There are different perspectives on limited edition anything. In our hobby, the simplest are paint jobs where the incremental cost is relatively minimal.
Special editions involving parts, i.e SP lighting groups, add a little more. There are mold costs involved but generally maybe just a new insert for the base mold. Then there are the molds for the special trim parts themselves and even if they are placed with a second tier supplier, costs have to be recovered.
If I do a completely stand alone model where I can not build on existing tooling, or maybe only minimally, then the ante goes up quickly. Multiple cavity molding dies, even if aluminum is feasible, are a significant investment even in the day of CAD and NC cutting machines.
At the end of the day, can that final unit cost be recovered in terms of potential sales and margin levels? Is there sufficient cache to drive the sales needed?
It's a real black art to try and anticipate what a consumer will do even with focus groups and other data gathering mechanisms. This is not the same as the special edition cars issued by Detroit once upon a time, where the name was sure to spur a niche demand at a premium price (e.g. 1978 Corvette Indy Pace car and 25th anniversary editions that sold out for above sticker prices).
Limited production enables manufacturers to bring more highly detailed products, more models and greater variations. This month they be producing E units while next month it may be SD-75s. The same amount of people employed, but making a wider variety of products. And with each release, they add more roadnames, numbers and road specific details. Look at Walther's/Lifelike P2K F units, they were pretty nice models a few years ago, now the F units sport antennae, nose grabs, and other road specfic details.
The economy is probably not the reason as Limited Production has been around for a few years, predating the current recession.
Just-in-time logisitcs is the name of the game now. Now longer do manufacuters in virtually any sector stockplie/warehouse products, it's inefficient and costly.
Could MR manufacturers make and sell more, in many cases yes, and I think you see some products, especially locos and specific roadnames, show up more frequently.
Personally, when I see an announcement, I do two things. I preorder with my LHS and I start saving. I've yet to be disappointed. Do I pay a little more, yes, do I mind, no. And, if an item comes out that I want but unable to afford at that time, I wait until I have the funds and start checking the usual places to find it. Again, I've had great success.
Ricky
I suspect if there were no limited runs , particularly paint schemes , we would have less to choose from ..
RedGrey62Just-in-time logisitcs is the name of the game now. Now longer do manufacuters in virtually any sector stockplie/warehouse products, it's inefficient and costly.
And that is a strong point. Just In Time is cost effecient. It also has a cost too. Remember the phrase---there is no such thing as a free lunch? Well, maybe for some, there is such a thing as that free lunch--
Well, if someone goes on strike---it affects everything down the line. When Toyota announced it was having those recent giant recalls---everything slowed down or just plain stopped. Happens all over the place...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
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as long as people are being duped into believing that an item is "limited production" or "collectible" the manufacturers will have a better chance of getting a premium price for it. not to mention more interest from their prospective customers.
that is why you see the tv ads saying "limit 5 per household" or "not sold in stores" they already know no one in his right mind would buy more that 5 and that if a customer saw what he was getting in a store, he would laugh at the piece of junk and walk away.
it is a marketing game.
why do you think things like early Lionel bring such good prices? it is because it was not represented to be "limited" or "collectible" kids got it and ran the heck out of it. their baby brother took it outdoors and left it in the rain. the items that survived are truly hard to come by and therefor valuable.
grizlump (grouchy german)
Limited-run productions are due to economic factors. They aren't done to cheat or irritate you. Yeah, it would be great if every model built was always available, but it isn't ever going to happen.
Mark
markpierce Limited-run productions are due to economic factors. They aren't done to cheat or irritate you. Yeah, it would be great if every model built was always available, but it isn't ever going to happen. Mark
Oh come on, Mark. The lack of a tinfoil hat to protect you from the mind control rays has fried your brain. Cheating and annoying you is precisely why they do it. It's all part of a long term plot by the big players in the hobby industry to destroy craftsmanship and make everyone buy things in a zombie like manner rather than make them.
Model Railroader has been pushing RTR or near RTR since the 50's. Remember "The HO Railroad That Grows"? What did they use on that? Atlas Snap-Track. Even back then they were pushing the easy solution over the solution that expands one's capabilities. IIRC, the earlier project railroads used either Tru-Scale Ready Track or the Tru-Scale self-gauging roadbed. It's been so many years I forget which. I'll have to re-research things long ago forgotten. I'm on to them, though. By the time I'm finished I'll expose the whole sorry mess and show the entire world that that there's been a massive insidious plot and a huge coverup for the better part of 6 decades. Roswell's a sideshow compared to this.
Andre
Mark,You nailed it. The folks that want to end limited runs are ignorant of reality. They want to walk into any hobby shop in the nation and buy any loco they want to, when they want to, in any paint scheme they want, and all for a discounted price. It doesn't matter if the model came out 10 years ago, they want it NOW! In multiple numbers, of course. These folks need to wake up and smell the coffee...
"Limited Run" does not always mean they only make X-amount, never to be run again. It means that it's made in batches and that they may or may not make any more. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. For example, P2K GP9's in NH = one run. P1K DL109's in NH = three runs. Both are considered "Limited Run".
"Unlimited Runs" are those that are in continuous production, as in the old days. Ol' Irv Athearn cranked out the same dozen paint schemes & numbers on BB F7A's for 40 years or more. New Athearn cranks out a new Athearn Genesis F-unit every month in a "Limited Run". Which would you rather have?
Gimme "Limited Runs". They introduced this Golden Age of model railroading that we all enjoy (well, most of us). Examine what was on the market before "Limited Runs"...say the 1980's. The selection stunk, to say the least. I think Athearn released perhaps a half dozen new engines in the 1980's. These days, people groan when they don't release a new engine model every month. And people want to go back to those days? They are out to lunch, IMHO.
EDIT: Andre... HA!!! So true, so true...
Paul A. Cutler III
But Paul, back in the real "Good Old Days", all they had to do was slap a paint scheme (often incorrect) on a model that the road in question never rostered and everybody was happy. How many New Haven F7's did Athearn make? How many F7's did the NYNH&H actually ever roster? How many different road names were put on Athearn's Santa Fe caboose? How many years did it take for Athearn to make a caboose of different design?
Shoot, back in the One True Golden Age, Penn Line would sell you a Pennsy K4 or L1 RTR lettered for Southern Pacific. The fact that the lettering was in Dulux Gold rather than SP Lettering Gray is of no more consequence than the Belpaire firebox or any of the other details that just screamed "Pennsy".
Of course there was plenty of stock on hand. They kept cranking out the same thing year after year until the market was so saturated with stuff that was the same as last year (and 10/20/30 years before for that matter) that it wouldn't sell. And then they couldn't generate the revenue to bring out something that actually required new design and tooling. How long did Mantua keep cranking out the same old Mikes and Pacifics they been cranking out since the late 40's/early 50's (and even more pathetically selling them as "collectibles" with randomly applied "detail" parts towards the end)?
Some people will complain about anything.
andrechapelon Oh come on, Mark. The lack of a tinfoil hat to protect you from the mind control rays has fried your brain. Cheating and annoying you is precisely why they do it. It's all part of a long term plot by the big players in the hobby industry to destroy craftsmanship and make everyone buy things in a zombie like manner rather than make them.
No, Mike. I'm an especially "happy child" particularly after acquiring an MM-3 from a collector (bless him).
markpierce andrechapelon Oh come on, Mark. The lack of a tinfoil hat to protect you from the mind control rays has fried your brain. Cheating and annoying you is precisely why they do it. It's all part of a long term plot by the big players in the hobby industry to destroy craftsmanship and make everyone buy things in a zombie like manner rather than make them. No, Mike. I'm an especially "happy child" particularly after acquiring an MM-3 from a collector (bless him).
Exactly my point. You could have bought a Spectrum USRA 2-6-6-2 and kitbashed it into an MM-3. Bachmann's even got the correct tender for #3930. The impending death of the hobby is now squarely on your shoulders.
Tell ya what I'm going do to help you out of this mess you've created for yourself. I'll buy a Spectrum USRA 2-6-6-2. I've already got a Bachmann 160C tender. I'll make a straight swap with you. That way, you'll be relieved of the onus of contributing to the death of the hobby. As for me, well, I'll have an MM-3 and the knowledge that I saved a fellow model railroader from a grievious sin.
It's the least I can do.
Mike
andrechapelonTell ya what I'm going do to help you out of this mess you've created for yourself. I'll buy a Spectrum USRA 2-6-6-2. I've already got a Bachmann 160C tender. I'll make a straight swap with you. That way, you'll be relieved of the onus of contributing to the death of the hobby. As for me, well, I'll have an MM-3 and the knowledge that I saved a fellow model railroader from a grievious sin.
No thanks, Mike. I know when I'm better off. ... And I ain't in any mess! ... And I think you're jealous.
I buy a lot of Athearn engines or should I say most of my engines that I have purchased so happen to be Athearn. I love the fact that Athearn has provided us the costomer with a fair amount of diverse railways for us. Me personally by modeling the MRL I find it hard to find what I need until about 4 years ago when Athearn started with the SD40. From the SD40 we then have seen the SD45-2, GP35, SD40-2, and the F-45. I now sit patiently for the hopes that they will bring out the SD45 and the SD70Ace in MRL. My point is this, though I have been on cloud 9 with these now available MRL units, I have had to act quick to purchase or my only hopes is to sit around and find one on Ebay from now until who knows when. This economy has problably been a factor in this but still I give Athearn credit for still trying to provide us modelers with the engines that we desire to model. Other than that, I have gotten pretty handy with the airbrush.
--Zak Gardner
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markpierce No, Mike. I'm an especially "happy child" particularly after acquiring an MM-3 from a collector (bless him).
markpierce markpierce No, Mike. I'm an especially "happy child" particularly after acquiring an MM-3 from a collector (bless him).
Show off. BTW, I'm going to download that photo. Got one of the fireman's side? Apparently, I wasn't able to talk you out of this and if I want an MM-3, I'll have to use the USRA as a starting point.
andrechapelon Got one of the fireman's side? Apparently, I wasn't able to talk you out of this and if I
Got one of the fireman's side? Apparently, I wasn't able to talk you out of this and if I
No, I didn't. But for you, Mike, I took another photo, downloaded it, transferred it, ad nauseum, so here it is:
(Look at them pumps!)
As I see it the people who want limited runs stopped or discontinued or what ever are more then likely the people who can't afford them anyway. Hey if not for nothing else this hobby is diverse in many way. You have the serious rivet counter, the guy who runs trains around in a circle on a ping pong table, they guy who has umpteen thousands of dollars invested in trains running through his back yard and around a fish pond, the guy who likes tiny little Z-scale trains, the guy who likes old pre war Lionel, The live steam crowd. Well you get the picture. The one command thread is we all all like trains some more passionately then others, I say more power to them if it's what you enjoy and makes you happy so be it, but why rain on someone else's parade.Hey there are a lot of limited run trains out there that I can't afford and probably never will but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate them
What ever happen to live and let live and respecting others, I don't foresee any of this as any sort of big conspiracy or anything even close. I think it's just simple economics 101 if you have a demand for something which there clearly is and you over supply the larket naturally the price has to come down. So you keep production limited and there fore maintain quality standards up and you still make money. In my O/P there is no viable reason why any company should stop making them, the only reason they will have is when people jsut don't buy them.
Thanks, Mark. You'll be mentioned in my will. You won't get anything, but I'll mention your name.
IMHO, the reason behing limited runs is much simpler. In most cases, brands do not own the production resources anymore, i.e. manufacturing is done in China. The importers just order a quantity they think they can sell in a certain time and that´s all there is to it. The Chinese manufacturer just produces this batch and ships it out. A re-order at a later date might include new paint schemes or slight modifications, if the importers sees the need for that. The most expensive part of a loco or rolling stock is the tooling, pricing takes into consideration, that amortization has to be done with the first production run. This pushes the price level up. And it stays up - even when the importers orders another batch - but that is advertized as a new product.
Have you noticed that some of the BLI locos have been around before? Either they are now marketed under the Blueline label, or they are "upgraded" to the Paragon 2 label, the difference being the chip inside.
Regardless if people can or can´t afford the "limited production runs", there is still the problem with shops.
If they want to stock an item, they order a specified amount based on what they THINK they can sell. If they have ordered too few, they can´t order any more as the item in question is a "limited edition", and was sold out a year before it hit the shores!
So the shop instead uses a system where you have to pre-order the item (often with a "small" fee), so then they think it is okay and everybody wins, right? No! Sometimes the item in question is so limited in its production that it takes a few more YEARS before it is delivered, and then you can pay the balance for it. More often than not, the buyer has lost all interest in that item....see the following:
I have a friend here in Sweden who has made two pre-orders on (Swedish) locomotives as they are limited editions and one of them was delivered about a year and a half ago, and it had a LOT of flaws! The wheels were out of quarter, and a lot of details had fallen off in the transport from the factory to the shop. He returned it for repairs and haven´t seen it since! They probably can´t replace it as it was a limited edition and spares for that repair isn´t available.
The other locomotive he had to pre-pay as it was an even more limited run. He paid three years ago and haven´t seen any locomotive yet!
He lost interest in trains because of this, and said that when he eventually gets his locos he will sell them on Auction.
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CB&Q4-8-4FanaticI've been reading posts that say that some people want an end to the limited production locomotives. here are two reasons why I think that is: 1. The economy. You can thank the recession for that.
..except we've had these complaints for years, even when the economy was good.
CB&Q4-8-4FanaticI've been reading posts that say that some people want an end to the limited production locomotives. here are two reasons why I think that is: 1. The economy. You can thank the recession for that. 2. Manufacturers want to get as many people to buy the loco so they know that people will want to buy them in the future. The less people that buy them the less the manufacturers will produce them in the future.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
At one time I was one of the voices crying in the wilderness about how inherently evil the limited production run concept was. But I've changed my tune.
The ability to ask for advance reservations enables the manufacturers to understand up front how many units should be produced, which helps them operate a lot more efficiently. It also allows them to produce a predictable amount of overage, to help take care of the folks looking for a particular model after the fact. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than going to the hobby store year in and year out and looking at the exact same models that have been produced ad nauseum for a generation or two?
The advantage of pre-ordered limited runs is especially evident in N scale. For eons we got Bachmann or Trix or Model Power engines, and even Atlas, in a handful of paint schemes and a very limited selection of models. You could get anything you wanted, as long as it was a Santa Fe GP40. While this was good for the after-market parts and detail market, it was horrible for modelers who just want what they want, or who wanted to spend as much time building their layouts and scenery as they were forced to do with painting and detailing their engines.
Now, it's spilled over from locomotives, which are plentiful and available in unprecedented variety, into rolling stock, where we're enjoying the addition of new and unique body styles just about every month. Even passenger cars have become more individualized.
In fact, I'm working with a manufacturer right now to produce a highly limited run car in a custom paint scheme for my freelance Laurel Valley...
It used to be that Micro Trains, Bowser or Atlas would do a custom run but you needed to sell a minimum of 300 or 500 cars. I'm having this run done with a minimum order of 20 cars. This would be unheard of in the old system.
The difference is that with the old way, you had to stop the mass production of the regular cars to slip in the custom work, so you needed a big enough run to make it worth the trouble. Today, it's all custom work, made to order. So adding 20 to 50 units of an oddball is no big deal!
Okay, I'll concede that you can't walk into your local in most places and find exactly what you want on the shelf. But you can sit at your computer and within a few minutes at least have a lead on it. Between internet retailers and after-market sites like Ebay, odds are you don't have to look far to find releases that 2, 3 or even 8 years old.
Also, Atlas has begun producing overruns of popular paint schemes and keeping just the decorated shells in stock. So, for a few dollars more than retail, you can actually buy an entire locomotive from the parts department and "roll your own" if you like.
It truly is the best of times, especially in N scale, and the limited production run is a key factor in that.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net