tomikawaTT I don't see model railroading as a religion, where we are all obligated to collect converts to our own beliefs.
I don't see model railroading as a religion, where we are all obligated to collect converts to our own beliefs.
Yeah, some people proselytize, trying to convince someone they won't be happy/saved unless they model in the same scale as they. Different scales have their advantages and disadvantages. Any choice is a compromise.
The other extreme peeves too. If people don't stop saying something like the supererogatory "it's your layout, do what you want," I'm going to start kicking the sofa.
Mark
A few years ago I started out modeling N scale. I was running about 5 DCC loco's and accumulating a decent amount of rolling stock. One day I was looking to upgrade my bachmann starter DCC system and was trying NCE and Digitraxx. Paul at Linns Junction pulled out an NCE power cab and hooked it up. He fired up an HO sound equipped loco. I still love/hate him for that because a couple of years later I have a dozen DCC sound equipped loco's and my layout quadrupled in size. My latest is a second Atlas Gold MP15dc I picked up this weekend. The other deciding factor was one night when I decided to change out the couplers on an N loco. It took me almost 2 hours and a lot of grief. It takes less than 5 minutes in a typical HO loco.
Springfield PA
I would like to hope that we are intelligent enough to find and model in the optimum scale (or scales) for each of us. Debating about which is better (or worse) makes about as much sense as debating about which lady you should have married on your tenth anniversary.
I model what I model in the scale I model it in (which is neither HO nor N) for very personal reasons, and the choice is non-negotiable. Presumably, others are doing the same. I respect the choices each of us have made and see no reason to EVER tell someone they have chosen the, "Wrong," scale. (Wrong for you, maybe. You aren't wearing the other guy's moccasins.)
I don't see model railroading as a religion, where we are all obligated to collect converts to our own beliefs. I see it more as a spectrum, where each person selects the line or lines that they find most satisfying. As for discussions about This versus That, Shakespeare said it all...
Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in a most unlikely but totally logical scale)
Jim wrote:
For an unlimited budget, sure! I'd go for that. Unfortunately I can't keep up with the costs of one scale, let alone two.
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Jim,Try doing that on a limited budget.. I order HO only as needed or if there is a car I like I will add it to my N Scale order-yes I have received e-mails asking I knew that was a HO car especially if I was ordering Athearn N Scale cars and added a Athearn HO car.
I just turn 62 last month..I don't want to give up my remaining HO in case my eyesight starts to fade..I won't be buying that much more N Scale other then few vehicles,some more freight cars and scenery items.I have accomplish my goal of having a home layout.
I do plan on buying 2 of those foobie HO CR GP60Ms along with 16-20 57' PFE reefers for club use..I think that will make a crowd pleaser during the county fair.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Its all and the room you have. I'm a diehard HO'er nothing against N-scalers but its the room you have and what you want to portray. I started with a 4' x 8' and grew from there.
4 x 8 was all the room I had. Now I got 25' x 30' basement and the room for what I want.
I got in to HO when N didn't have the detail that I wanted and I stuck with HO. As I have aged it has been a good choice for me. Now with N scale I could downtown Seattle in my basement with the room I have now. So the choice is the room you have to what you want to portray whether is steam or modern. Some of the other posts here really show what you can do with the two scales you are talking about here.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
jeffrey-wimberly Looking at it from my own viewpoint, HO is easier to see, N is harder to see. I modeled in N Scale back in the 80's but now have little to feeling in my hands so handling the smaller stuff is more difficult, hence my decision to go with HO. I would have gone with O Scale but I don't have the room for a believable layout in that scale.
Looking at it from my own viewpoint, HO is easier to see, N is harder to see. I modeled in N Scale back in the 80's but now have little to feeling in my hands so handling the smaller stuff is more difficult, hence my decision to go with HO. I would have gone with O Scale but I don't have the room for a believable layout in that scale.
Thats me - N is too small for my eyes, and my close up vision is reasonably good for a 51 year old. When I was 20 years old, I loved N but there wasn't the rolling stock available that I wanted. Now there are tunnel motors etc, but its now simply too small for my eyes.
How about combining both scales on one layout. By slightly raising the N scale, (placed directly behind the HO scale), and using SceniKing sectional photo panorama, one can achieve great "forced perspective". Bob Hahn
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rjake4454 Your layout is outstanding. I've said this before, but thanks so much for posting pics of your work.
Your layout is outstanding. I've said this before, but thanks so much for posting pics of your work.
Hi,
Thanks a lot for your answer, this kind of answer push me to share and to improve my skills.
Thanks a lot.
Cheers.
Marc
stevechurch2222 I am considering building a two level layout with N Scale on the lower level and HO Scale on the top level,that way I can have the two scales separate.
I am considering building a two level layout with N Scale on the lower level and HO Scale on the top level,that way I can have the two scales separate.
I think you should reverse the scales. N scale would look better on top. Ho scale is big enough that it will still look good below.
Today Nscale details and mechnicals quality is equivalent of HO.
Sometimes N is superior.
The rest is your own feeling and suggestion.
You could do a lot whith Nscale in the same place of a HO layout , nearly the double...
You can obtain trains running through the scenery and lost in the hills like the real things, something difficult to obtain whith HO.
Speaking about "old eyes modeler", I beleive it's just a personal feeling; I am now 50 and my eyes are going slowly down but I will stay whith Nscale and have no problems to build small things.
If you want to do fine scale model, you have the same problem whith tiny things in HO or Nscale.
Both need perfect track laying to avoid derailments but it's real in any scale.
All the company are offered in Nscale like the cars and there is also the knuckle couplers whith delayed action.
About brass in Nscale, I beleive they are too expensive for the running quality they offer and they aren't often detailed like their plastic counterparts.
If I have to redo a choice I will use Nscale again whithout any doubt.
Here are some pics of some models I have done in Nscale.
You can also check my pics of my layout at www.Nscale.org click personnal album, click letter "M", search Marc Magnus album. On this site there is a lot of magnificient Nscale layout.
I've considered buying some N scale equipment and testing out the forced perspective idea, of course, I could never pull it off, so its just an excuse for me to buy some N scale stuff
You have to admit, the quality of N scale engines and rolling stock today is amazing. The detail rivals and surpasses a lot in HO even. With companies like Kato, Athearn, and BLI/PCM you can't go wrong (although BLI's delay or possibly even cancellation of the Mountain in N scale is very frustrating and disappointing.)
Actually its the brass models in N, at least some of them that seem to disappoint me the most. Recently I saw a brass 6-4-4-6 on ebay, made by Key Imports I think, and there was no operating headlight even crafted into it, it was simply painted on. The price was over $1,000 it just doesn't seem worth it. When you go that small, I think you should be able to see some sort of light or illumination, but thats just me. I'm also not sure as to how well brass n scale engines run.
Yet another HO vs N fight! Whoopee! Here's my on the topic. N is for NO! HO, said three times makes you either Santa or the Green Giant. What we really need is more hobbyists in 1:1 scale. I know it is a space hog and rather noisy for your neighbors, but at least in 1:1 you don't have to squint to count rivets. Isn't it really a matter of givens and druthers? My givens, low budget and existing inventory of HO items, force me to remain an HO enthusiast. Since the OP is new, he can go after his druthers more than I could, but what are his givens? Space? What are his druthers? Top notch scenery or realistic operations? Mainline class A prototype or shortline specialty railroad? Then again we do go back to eyesight and manual dexterity. I can see and my fingers work but I took over an hour to install ONE spring loaded coupler in HO. Best choice, look at the layouts in MR, disregard the scale but look at what about them you like, and make a list of your druthers, then apply those in order of importance to your decision.
Free N scale tank car and I'll trust you for the postage later.
BRAKIE Ulrich,I agree.. Sounds more like a boxing match..I can imagine Michael Buffer doing his shout thing before he introduces the boxers.
Ulrich,I agree..
Sounds more like a boxing match..I can imagine Michael Buffer doing his shout thing before he introduces the boxers.
At least there is no verbal Kung Fu fighting
yet---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Is this a legal question?
Why is it always vs.?
HO vs. N?
DCC vs. DC?
AC vs. DC?
Smoke vs. no-smoking steamers?
Sound vs. "Silence"?
Whatever the choice is, there are pros and cons for each item - and that leaves it up to the individual to decide.
If it is a legal issue, I shall plead guilty on the accounts of being a model railroader - enjoying all of the above!
Geared Steam HO is best.
HO is best.
Hah! got a chuckle out of the brevity of it.
As an N-Scaler on his first layout, I'd have to say it's for the railfan aspect of long views on sweeping curves. Detail in N Scale is good and partly a function of how much attention you want to pay to it.
I grew up watching SP, WP and D&RGW in the 60's and 70's. Mountain View, Niles Canyon, Auburn, Donner, Feather River Canyon, Winnemucca NV, Carlin, Pequop Summit, Salt Lake City, Price, Green River (UP), Colorado River, Moffat, Eldorado Canyon - I love those tunnels and mountains and sweeping vistas. And tunnel motors. All doable in N Scale.
When I heard DCC allowed for Multiple Units (MU) and I could string a bunch of tunnel motors and SD-45 together, I was hooked.
I haven't really used HO so I can't speak from personal experience, but it seems that If you're more into the detail of the trains and scenery rather than the vistas, then HO may be for you. They both have a lot of functionality and options.
Eric
I'm kinda likin this stuff
If space is a point, don't forget narrow gauge. The new H0 RTR Blackstones take less than 18'' radius and look still good.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
TrainsRMe1Hey all I have to say is: eNticeing, eNgageing, iNlove with Nscale man!!!!!!!!!! Happyrails,
Hey all I have to say is: eNticeing, eNgageing, iNlove with Nscale man!!!!!!!!!!
Happyrails,
Better yet - Superb, Spectacular, Scenic, Sscale!!!!
Enjoy
Paul
CatpointsnorthWould like to see some wooden structures in N scale instead of plastic- just to see the perception of realism they provide. There's a burgeoning cottage industry now in finely detailed laser cut wood kits in all scales.
pointsnorthWould like to see some wooden structures in N scale instead of plastic- just to see the perception of realism they provide.
HHPATH56How about combining both scales on one layout. By slightly raising the N scale, (placed directly behind the HO scale), and using SceniKing sectional photo panorama, one can achieve great "forced perspective".
There is one place on the Platte Valley Layout in the basement of Union Station where Jim Wilde (now of Timberline Scenery company) did a Colorado Front Range "Flat Iron" scene. He used large trees at the top and very small trees at the top. I came out very good. I really looks deep and realistict. The only problem is that when a train rolls through the "tunnel district" the effect is ruined, because suddenly these box cars that match the trees at the bottom are rolling through miniature trees 1/2 way up the mountain.
references:http://www.philarmitage.net/boulder/boulder30.htmlhttp://www.timberlinescenery.com/home.phphttp://www.pvwrr.org/
Which means very little because a 4x8 sheet of plywood will require the same amount of space regardless if its HO or N Scale..A 12" x10' switching layout requires the same space again regardless of scale.
The main difference the the amount of railroad and scenery you can have between the 2 scales on those size layouts..
As Steve Martin used to say: Well, excuse me!
Instead, let us go with "scale math" as presented by model railroading sage, Paul Mallory, in his Design Handbook of Model Railroads on page 3's Fundamentals of Design:
"The amount of railroad possible in a given area is inversely proportional to the square of the scale ratio. To duplicate a given N scale layout in HO would take 3.4 times as much area, in O, 11.1 times as much. The relative layout area required for these three scales is shown in Fig. 1 Access space, is based on people not scale."
(Fig. 1 vertical & horizontal numbers - rectangle layout below)
Scale Vertical Horizontal
N 1.8 3.0
HO 2.3 5.5
O 6.0 10.0
Note the last sentence: Access space, is based on people not scale.
In my case, finishing-up CR&T's room preparation, has slightly reduced available layout space, and; has made N Scale an even more effective choice over HO Scale for operations in the same layout space.
After consideration, whatever scale you choose (which will be right choice for you) -- don't overlook "design & track planning" books from John Armstrong and/or Paul Mallory. The suggested starter from John Armstrong is Track Planning for Realistic Operation. Paul Mallory's Trackwork Handbook for Model Railroads nicely compliments John Armstrong's works.
You'll find most books and articles have advice adaptable to any scale.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
markpierce Seems to me that N-scalers are the most frequent posters on this topic. Minorities are typically more vocal than the majority. I always recommend people visit layouts of various scales, and operate them if possible, before "diving in." Assuredly, one of these years I will operate on Byron's layout and see if N is an operator's scale. This afternoon I made/installed door handles for/on the several Ridgway yard buildings by Banta. I could never do that in N scale. (By the way, Banta's kit of the Port Costa roundhouse looks like a gem.) Mark (HO-scaler for 50 years and will stay that way)
Seems to me that N-scalers are the most frequent posters on this topic. Minorities are typically more vocal than the majority.
I always recommend people visit layouts of various scales, and operate them if possible, before "diving in."
Assuredly, one of these years I will operate on Byron's layout and see if N is an operator's scale.
This afternoon I made/installed door handles for/on the several Ridgway yard buildings by Banta. I could never do that in N scale. (By the way, Banta's kit of the Port Costa roundhouse looks like a gem.)
Mark (HO-scaler for 50 years and will stay that way)
Mark,I model in HO and N Scale and I will say both is equal when it comes to adding fine details to structures such as door handles and regardless of scale both is easily overlooked while looking over a structure.
Would I add door handles to my N Scale structures? Nope no more then I would in HO.
I won't give up my HO in case my eyes start to fade(I turned 62 3 weeks ago)..However,I will enjoy N Scale for as long as I can.
I can work in either scale without my glasses or a optivisior.
Thankfully my eyes are in excellent shape for my age and the RX for my glasses hasn't change much in the past 5 years.
Both scales has pros and cons..
I've been an HO scale modeler for about 26 years, but I grew very frustrated with HO since I was (and still am) into modern-era trains, with 89' TOFC flatcars and autoracks and longer locomotives. Because I had 18" radius curves, I was very limited as to what kind of rolling stock I can run, and since I only had a 4x12' layout, I couldn't run very long trains.
I decided to make the switch to N scale in 2006. The fact that Athearn, a company I was familiar with from HO, also now made N scale trains, was very comforting, and made my transition to the new scale a lot easier.
N scale has gone through leaps and bounds in the past 20 years. It's getting harder and harder to tell whether a model railroad layout is N or HO by looking at photos, provided the N layout is using Code 55 track.
Now I can run anything in N scale and have much longer trains and bigger scenery. I'm very happy I made the switch. No more frustration!
If you do decide to go N,my best advice is to avoid any locos or rolling stock made before 1990. The older stuff is all junk.
N is the fastest growing scale in the US. We're used to handling things like iPod Nanos and 16GB memory cards smaller than a cornflake.
andrechapelon Assuming dead on dimensions in both scales, an HO scale F7 occupies 6.03 times the volume of its HO counterpart (i.e. 1.82 cubed and rounded to nearest .01).
Assuming dead on dimensions in both scales, an HO scale F7 occupies 6.03 times the volume of its HO counterpart (i.e. 1.82 cubed and rounded to nearest .01).
Is that an *African* F7 or a *European* F7 ???
john
Like many other issues discussed somewhat controversial, the question of scale is an issue of personal choice and liking. N scale has come along way in those 50 years - level of detail and performance are years ahead of what HO scale used to be 50 years ago. It is a valid choice for those with limited space and/or a knack for long trains and big operation.
For me, it is not a question of HO vs. N scale, there is room for both scales. My personal preference is O scale (Finescale), followed by HO.