jwhitten BRAKIE There's one more avenue..Find some good use track.. What I have been doing is shopping thoroughly, judiciously and expeditiously. When I find a good deal I don't think about it, I just commit the funds and do it. I don't buy "used" track, I am very skeptical of its value unless I am absolutely certain where its been and its condition. Too easy to get rooked that way. But I don't mind new-old-stock, and buying rail stock that's in good condition. John
BRAKIE There's one more avenue..Find some good use track..
There's one more avenue..Find some good use track..
What I have been doing is shopping thoroughly, judiciously and expeditiously. When I find a good deal I don't think about it, I just commit the funds and do it. I don't buy "used" track, I am very skeptical of its value unless I am absolutely certain where its been and its condition. Too easy to get rooked that way. But I don't mind new-old-stock, and buying rail stock that's in good condition.
John
John,I been buying use track off and on for years with zero problems.
Again,never overlook the use market for nearly new items.I bought 7 use Atlas N Scale switches in near new condition for $1.00 each..I bought 2 use Atlas N Scale Alcos for $80.00($40.00 ea).I don't think these engines was ever ran since they are in pristine condition.
A new Atlas N Scale Alco costs between $59.00-72.00..You know the price of switches
Larry
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I am compelled to ask, taking in the amount of money spent on track and turnouts.. compared to how much you have spent on other items for a layout.. I'm guessing.. my money spent.. or that will be spent on track and turnouts.. compared to everything else I have bought for Model RR.. I'd guess..
its 1/10 of money spent on track/turnouts.. compared to everything else.
What is your percenatage I ask.?
Is track "limited production" now too?
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
GraffenWhat is really silly is that the parts required to handlay tracks, makes it as expensive as ready made track! I mean come on! $0.92 per 18" code 83 rail EACH! $18 for 200 pcs of PC-ties! $16.65 for 1000 pcs wood-ties! This is the price Fast-Track takes.
Fast-Tracks is unnnecessary. People have handlaid track for decades without expensive supplies.
Scale "ties" are expensive, sure, but you don't need official ties to do the job. Buy inexpensive basswood strips at craft stores, cut them into ties.
Raw rail is available in 36" lengths.
Maybe the economy coupled with higher prices will encourage more people to build them own instead of buying everything ready-made
And aren't you glad you threw away all that old horrible BRASS track ! ! I'm glad you threw it my way, no problem with expensive track here, hold a product off the market then you can charge any price you want, looked at the price of a 25 year old house that sold for $60,000 and now costs $750,000, how does stuff like that happen, and car prices are now 1/2 the price they were 3 years ago, try that one on.
I think the OP has a good point.
The basics of a small layout are the benchwork, powerpack, track, trains and some buildings and scenery. Without the track, you have a static diorama.
Let's look at the cost of a small layout. How much is a sheet of 4x8' plywood nowadays? $25? 2" foam about the same? Frames and legs can be made from inexpensive dimensional lumber. Powerpacks can be had for little money. There are plenty of used trainset packs floating around. Sure, it's not DCC, but it's a serviceable power option. Locomotives: some good buys can be had in the $40-50 range. Rolling stock can be found at attractive prices. Simple and basic styrene building kits are plentiful (think DPM, etc.). Scenery? You can get basic groundcover from your back yard. Just be sure to sift it and heat treat it for creepie crawlies. Woodland Scenics makes wonderful stuff. A bag can be fairly expensive, but oftentimes one bag will do the whole layout.
So what do we have invested in the layout so far? Benchwork, about $75; powerpack, $20; a train (loco and cars) perhaps $100. Buildings maybe another $75 and scenery another $25. Total: less than $300.
Now the track. A simple two-track oval, with crossovers opposite one another; two sidings off the main with one siding split into two tracks. About 40 feet of track (13 sections of 3' flex) and 7 turnouts. 13 sections of flex at $3.50 each is about $45.00; 7 turnouts @ $14.00 each is about $100. $145 for track alone! That's almost HALF the cost of EVERYTHING ELSE on the layout!
It's a wonder that anyone can afford to build a layout anymore!
I have to agree with the OP. Track costs can be staggering, even for the simplest of layouts. Anything more complicated just escalates the track costs stratospherically.
I propose that manufacturers GIVE away their track at ridiculously low prices. Flex tracks for 50 cents, turnout for $2-4. For the example layout above, track costs could be less than $25.00! Sure it's below their costs (maybe!), but look how much money it frees up for locomotives, rolling stock and scenery!
When I took my two grandsons to a train show a few years ago, their Dad came with us. After wandering around the show for a few hours, my son came up to me and said, "Holy cow! This stuff is EXPENSIVE!" No sheet, Sherlock! It can get to be VERY expensive, starting with the tracks we all NEED.
Okay, rant over. Feel free to disagree! LOL I know I've avoided some reality in locomotives and building kits. $300-400 locomotives are NOT uncommon. Just this morning, I saw an ad in MR for a Craftsman-style building kit that was $150.00! ONE KIT!!!!
I hate to consider the amount of money I've invested in trains over the last 50 years. I could have bought a vacation condo in Florida!
Where's my antacid and heart medication???? ROFL
I have to agree with most of the comments. I am building my first layout in over 30 years and the cost of the track and turnouts is astounding from what it was back then. I started with code 100 and purchased it in boxes of 100 for $120; not bad at $1.20 per section of flex track (Model Power, which is now up $1.89 in bulk). Then I decided to go to code 83 and sold all 30 of my code 100 turnouts that I got on Ebay and an average cost of $5-6 each. WOW, now look at what I am paying for code 83! Why such a difference? They are alll made the same way and the excuse of haveing to recoup the tooling is overstated. How long does it take to recoup? They don't seem to be doing it with code 100 stuff.
I still don't have all my turnouts because I can't find any good used ones on Ebay and the best prices for new are at least $20 per turnout and $3.25 per 3 foot section of flextrack. I am retired and can't afford to put out $500 or more for turnouts alone. I agree I am building a large layout but didn't expect this when I switched to code 83. I just hope I can gather all t he track I need before I am too old to see what I am doing and not get to enjoy my layout.
And it is true that any aspect of the hobby is going up as well. $32 for a RTR box car! REally! And now Athearn has stopped making their Blue Box kits? Is this hobby becoming a RTR hobby? Even the buildings are now available Built Up?
I guess being out of the hobby for15- 20 years has left me a little overwhelmed with what is available today and what is not.
Well, that is my opinion of things related to cost of model railroading.
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
BRAKIEThere's one more avenue..Find some good use track..
GraffenWhat is really silly is that the parts required to handlay tracks, makes it as expensive as ready made track! I mean come on! $0.92 per 18" code 83 rail EACH! $18 for 200 pcs of PC-ties! $16.65 for 1000 pcs wood-ties! This is the price Fast-Track takes.Buing Atlas code 83 flextrack and using the rails for hand-laid track on "matchsticks" isn´t such a bad idea after all. I would love to lay my own tracks but if the price to make it is much higher than readymade, i´ll stick with whats available. If anyone can point to some more affordable supplies, I would be grateful.
What is really silly is that the parts required to handlay tracks, makes it as expensive as ready made track! I mean come on! $0.92 per 18" code 83 rail EACH! $18 for 200 pcs of PC-ties! $16.65 for 1000 pcs wood-ties! This is the price Fast-Track takes.
Buing Atlas code 83 flextrack and using the rails for hand-laid track on "matchsticks" isn´t such a bad idea after all.
I would love to lay my own tracks but if the price to make it is much higher than readymade, i´ll stick with whats available. If anyone can point to some more affordable supplies, I would be grateful.
BINGO! You got it in one.
I searched the world (literally) high and low, near and far, and finally found a supplier of decent bulk "matchstick" materials suitable for use as hand-laid ties. It took me months of inquiries and dead-ends but I finally found one that would sell me true bulk. I bought 100,000 of them.
Now I'm on a hunt for tie plates and joint bars. I suspect I'll end up having to etch them myself. When I get that figured out, I'm ready to start hand laying.
As a close-second alternative, I'm also pursuing CV tie strips.
Some time in the near future I'm going to have a "throw-down" and see which ones work for me better-- ease of construction, reliability, durability, and aesthetics.
I'm willing to do the work and put out the effort, but I want results and I don't want to break the bank in the process. I refuse. I *will* find another way.
ccarannaEssentially, a thread could be started here saying any certain aspect of model railroading is expensive and you'll get the same 50 responses time after time. Whether it's rolling stock, locomotives, scenery, track, vehicles, figures, structures, DCC - it's ALL expensive until you learn to prioritize and make sacrifices. If you have other interests in your life that take up some of your budget, then perhaps it's not feasible to have a sprawling layout in your basement with a 500' mainline run.
No, I don't think so. Yes, I agree that much stuff is expensive, even seemingly prohibitively-- but most of it is based on short engineering / production runs where there really are tooling costs to recoup, engineers and mold makers to pay, assembly line workers, etc. to pay, and whatnot. Track I think is in a different category. It is essentially the same today as it was 20 years ago, perhaps even 30 years ago. I know you need to replace molds and such every so often but you don't need to redesign the whole thing and retool the whole thing. The machines that make the stuff are still the same. They've already been amortized.
I believe they are hiding behind the fact that *other* stuff costs money and people are used to shucking it out-- and believe (probably correctly) that they can (cough) "justify" their prices that way. I.e. You're used to paying through the nose for everything else, why not track too.
blownout cylinderYou were awful brave throwing this can of worms in here!! lol! My own take is that it really is depending on whether you bit and piece like I did or buy a giant box, or 2, or 3, all at once. I did mine bit fashion because I was really not sure how large a layout I could stuff into ths oversized broomcloset of a room I had. I do not need to worry about double slip switch things or really complicated turnouts as I am modeling a single track branchline operation here. I do, however, have a couple of wyes at either end of the layout--and both were handlaid Now that I have the run of the basement the bit fashion worked in that my supply is now more than sufficient---
You were awful brave throwing this can of worms in here!! lol!
My own take is that it really is depending on whether you bit and piece like I did or buy a giant box, or 2, or 3, all at once. I did mine bit fashion because I was really not sure how large a layout I could stuff into ths oversized broomcloset of a room I had.
I do not need to worry about double slip switch things or really complicated turnouts as I am modeling a single track branchline operation here. I do, however, have a couple of wyes at either end of the layout--and both were handlaid
Now that I have the run of the basement the bit fashion worked in that my supply is now more than sufficient---
Yes, I agree-- that is the only strategy I've found, short of going into the track mfgr'g business, to make it seem less painful. I'm on a "buy-a-wad-o-track"-a-month plan now. And I guess will be for the foreseeable future. Perhaps by the time my kids are out of college I'll have it paid off...
And I am learning how to hand lay the stuff-- at the very least I'm putting in the time to find out how. Particularly turnouts. And there more because I think I will like the aesthetic better and can achieve exactly what I want-- within my skill limits of course (and a little jig to help me here and there perhaps).
And you're right about it being a can of worms... I'm just waiting for the lambasting I'm sure I'm going to get from some for throwing it out there...
jwhittenBut a box of Atlas track code 100, the 'el cheap' stuff is like $450 bucks these days. Maybe a little less here and there, and certainly a lot more in other places.
I just wish the other stuff was as cheap as the track! If I where ever to need a box of 100 sections of 3 foot flex track code 100 it would cost me $300.00 from K-10 Model Trains. One section is $3.25. Turnouts are getting up there, 5 years ago when I started a #6 was $6.95 and now is $10.00. Peco has gone from $12.00 to $20.00 at the same shop.
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jwhittenWhere do the mfgr's get off charging $400 bucks (or MUCH more!!) for a box of track?
This is how our economy works. Goods are sold for the price they can bring on the market. Manufacturers charge what people will pay. If they don't, then the price may go down If they do, they the price stays where it is.
That's it. That's all.
Handlay.
Cut your own ties.
Much cheaper, in my experience.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
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ErnieCQuite a tome John! I have a 1996 PECO catalog that lists turnouts at the same price I just bought them for. Zero increase in 14 years, not bad. If it's any consolation it's a one time purchase. Ernie C
Quite a tome John! I have a 1996 PECO catalog that lists turnouts at the same price I just bought them for. Zero increase in 14 years, not bad. If it's any consolation it's a one time purchase.
Ernie C
Yes, I did preface it with big bold letters: "SOAPBOX"
And I know its "one-time" but it still bugs me because its such a huge awful bite. For me its gonna be at least a couple thousand bucks-- that I'd much rather be spending on something else.
And I agree that some of the "premium" brands have not changed much in price, but I contend they were highly over-priced to begin with.
cacoleIt depends a lot on where you purchase your track and what brand you use, too. Model Power flex track from Trainland is about 1/3 the price of Atlas flex track at a local hobby shop. If you want a real shock, look at the price of G scale track! They should be wearing a burglar's mask and holding a pistol to you when they price it.
It depends a lot on where you purchase your track and what brand you use, too. Model Power flex track from Trainland is about 1/3 the price of Atlas flex track at a local hobby shop.
If you want a real shock, look at the price of G scale track! They should be wearing a burglar's mask and holding a pistol to you when they price it.
Or else doing something I can't well describe on a family site...
I know what you're saying about G-scale track. I've all but given up any hope of getting much more of that. I did luck out awhile back and was able to buy around a thousand feet worth rail stock (4-foot sections) but now I'm stuck with the necessity of figuring out how to acquire tie plates without breaking the bank. Now I know why there are so many drug addicts.... they're really all closet G-scalers but discovered that drug addiction is much cheaper....
Howdy,
It seems to me that the business interests behind Model Railroading have been overlooking a significant detail that is probably a contributor in cutting their collective throats-- the price of track.
Track is a basic, fundamental essential ingredient in Model Railroading. Without it what have you got?
But if the price of track is too high then it stifles the ability of people to express themselves creatively and utilize the space they have available to its fullest potential.
Why is this important or even a consideration?
It occurs to me that a layout is a collection of components that is built to-suit a particular modeler's space constraints and financial budgets. Accordingly my supposition is that the more track a particular modeler has the more subsequent scenicking he is likely to do. The more buildings he is likely to add. And the more locos and rolling stock he is likely to want to run. Further, the more track a modeler has, the more wire and electrical components he'll need to electrify it and switch it. And the more wood or foam construction materials he'll need to support it. And then the follow-on aspects, the more locos a modeler has-- particularly in the present day and going forward-- the more likely he is to want to use DCC, if he hasn't already. And once he's made the decision to use DCC, the more locos he has, the mode DCC decoders he'll need. And if the supposition regarding the relationship between track and layout size holds up, the more likely he is to need / want advanced DCC components-- extra power districts, DCC routing, etc. And if the relationship between track and layout size is true, then the more turnouts he'll have, which means the more stall motors he'll probably want to move them. And then signaling components, etc.
It all seems to come back to the track.
And yet track seems to keep going up and up in price-- or at least it is up there. For a little 'L' or a loop around a board it isn't that expensive perhaps. But a box of Atlas track code 100, the 'el cheapo' stuff is like $450 bucks these days. Maybe a little less here and there, and certainly a lot more in other places. But turnouts have gotten really expensive too-- and those all important "terminal tracks" (you know the ones that do everything cure cancer... maybe you had to have been there... ) It adds up quick. And the next thing you know the largest part of your budget is going to buying track.
If I were a manufacturer and thinking about things, I might be tempted (I say, "Might") to subsidize the cost of track somehow to make it cheaper and easier for folks to purchase with the understanding that in the doing I'd be indirectly promoting the other products I have to sell instead of watching all those hobby budgets get soaked-up by the street corner track dealers.
Track isn't really that expensive to make. Most of the mfgr's of track have been making track for a very long time and have almost certainly recouped their initial tooling and setup costs so (my opinion and presumption) the track industry is pretty mature in that sense and the bulk of the cost is down to the cost of the essential ingredients: nickel-silver (nickel / copper / zinc alloy), facilities and labor. Likewise I have a hard time believing there is a high labor cost but rather the whole thing is pretty much automated, with perhaps some spot interaction to push a button, refill a hopper, or kick the machine.
And it certainly is the cost of the ingredients. If they are shaped differently (i.e., not track) they are dirt cheap. Nickel-silver is a widely-used commercial alloy used to fashion a variety of everyday common items from kitchen cutlery, zippers and keys, costume jewelry, etc.
The plastic ties are typically made of styrene plastic which is one of the cheapest and most ubiquitous types of plastic on the planet. The production process to produce plastic track is pretty simple too, the styrene plastic is injection-molded and then the extruded rails inserted through the guides by machine off a huge roll while the plastic is still warm, and then cut into appropriate lengths. Flex track and sectional track have slightly different track (tie) forms but are otherwise pretty much the same to produce. Also different companies put more or less detail into the ties / tie-plates and such, but it otherwise does not dramatically affect the process nor the quantity of materials used, or the overall difficulty of engineering or production.
And if by chance there is some large hidden cost associated with the manufacture of track, then surely producing it in its raw components would avoid them, even if they had to be purchased in bulk-- and yet we see the price of rail stock, wooden ties, spikes, styrene tie strips (a la Central Valley) and the other accoutrements of handlaid track assemblage are just as expensive. And yet each of the materials used in these items are widely available and cheap to produce and manufacture in any other context.
Take polystyrene plastic, for example. There's more polystyrene plastic material in one of those large boxes of plastic cutlery available in your supermarket than in a whole bag of CV tie strips. Perhaps a little more one way or the other, but certainly in the right ballpark. And yet the price of the plastic cutlery is $1.50-3.00, depending on the pricing egregiousness of your particular supermarket. But if they're shaped like railroad ties, suddenly that same box of plastic costs $40-50 or more dollars.
And the example can be repeated many times over, comparing ordinary widely-available items to the materials used to make track (or other products for that matter-- but I'm concentrating on track for this discussion).
Where do the mfgr's get off charging $400 bucks (or MUCH more!!) for a box of track? When there are plenty of items made with the same ingredients that are commonly made and sold for a tiny fraction of that price-- one percent, or even ten percent, that'd only be $40 bucks, a significant difference. If I were a prudent and sales conscious model railroad mfgr, I might be tempted to consider all that cost going to the track dealers and realize that there is a lot of "locked-in capital" that could be going my way instead-- to purchase locos, rolling stock, scenicking supplies, lumber, wire, switches, DCC gear-- or what have you-- instead.
Think about it. Sure you can shrug and say "that's the way it is", or "that's inflation" or what have you. But is it *really* ?? So the cost was half 20 years ago what it is now-- I say they were just screwing you then already-- and its the *cost of that screwing* that's gone up with inflation. The simple fact that the market will bear it, IMO, is the real reason for the price. And of course its a niche item, not everyone in the world is demanding model track so the number of suppliers is reduced and there is less requirement for them to cut costs to the bone-- where else are people going to go to buy the stuff? I understand the economics of it, but I believe strongly that the economics are false, or rather, arbitrary and not based on true underlying material and production costs. Though I'm sure you could point out many items in our hobby and make that particular claim.
But track most especially-- it is one of the most ubiquitous and universal items of our hobby-- and yet somehow it has also crept up to become one of the most expensive. I have searched high and low for alternatives over the last couple of years and I just simply cannot find any. Short of purchasing the nickel-silver alloy and having it extruded myself, the industry appears to be locked-up and the track dealers are sitting there in fat sitting charging ludicrous prices and laughing all the way to the bank...
Just my thoughts. I'm sure you're about to supply plenty more of your own