stuff and trying things do.
Up to each of us how we spend our time :-)
Smile,Stein
John asks:So is the right response to bash the newbies for asking questions?
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That's just plain wrong..We need to help the newbie not insult the poor guy or gal with a slap in the face for asking questions.Still they need to look some things up since there are videos showing how to ballast-all for free..
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I think you missed my point.That is directed toward those that answers the basic question with their personal modeling styles and preferences instead of a straight basic answer.Example..Would a MRC Tech II 1400 be enough power for my 4x8..Up jumps Sammy the "expert" and says Why not go DCC?..
That has nothing to do with the question other then Sammy's DCC preference..Sammy should have answered Yes,the 1400 will fill your needs.Basic question/basic answer.
-----------------------------
Once again,one doesn't need the high dollar models to enjoy this hobby..Athearn,Atlas (Trainman) and Accurail has a sufficient number of cars less then $20.00.One doesn't need DCC or sound especially just starting the hobby.
So far, I see the prevailing issues are rudeness/snippiness and repetitive or basic general questions that can be easily researched without wasting someones time.
First, my take on rudeness. Most people are very soft spoken about things and always offer words of encouragement. Others just state what they feel would make the project better. Example: "The weathering on the hopper looks great! Keep it up!" or " Looks pretty good. I think it needs just a little less rust on the sides, and a few of the down strokes are angled. Keep an eye on making sure the down strokes are as straight as possible. I like the way the trucks look. Keep it up you'll get there" or "You're down strokes are not straight and the rust is too much." and finally " Why do people say this is good? It looks like a 5th grader did it. Do not pamper these people. They need to know when their work looks like crap. (and then of course the grand excuse for the wording) This leads to poor modeling. And look up the word Critique" The first is of no real help except to encourage the modeler to continue. Not really a bad thing, but not great if the project needs. Or maybe the poster feels it is a good job. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The second is a sugar coated assessment. Provides both encouragement and assistance. Not a bad thing for someone starting out. The addition of something that is done well is a plus, but by not mentioning it one assumes it must at least not be bad. The third, is short, sweet, to the point and effective. Not rude, just directly related to the issue as the poster sees it. Also perfectly acceptable. The last serves absolutely no purpose and is what I consider rude and uncalled for. The same attitude as in the final response is also the kind I see when someone reads something someone wrote that they take issue with. Disagreeing is a fact of life that cannot be avoided. Resorting to insults is a sign of immaturity and a lack of security in your statements or idea and a deep seated realization that your argument is weak and you know it. I'll bolster my position by blasting you.
Second, my take on basic questions. I read Brakie's last two posts and wholeheartedly agree. I don't post many questions because I do use research tools and quite frankly, by freelancing and in construction with no plans of realistic prototypical operations my RR research is very small. I do believe everyone should do research themselves. That does not mean I don't feel people can't post simple questions, because not counting what's a 0-4-0? What is simple to some is not to others. What that is, is case based.
However, as a newbie once, and I still consider myself one compared to many here, entering into an established forum is sort of like entering a club. Many are a bit shy of popping in and not being accepted. I myself had signed up with a couple forums and this one is where I received the best welcome. Many of you took the time to welcome me to the forum. Many more than anywhere else. That really cracked the ice. Next came the dreaded first post. "What do I ask? What could I say? Will they think I'm stupid? Will they snub me because I don't know?" I'm an adult. 48 years of one, over 21 years of military experience so entering new established places and interacting is old hat, but yes, I was acting like a little kid going to kindergarten for the first time in a forum where I don‘t even have to look anyone in the face and you wouldn‘t know me if I stood next to you in the bar. I don't recall if my finger was in my mouth or my nose at the time or not. Many post a question to get their feet wet. My question was in regards to upgrading an old AHM loco. Some answered many of course did not. Totally understandable. The bulk of the answers here were "not worth it but since it was your first loco as a child then maybe..... Etc". Sorta like I wouldn't but if you want to hey why not. The other forums were, well let's just say not so understanding. Usually though, the Trainset series of questions or DC DCC are the ones asked. Many will answer, many will not. Who does not need to answer, again IMHO, is the ones who answer using the phrase "waste of my time". How can that be? No one forced you to respond. If the title is referencing the question of a subject you've seen or are tired of responding too, or if it's vague and you click on the thread and read the OP and make that decision. Move on. The time it takes to click "quick reply" let the thing load the reply box, type your response, click the post button, wait for the thing to do it's thing and actually post, is the true waste of time. An action you and you alone chose to do. So who's fault is that. If your non drinking neighbor is having a BBQ and you choose to go over and sit down, do you proclaim you are wasting your time by sitting there because there's no beer? Makes no sense.
As far as the decline of the forums. Who knows. But consider this. People complain and everyone is being told research, the library, to google, to search the archives of the forums first before asking a question. They do. They find several answers weed them down to the one they can use. No need to post a question. And now people complain because the forums are turning into a more conversation based thing. Well, can't ask a question because the answer is already out there if you look, so what else is there to do except sit and wonder why the postings are dropping. What do you want? Can't have it both ways.
Just my opinion, yours may vary.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
TMarshAnd now people complain because the forums are turning into a more conversation based thing. Well, can't ask a question because the answer is already out there if you look, so what else is there to do except sit and wonder why the postings are dropping. What do you want? Can't have it both ways. Just my opinion, yours may vary.
And now people complain because the forums are turning into a more conversation based thing. Well, can't ask a question because the answer is already out there if you look, so what else is there to do except sit and wonder why the postings are dropping. What do you want? Can't have it both ways.
Interesting point. I said something similar myself in a private post recently
Just wanted to quickly add that in no way do I intend on bashing this, or really any, forum. Each has it's target and they all do what they were intended to do.
As far as posters go, peoples attitudes are as individual as chili recipes. Something each of us has to deal with everyday. I made a comment about not patronizing a business because of the attitudes. That was an example of not being able to avoid the situation. Not intended to relay my feelings for this forum as it is. There are so few people who convey that attitude it is easily ignored. Some remarks are difficult to brush off, but the OVERWHELMING majority of folks here are decent folk who want to help, or if certain circumstances involving a question arise, do just what I suggest. They just move on.
Each person views things in their own way and that is fantastic. As long as people realize just because you do, not everyone likes bread in their tomatoes, things should go fine.
I have not visited every forum there is, but I must say, of the ones I have, this forum is frequented by the best overall group you could find.
As far as the mods are concerned and jumping to the gun, an opinion. It's best to fight a fire when it's small than when it roars. There have been three threads that in all probability should have erupted into WW III. I'm sure they are being closely watched, but they are still here. If they truly jump the gun they would have been shut down pages ago. Kudos to all for keeping the thing civil and allowing each to express their opinions without reuslting in what we complain about. I love to be proven wrong on stuff like this.
OK, so it wasn't so quick. I intended too.
It seems ironic that we have almost 150 posts in two threads about the decline in posting.
- Harry
There are times when just about everything is said that can be said. The silence just might be me working on the next little item. But will take a time before it comes to light.
Personally I have pretty much gotten out of the Hobby. I do hold on to the few On30 and a odd piece of HO scale item and quit going to shows and such. Eventually I will be the scary monster lurking in the basement that the neighborhood kids will avoid when the sun goes down :lol:
Posting in forums is great. But only if you have something good to share. Everything else is like the wind, going all around and sometimes making a storm over nothing.