Asking if you can afford to buy something is like asking yourself if you should marry someone. The fact you asked the question should be answer enough. I would never buy a luxury if I had to ask if I could afford it. Following this rule my whole 53 years now has me in a position of spending what I want when I want on Trains. It also got me the perfect wife. I just wished I found her at twenty instead of forty. I did have some fun before she came along though.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
DrilineI agree with you as far as the enjoyment of scratch building and detailing your own locomotives which by the way I have done. Mine was an SD70MAC in the Burlington Northern executive scheme before Kato came out with one. I bought the kato, and now my scratch built loco sits in a drawer.
I'd be interested to see a series of photos comparing the two.
John
jwhittenI do not use credit cards, I think they are a huge rip-off and way too seductive.
Credit cards are a necessity for travel and some online purchasing. I have the fortitude to pay my card of monthly. I have no balance. They are not seductive to me, but simply a means to an end.
DrilinejwhittenI do not use credit cards, I think they are a huge rip-off and way too seductive. Credit cards are a necessity for travel and some online purchasing. I have the fortitude to pay my card of monthly. I have no balance. They are not seductive to me, but simply a means to an end.
I do have a debit card which is what I use for almost everything including travel and online purchasing. But I got wise years ago and instead of getting credit cards, I just built-up a cash buffer in my account so that I have what I need when I need it. And then I only spend only what I have to spend and let the rest accumulate or else invest as desired. Since I don't carry credit, I have no need to 'pay off my monthly balance'.
After reading through this entire thread, I find myself in agreement with CNJ! The manufacturers who are making things I might possibly use are 'way over my price line. (They are also on the far side of a rather wide ocean and a dismal rate of exchange!) As a result, I buy things to kitbash, not to run as-is or as meant to be (if a kit.) So, if the mechanism of a mid-priced steamer is appropriate to my needs, I don't care if the (fillintheblank) doesn't have all the fancy doo-widgets molded into or attached to the boiler that I'm going to deep-six. As for appropriate road name and number...
As for finances, I am financially secure and comfortable with my current income. Modeling supplies get bought out of what's left after the mortgage and household expenses are paid. We own our vehicles, and have a reserve cash stash in case we need to replace one. So, if I want that beautiful brass 6-car DMU set I can either save for it or kitbash and scratchbuild a suitable substitute. (At the price asked, I expect that it will be long gone before I could even afford to inquire...) My wife's golf is handled the same way.
Do I feel deprived because I can't won't whip out my Mastercard and order those DMUs? No more than I feel deprived because I can't afford a Ferrari. Trains are a discretionary luxury purchase; you can't eat them, wear them, live in them or drive them to the Commissary. I already have enough rolling stock for my simple purposes, and I'm very happy with what I have.
(But those DMUs sure are tempting...)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - within my budget)
CNJ's position is where I'm at right now. Anything that does attract my attention tends to become kitbash fodder eventually.
The credit card thing is interesting in that we have one card that I use strictly for convenience sake. I don't even use it monthly and if I do I put $$$ into it the next week. The problem with credit cards with a lot of people is one of not being "wise to the trap" that they can become. I see that a lot in the retail sector--I have relatives that work in it. They talk about it ALL the time--stand in a line up at a clothing store and see how many times you end up with people having to use what little $$$ they have to buy their stuff, or walk out without it, as their card is refused.
As said before---save up to get the piece.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Interesting discussion. I have reached the point in life where I could, if I so chose,probably purchase any model railroading item I wanted. Yet as I've reached that point, my focus is such I don't want near as much. Most of the full color ads (that manufacturers pay good money for) are wasted on me since the product doesn't fit my goals. (southeastern short line in the transition era). I need very few locomotives and in fact there seem to be few steam engines on the market for my theme, so I would be in the kitbashing & detail adding mode anyway. My last locomotive purchase was four or five years ago, though I may add one this year.
Same thing for my structures. I do a lot of kitbashing and scratchbuilding to get the structure to fit the theme and location. For example the kits by FSM and others are beautiful in the ads, but I've never bought one because they don't fit my theme. I've even begun handlaying track rather than using flex track because I prefer the look and the enjoyment, and the cost is lower.
There was a discussion above about the total cost & time to modify a model vs purchasing RTR. But there's another way to look at it -- "playtime value." Cost wise, the dollar per hour of modeling fun falls pretty much on the side of kitbashing/scratchbuilding. Let's say I spend $100 on some RTR structure. The playtime I get from that consists of two minutes of putting it on the layout. However, if I scratchbuild a structure or track, I get several hours of play time out of that same $100. What this means is I probably spend less per year that many of the modern locomotives cost individually.
I think this also extends to the layout as a whole. The press has convinced us the only way to have fun is to build a large layout with dozens of locomotives and hundreds of cars running 24/7 schedules. And, if that's your bag, go for it. This hobby has room for all possible themes. But don't get caught up in following the crowd just because the "experts" say that is the only way to have fun. I encourage everyone to think about what they want out of any hobby and how much time & money they want to put into it. A mid-western TT&TO racetrack will only prove frustrating if your heart is really in Peterborough NH. As will that highly detailed S scale K-27, if you really want Clinchfield gray & yellow hauling long trains of hoppers along a single track basement filling line in N. And heck, if what really turns you on is building a 4x8 so you can finish quickly and move on to a different theme, then do so.
Right now i have a stable job that alows for a large train budget but it can go months between purchases. When i was younger i bought everything that was cool that fit with the latest idea for the layout. These days i am very paticular on what i am looking for. So i might purchase alot one month, then go months with no purchases at all. One good thing came from my buying spree when i was younger, i am building a 18ft n scale paper mill and i am kitbashing alot of ho and n scale kits into it. I am up over ten kits being used that i bought for other projects that never happened.
jwhittenI do have a debit card which is what I use for almost everything including travel and online purchasing.
That's scary. One thing I won't ever use is my debit card for travel or online. Your entire bank account is subject to theft. By using a credit card you are only liable for $50 is someone steals the card, or some clerk on the other end of the phone line decides to steal it. At least that is what I'm told.
Driline jwhittenI do have a debit card which is what I use for almost everything including travel and online purchasing. That's scary. One thing I won't ever use is my debit card for travel or online. Your entire bank account is subject to theft. By using a credit card you are only liable for $50 is someone steals the card, or some clerk on the other end of the phone line decides to steal it. At least that is what I'm told.
Very much dependent on who you got the card through. My bank's Visa card, for example, works in pretty much the same matter in that there is a $50 limit as well. But either way I watch my cards closely
Credit Cards - I have a whole pocket full, mostly with with 5 digit credit limits, and so does my wife - BUT they are simply a convenience in place of cash - which I do carry and use as well. From where I sit, either you know how to manage money or you don't. Being self employed credit cards are the fastest and easiest way for small businesses like mine to do business. Much better than dozens of open accounts with suppliers all over town to have to pay each month.
We pay our credit cards in full every month, except for some rare, very large purchase or emergency. And often when we don't, it is because of special no interest deals. Some are exclusively for business, some personal.
Since I have the means and the decipline to pay the bill when it comes, I have no need for debit cards - they do scare me with such direct access to the bank account.
Another aspect of Barry's orginal question goes to value and how you preceive it. For me, there is nothing any one HO scale model locomotive could be or do that would part me from a $1,000 or likely even $500. So that perception of value controls what I will buy.
Just like if I hit the lottery tomorrow I would not pay $100,000 for car, in my mind, some car I drive everyday is not worth any more than maybe $50,000 tops, and $30,000 is more like my practical limit.
Some people see this differently, they are more inclined to think in percentages, so if they make more, than their house, car, clothes, etc, all need to reflect that - not me, I'm happy to keep my excess in the bank (or the safe).
Sheldon
DrilinejwhittenI do have a debit card which is what I use for almost everything including travel and online purchasing. That's scary. One thing I won't ever use is my debit card for travel or online. Your entire bank account is subject to theft. By using a credit card you are only liable for $50 is someone steals the card, or some clerk on the other end of the phone line decides to steal it. At least that is what I'm told.
It has the exact same protections as a credit card-- I've already checked (and unfortunately had occasion to "prove it" a few years back). It also has the same provisions for extending mfgr's warranties, collects user points redeemable for good stuff, and all of the other typical credit card pluses except that it is a debit card.
jwhittenDrilineI agree with you as far as the enjoyment of scratch building and detailing your own locomotives which by the way I have done. Mine was an SD70MAC in the Burlington Northern executive scheme before Kato came out with one. I bought the kato, and now my scratch built loco sits in a drawer. I'd be interested to see a series of photos comparing the two. John
Ok....Which one is LIVE and which one is MEMOREX?
Now you know why I shelved my feeble attempt at creating an SD-70MAC and purchased the KATO. It did however provide endless hours of fun and most importantly experience.
Would I do it again? Only if no one makes the loco I'm looking for. Otherwise its RTR baby all the way.
Driline Now you know why I shelved my feeble attempt at creating an SD-70MAC and purchased the KATO. It did however provide endless hours of fun and most importantly experience. Would I do it again? Only if no one makes the loco I'm looking for. Otherwise its RTR baby all the way.
Hey!---I'd say you still have a dang good looking loco there in your built version
And, as you say, if you can't find the one you're looking for you have the skills to build the thing too.
DrilineOk....Which one is LIVE and which one is MEMOREX?
I think you did a pretty good job. While I can tell which is which, I wouldn't be ashamed to run either one.
To me Value is also influenced by what my layout plans involve. I'm not going to buy a $400 SD70MAC if my layout calls only for a ATLAS RS that costs approx $200(by the time I pay for all that lovely GST/PST soon to be HST). Not to mention that the large lokes did not work very well on warbly light rail--that is what my 70's/80's era branch/shortline survives on.
And, in this case, value is based on whether it'll work on my layout
Now, what I'm looking for is what that affordability means in terms of what you as a potential buyer of a steam/deisel locomotive can buy and how that differentiates from what you would desire. Just how broad of a gap is that for you as a buyer?
It's not a question of affordability as much as a question of availability. I have very road and era specific criteria (SP, post WWII up to 1955, branchline orientation, steam only). With the exception of an SP P-6, I can get what I need in the second hand brass market although I wouldn't mind some small SP steam in modern plastic. Since no one's manufacturing SP C-8/9/10's, T-28/31/32's, TW-8's or P-6's in plastic, the manufacturers ain't getting my locomotive money. I have no desire for Glacier Park, PSC or Division Point brass eye candy.
Whether or not I or anyone else who isn't into the large size steamer du jour represent an untapped market remains to be seen since no one yet seems to have the guts (other than Bachmann to a certain exent) to go after modestly proportioned prototypically correct steam. Bachmann's Spectrum offerings, while good and modestly priced, do have an Eastern bias to them (if it's east of Salt Lake City, it's East).
Andre
andrechapelon Now, what I'm looking for is what that affordability means in terms of what you as a potential buyer of a steam/deisel locomotive can buy and how that differentiates from what you would desire. Just how broad of a gap is that for you as a buyer? It's not a question of affordability as much as a question of availability. I have very road and era specific criteria (SP, post WWII up to 1955, branchline orientation, steam only). With the exception of an SP P-6, I can get what I need in the second hand brass market although I wouldn't mind some small SP steam in modern plastic. Since no one's manufacturing SP C-8/9/10's, T-28/31/32's, TW-8's or P-6's in plastic, the manufacturers ain't getting my locomotive money. I have no desire for Glacier Park, PSC or Division Point brass eye candy. Whether or not I or anyone else who isn't into the large size steamer du jour represent an untapped market remains to be seen since no one yet seems to have the guts (other than Bachmann to a certain exent) to go after modestly proportioned prototypically correct steam. Bachmann's Spectrum offerings, while good and modestly priced, do have an Eastern bias to them (if it's east of Salt Lake City, it's East). Andre
I think Andre is right on about this. Based on the modelers I know personally, there is a large untapped market for smaller and even specialized steam - BECAUSE:
Many do have small layouts and are concerned about appearance and good operation.
Many still do freelance or model in a casual way - so models need not be only their "favorite" road, especially if they are offered unlettered.
One modeler in our group has no problem with "close enough" even though he models the B&O. He has BLI Y6b's and Spectrun Heavy Mountians that he has lettered B&O. He has a ton of stuff, but is not willing to pay 4 figure prices for a brass EM1.
Many others in out group still freelance, so unletered versions of the locos Andre listed, would likely appeal to many of them.
I think lots of people buy what is available - right now they are buying Big Boys and other monsters because they are out there.
Bachmann has clearly deminstrated the demand for smaller steam. After how many years they are one again producing another run of the 2-8-0?
Andre, I understand your view of east/west, but thank goodness somebody has paid attention to something from the east that does NOT say PRR.
Actually, I would bet the main reason Mantua lost market share was lack of detail in general more so than the "generic" factor.
Bachmann's 2-8-0 is only "close" for every roadname it comes in, yet they sell endlessly.
andrechapelonWhether or not I or anyone else who isn't into the large size steamer du jour represent an untapped market remains to be seen since no one yet seems to have the guts (other than Bachmann to a certain exent) to go after modestly proportioned prototypically correct steam. Bachmann's Spectrum offerings, while good and modestly priced, do have an Eastern bias to them (if it's east of Salt Lake City, it's East).
Interesting commentary on a weird market. The only things that do get made are "proven money makers" yet incredibly these same money makers have also "proven" to me just how narrow that interest in MR has become. There is always some degree of risk when it comes to doing anything but excuse me---at some point markets have to be nurtured and grown.
There are "Other" MR's out there who would like product too---
And in the meantime---back to the woodshed with me I go----
Mantua never really adapted to a changing market. Their bread and butter locomotives were essentially 50+ year old designs by the time Mantua called it quits. At the end, they were throwing random detail parts on generic engines and selling them as "collectibles". Yeah, right. The old designs may have been a "cash cow" at one point, but Mantua forgot that: 1. Cows eventually quit giving milk and: 2. They die.
I wonder if Bowser could have held on to steam kits longer if they'd decided 15 or 20 years ago to use the Pennsy mechanisms to produce non-Pennsy steam. Fer instance, the M1 chassis could have been used to to do any number of 72-73" driver 4-8-2's.
andrechapelonMantua never really adapted to a changing market. Their bread and butter locomotives were essentially 50+ year old designs by the time Mantua called it quits. At the end, they were throwing random detail parts on generic engines and selling them as "collectibles". Yeah, right. The old designs may have been a "cash cow" at one point, but Mantua forgot that: 1. Cows eventually quit giving milk and: 2. They die.
andrechapelonI wonder if Bowser could have held on to steam kits longer if they'd decided 15 or 20 years ago to use the Pennsy mechanisms to produce non-Pennsy steam. Fer instance, the M1 chassis could have been used to to do any number of 72-73" driver 4-8-2's.
I have often wondered the same things about both these lines. Mantua could have easily followed Cary and a long list of modelers in ways to adapt their line to more and better prototypes without starting completely from scratch.
And, likewise, bowser it seems could have done way more with what they had.
The Mantua revival of the 90's was way too little, way too late but it seems most of the parts where there for much better models than they bothered to make. I guess we will never know why more was not done, it seems like it would have been so easy.
I have a late production Mantua Atlantic which I easily turned into a very nice model. Yes, it is freelanced, but again, very close to a number of prototypes.
Seems that someone at Mantua in the later days never had any vision beyond the toy/collector market and did not understand the "modeler" market well enough.
Bowser seemed to make the oposite mistake, never making their kits accessable enough to the average newer modeler, until they tried some RTR when it was likely aready too late. And, staying too intrenched in mostly PRR.
This post has had some interestng comments. My situation is that I retired 9 years ago and am now drawing a reasonable pension and social security - the old fixed income thing. So a couple years ago I decided to adopt a household budget including a set amount for model railroading every month. Do I stick to it - probably not, but I do have a sense of where I am spending and can adapt from one month to the next to make it work.
When it comes to the model railroad I do have a few hard and fast rules - I don't buy anything on credit that I can't pay off the following month, I will take advantage of layaways and I price shop every major purchase at my LHS and on line including Ebay. This strategy has helped me maybe buy more 'stuff' with my monthly budget as well as being satisfied with everything I purchase - maybe this is what I achieve.
I am not a collector and brass steamers don't interest me - but I do buy pieces that fit my theme and if they end up in layaway for awhile, it's okay. In fact, I have two locos there now because of my desire to own them but my budget at the time didn't allow it - both were on sale and if I would have had to pay full price, they would still be on the shelf. There are pieces that I just won't even contemplate because they are far too expensive - I think the most I have ever paid for anything was $275 and that was in an Ebay auction. So far I have able to manage the whole desire vs affordability ratio when it comes to the railroad in such a way that I am still able to travel, eat out rather well from time to time and enjoy a good bottle of wine while watching the trains go by.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....