IRONROOSTERI reject both labels. In the past I have scratchbuilt including building the windows, craftsman kit built, shake the box kit built, screwdriver kit built, plunked RTR out of the box on the layout. I expect I'll do all of it again in the future, but none of those define my approach to the hobby.
Well said Paul... All theses technics and products meet a need. It's nice to get an excellent RTR kit when available and it's equally nice to kitbash a loco to fit what you need. It scratchbuild structure I can't find on the market, I kitbash those that need to be tweaked to fit my layout and love when some manufacturer produce a kit dear to me. It would be futile to draw a line between both approach since almost every hobbyist have to deal with them at some point... But there's always purists that will nag about what's good, what's wrong, how they do the "right" thing on their ghost layout nobody ever say...
IRONROOSTER I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires.
In an other way, I respect modelists that decide to do everything by themselves as a personnal challenge and to ensure the consistency of their special project. And the same for people that just want to run their trains. I think this issue have been debated thousand and thousand of times. I'm lurking here from time to time and always see this kind of thread going on. If I was following my LHS' opinions, I would do nothing and quit the hobby right on the spot!!!
Matt, the guy that is stating things that sounds to have been said more than once...
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
Hello Guys,
Big debate, which I beleive is not very important in the fact.
If we go to the dictionnary the "scratchbuilder" is the one who build something from "nothing".
Yes it's great to start a project from your only idea and build something which is not avaible RTR.
I have seen numerous scratchbuild items which often are some artistic models whith so much details and quality construction that you could beleive the real thing was scaled down.
On the other side there are wonderful layouts using a lot of RTR items; but whith a good construction, nice weathering and good use in the scenery, (by example DPM structures).
By example, take a look at all the RTR cars and loco's we use and which are just wheatered and look so great.
So for me I don't want to know if it's a scratchbuilder or a RTR guy, the only thing which count for me is the appearance of the layout and the whole effect it could have when seeing it.
The rest are debate about if I can say, just a kind of philosophy, like so many things,but it's not the essential about what I am expecting.
I think also it's somewhere sad to put the people in one category or another, and more over in this hobby.
So I like to show my work and share it (see WPF of this week end), I like to answer about basic topic or elaborated ones, but don't care about to be named a scratchbuilder or a RTR railroader, I just want your appreciation.
Of course it's only my opinion.
Anyway, it's nice to see the interest about this topic, I never thingh it could generate so much answers.
Marc
Marc_Magnus Big debate, which I believe is not very important in the fact.So for me I don't want to know if it's a scratchbuilder or a RTR guy, the only thing which count for me is the appearance of the layout and the whole effect it could have when seeing it. I think also it's somewhere sad to put the people in one category or another, and more over in this hobby. So I like to show my work and share it (see WPF of this week end), I like to answer about basic topic or elaborated ones, but don't care about to be named a scratchbuilder or a RTR railroader, I just want your appreciation.Marc
Big debate, which I believe is not very important in the fact.
Marc, you have put it to the point - thank you!
IRONROOSTERI am a builder and operator of layouts. I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires.
I am a builder and operator of layouts. I use and do whatever it takes to satisfy my own desires.
I agree Paul, if a RTR model fits both the situation at hand and my purposes, then why not use it? Perhaps in an ideal setting I would build many more components of my layout from the ground up; but right now that is simply not feasible. The reality for me is that I dont have all that much time to devote to my trains. I go to college about 2900 miles away from home (trains and layout included). About 7-8 months out of the year I probably wont be seeing much of my trains. Similarly, when I am home I dont spend every waking hour with my trains. I have friends and other hobbies that take up my time. This being said, when I do have some train time, I'd like it to be spent running trains (my favorite part of the hobby). I can achieve this with a relatively small time budget through using RTR components, though many are modified to some extent. They do exactly what I want while giving me more time to run trains.
-Cahrn
Thank you everybody for your answers and opinions!
I have enjoyed reading through all of your replies!
jwhitten Please go back and re-read my original question -- it was not about who's a what, it was about the terms themselves-- how people define them, where the boundaries are, etc.
Please go back and re-read my original question -- it was not about who's a what, it was about the terms themselves-- how people define them, where the boundaries are, etc.
Speaking for myself, I simply define myself as a model railroader. Model railroading incorporates numerous hobbies under one umbrella. Some of them I enjoy and I am good at. Others I am not good at and don't enjoy doing. If it is possible to pay to have those aspects done for me and I can afford it, that is the route I choose to go. I am building a very large layout and it is very slow going. It has taken me much longer to complete this than I ever anticipated. If I can take advantage of RTR to shorten the process, I will do so.
Perhaps someday, I will get the railroad built to a reasonably complete level and that will afford me the time to try my hand at scratchbuilding, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
In my not so humble opinion, trying to arrive at consensus definitions is not worth the effort. Look at what the NMRA goes through for their contests.
In my world, anybody that is faster than me (and that's most) is a runner. Anybody that is slower than me is a jogger.
I use the same scheme in model railroading. Anybody that is better than me - however I define better - is a "real model railroader". Anybody that isn't better than me - to use CNJ's term - may or may not be a "dabbler", depending on how I feel about them personally.
Is that subjective enough?
The RTR movement has brought more variety of goods to the model railroad market than I would ever have dreamed possible 30 or 40 years ago. The RTR proliferation also demands a much larger wallet, but it makes possible a lot more reasonable quality larger layouts than in the past. Since I don't have much money, time, or space, the RTR world matters little to me other than making a wider variety of stuff available than in the past.
Out of production kit availability is actually higher these days than it used to be. A British mr magazine poll once claimed that 75% of kits sold never got built by their 1st owners. These kits come to eBay and other venues as many of the aging owners realize that they'd rather have the improved RTR than struggle with an old kit. So I'm a happy camper regardless.
And if I ever develop my skills enough to scratchbuild, I'm imagine I'll be happy doing that, too.
Model railroading is fun...even if you are not a real model railroader.
Fred W
Milepost 266.2What about people who build everything from kits, but never modify anything? Every car is built exactly as it comes, no upgraded or corrected parts, doors, etc. If they buy the Walthers New River Mine, they build the New River Mine. They're not RTR modelers, but the end result is essentially the same, isn't it?
This is a great point. For example, folks can spend a lot of $$ for a craftsman kit that they want to build as it was designed....after all, that's why they bought it. In essence though, they're just kit builders according to the categories the original poster would like to put on everyone.
*** it, I keep trying to force them into a box, but these things just don't fit. Who designed these god *** model railroaders anyway?
Pish Posh, don't mind this - I'm just Mary Lincoln, right JW?
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
I will try very hard not to make this very complicated.
When I cannot find what I want, I scratch build it. When I find something RTR that I like, I buy it.
I hope this is not to involved for some of you. I am not very good with words.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Very interesting question..
Even tho' I build my structures per directions I end up either adding detail or omitting some minor detail and that as become by trademark.Yet I don't consider myself a kitbasher because I follow the kit's directions and never used 2 or more kits to make a completely different structure
I don't even consider this a kitbash because I use 2 kits of the same building to get a larger elevator..
.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
For me, that's a very good--but tricky question. I'd say that RTR is what you get out of the box ready to go on the layout, not something you put together--even if you do it as per the instructions. That to me, is 'kit-building', and even if you follow the instructions to the letter, there's still the opportunity to 'adjust' things to your own personal satisfaction.
Funny you should mention the "New River Mine" which is of course based on a Colorado coal mine. When I looked at the photo of the kit, I thought, "Wow, the basic structure is very close to some of the large gold mines we had here in California in the first part of the 20th Century." So I bought it. Put the basic structure together (without gluing it) and decided where it worked for me and where it really didn't, then adjusted some of the structure to what I figured would work for the basic stamping mill at a rather large gold mine complex in my home town. Some of it (the coal chutes) was discarded, other parts were adjusted, and even though the basic building LOOKS a lot like the original Walther's kit (the contours of the main building work very well for 'stamping' of the ore, just like the original building works for the sorting of coal), there were other adjustments that I could do that actually turned it into a working early 20th century gold processing mine. So, of course, what I ended up doing was "Kit-bashing" one type of mine building into another, but with MINOR 'tweaks.'
But for someone who builds the kit as per the instructions, I really wouldn't call it 'ready to run'. For me, 'ready to run' is lifting the completed pre-built structure out of the box and putting it on the MR as is. Just as RTR is taking a completed car out of the box and putting it on the tracks.
So I understand what you're getting at, but in all honesty, I think it's coming down to "Labels" again. And seriously, I can tell you that even my RTR rolling stock very seldom hits the rails without either coupler or wheel replacement (sometimes both).
'Tis a conundrum, I think.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I am in two camps - scratch builder and RTR. I enjoy scratch building but find kits frustrating. I find scratch building much more enjoyable than assembling a kit because I can build it MY way. If a piece of equipment I want is available in RTR, I will buy it. Why try to reinvent the wheel by building it.
Almost all my kits are built as designed. If I didn't like the way it was designed and it didn't fit the space available, I probably wouldn't have bought it in th first place. If I vary from the instructions, it is usually leaving off some detail that looks like a pain in the ___ to assemble, not to enhance the end product. I have only a couple of structures on the layout that I would call true kitbashes. One is a large passenger station that combined platforms from Vollmer's Baden-Baden station with a modular building. A series of lucky coincidences allowed the building to mate almost perfectly with the station side platform. The other kitbash is an old Walthers Paper Mill kit which was essentially a couple boxy structures that I cut and pasted into a long shallow background complex, combining it with several modular structures.
While the end product may appear similar, or even identical, the process by which each reaches fruition is totally different. A builder of a kit had to exhibit a talent for construction, painting and weathering for the finished model to look any good. The only talent exhibited by the person with the RTR example was that of opening his wallet.
Like it or not, the hobby of model railroading has been regarded as a craftsman's hobby since its inception three-quarters of a century ago. As such, it is as much about developing one's talents and skills for model making, as it is about the running of miniature trains. If one totally eliminates the talent/skill/creativity aspects from the hobby it leaves the supposed model railroader as no different from the juveniles who played with their Lionels and Flyers back in the 1950's.
CNJ831
Scarpiathey're just kit builders according to the categories the original poster would like to put on everyone.
I did not attempt to "put categories on everyone", and moreover my first sentence stated that this whole discussion was "just for fun".
I just wanted to find out how people defined scratch-builders and rtr'ers relative to what is actually produced-- in fact, your example of someone who buys a kit and assembles it exactly as intended is *precisely* the point I was attempting to discern-- i.e., the underlying "philosophical" aspect (philosophy) underlying the terms.
"J.W."
(aka Jwhitten, aka John)
fwrightIn my not so humble opinion, trying to arrive at consensus definitions is not worth the effort.
I wasn't even trying to come up with consensus opinions, I just wanted to hear what everybody (anybody) had to say on the subject-- what they feel scratchbuilding or rtr means, and especially in the context of building a "layout", which is a large and complex things, and -- in my own view-- is of approximate difficulty / complexity (so far as to be able to make a comparison) that one might be able to make a philosophical statement that the "layout is scratchbuilt", even if it was assembled with essentially all RTR materials-- i.e., the outcome (the layout) transcends its parts (all the RTR stuff). And to be fair to both camps (and if there are others, I didn't intentionally neglect them), posited the question from both viewpoints.
However, one respondant did point out that there is another category which I should have considered and included-- that of kit-bashing, which perhaps might have been yet another possibility for the aforementioned layout builder.
Just to be excruciatingly clear-- I don't really give a rat's patootie who's a what-- as far as labels go-- and I hope to someday meet every single one of you at some point, view your creations-- layouts, models, you name it-- whatever makes you a Model Railroader-- and enjoy what you have to offer, and be glad we have such a fun and diverse hobby.
And I said it earlier and I'll say it again-- THANK YOU everyone for all of your replies and opinions. You've really hit upon many facets of the subject, in fact a few I hadn't even considered (!!!) And if anybody has anything additional to add, or another viewpoint, I'd love to hear about that too.
As far as labels go, this is my only determination-- if you say you're a Model Railroader you *are* a Model Railroader-- you don't need to do or "prove" anything else to me or anybody, in my opinion. If you want to be considered amongst the ranks of Model Railroaders, that desire and intent should be enough to make it so. Everything else is splitting hairs and being finicky-- in my book at least. But we can still discuss what we mean by the various terms and have some fun in the process-- I hope!
PASMITHIt's great to see this thread has already reached 5 pages. Peter Smith, Memphis
That's a nice model Peter, how long have you been working on it?
john
CNJ831While the end product may appear similar, or even identical, the process by which each reaches fruition is totally different. A builder of a kit had to exhibit a talent for construction, painting and weathering for the finished model to look any good.
That's also a very good observation.
CNJ831The only talent exhibited by the person with the RTR example was that of opening his wallet.
I understand your meaning, but I think the only way that could be true for a "layout builder", for example, is if they contacted a layout building service and said I want to buy layout #1 in your catalog exactly the way it comes with no modifications or customizations.
Suppose someone goes out and buys Siever's benchwork (or some other brand, not singling them out), a handful of structures (we'll say already-constructed), some locos, some rolling stock-- all RTR, etc-- and using all of those RTR (store-bought) parts builds a "unique and personal" layout, is it "scratchbuilt" or not? After all, we're presuming (I am at least) that someone else's attempt from the *exact same set of parts* would also be "unique and personal", and thus different from the first person's. So the essential quality-- as I'm coming to view it-- is the "vision" that someone has that guides them in the process. Although I suppose I could equally accept that the process might alternately (or even more correctly) be called "kit-bashing" or some such and not truly "scratch building".
I think the subject has been well-covered from many angles at this point so I suppose I'm really only expressing my own personal opinion here.
But, factoring in the rest of your remark, "The only talent exhibited by the person with the RTR example was that of opening his wallet.", I suppose there is a point made there as well, with respect to "vision"-- if you specify all of the vision but contribute none of the actual labor involved needed to bring it to fruition, it seems a little difficult to consider that a true "art", again my opinion. So perhaps another essential ingredient is being "personally involved" in the creation.
However it shakes out, its very clear from the number and depth of responses that it is not a simple cut-n-dried issue.
I am surprised, that this thread has reached page 6 without entering into the heated debate this issue usually ends up in, forcing the mods to declare an end.
But what have we learned so far?
I am afraid, nothing new. There are as many different kinds of model railroaders as there are people and there is an industry, that caters for the specific needs of all, well, almost all. Kit-, scratch building, RTR - there is room for all kind of aspects, for all kind of gauges, for all kind of prototypes, regions - you name it! This variety makes the hobby the most fascinating one and us model railroaders a great bunch of people.
Let´s not spoil the fun we are having by putting up boundaries and categories!
jwhitten I just wanted to find out how people defined scratch-builders and rtr'ers relative to what is actually produced
I just wanted to find out how people defined scratch-builders and rtr'ers relative to what is actually produced
And you have gotten exactly the answers that were totally predicable when you posted your thread.
People simply do not fall into neat simple little categories - all human beings are members of a large number of groups at any one time, and also more or less constantly move around from one group to the other at various times.
Pretty much all of us buy some stuff ready made, make something from kits (kitbashed or straight up) and scratchbuild something.
The things on a layout people are most likely to buy ready to use is engines, with rolling stock as the second item on the list.
Relatively few people buy a motor, gears, trucks and build/assemble a locomotive from scratch from such components and brass (for the frame) and sheet styrene (or whatever people use for the top and sides of an engine).
Scratch built locomotives is fairly hard to build. Or at least - most of us think it would be fairly hard, and thus don't dare to start on such a project.
If anyone wants to start a thread showing how to get parts, and how to scratch build e.g. an H0 scale doodlebug or a traction engine or something - feel free to do that - I bet it would be interesting to learn for a lot of us.
Freight and passenger cars - most people also buy most of their rolling stock ready to run. But quite a few people also routinely replace all their couplers with Kadee or Sergent (sp?) couplers, replace plastic wheels with metal wheels and add weight to their cars to make them stay better on the track. Or strip the old paint and repaint them in their desired colors. Or weather their cars.
Again - if anyone wants to do a thread on how they do their tuneup of newly bought cars - feel free to go ahead. We can all learn new tricks from each other.
Same with modifying/rebuilding cars to make them more like the prototype car you want to model - removing or adding parts or whatever. It is interesting to see what others do with their cars.
Buildings and others structures (bridges, signs, signals or whatever) - relatively few people buy all their buildings already assembled and painted and plop them on their layout unaltered.
Some people build kits as designed, some modify kits, some use kits as just a collection of parts, some prefer to build their buildings by starting out from styrene sheets, paper, wood, metal or what have you.
Again - if people do buildings in a way they think others might have an interest in seeing, feel free to post to show what you are doing.
Terrain and landscapes - again - it can be interesting to see how people do things. Very few people buy their layouts with landscapes already made and painted, with grass added and what not.
Mind you - I am not calling for any earnest young teenagers to do an excruciatingly detailed step-by-step guide illustrated with 250 out-of-focus pictures on "how to build a basic Walthers Cornerstone building" or "how to add plaster cloth over chicken wire" or similar teach-your-grandma-to-suck-eggs subjects.
But it would be a lot more interesting if people actually discussed modeling techniques, tricks and tips, instead of trying to create definitions for how to classify people into some overly simpleminded category or other.
Grin,Stein, who put some things on the layout as it come out of the box, build some kits according to instructions, do some kitbashing and some scratchbuilding - feel free to find a suitable label for me :-)
steinjrfeel free to find a suitable label for me :-)
As you wish.
How about...
ummm...
(thinking )
Model Railroader !!!
It would be interesting to see an uncontest of some sort,where every participant built the same model. Maybe just a thread labeled say"lets see your version of the Walthers mine". Just for "funsies".
CNJ831:
rekleinIt would be interesting to see an uncontest of some sort,where every participant built the same model. Maybe just a thread labeled say"lets see your version of the Walthers mine". Just for "funsies".
Sir Madog I am surprised, that this thread has reached page 6 without entering into the heated debate this issue usually ends up in, forcing the mods to declare an end. But what have we learned so far? I am afraid, nothing new. There are as many different kinds of model railroaders as there are people and there is an industry, that caters for the specific needs of all, well, almost all. Kit-, scratch building, RTR - there is room for all kind of aspects, for all kind of gauges, for all kind of prototypes, regions - you name it! This variety makes the hobby the most fascinating one and us model railroaders a great bunch of people. Let´s not spoil the fun we are having by putting up boundaries and categories!
Every time I see people trying to build walls around themselves/others, I hop into the cockpit, fire up the engine, engage the lift fans and rise above it all, observing the 'categorizers' and the 'includers' with wry good humor while enjoying the entire panoramic view. Then I fly off to observe either some prototype I have enjoyed in the past or one I had never before considered.
Granted that my MODELING is concerned with only one very limited prototype (one place, one month) my INTERESTS span both of the spectra I listed in earlier posts and a bunch of others I haven't mentioned. Whatever you are doing, even if it's the Gomez Addams thing, I will derive some satisfaction if you are having fun.
Gentlefolk, over to you.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - railfanning the real and model world)
reklein It would be interesting to see an uncontest of some sort,where every participant built the same model. Maybe just a thread labeled say"lets see your version of the Walthers mine". Just for "funsies".
IIRC, the first year the UTU 'Best Caboose' contest was included in the NMRA National Convention the prototype was specified - the 4-wheel hack where the Union was founded in 1879. Any scale, any choice or combination of commercial and scratchbuilt details, any material from cardstock to brass - but it had to be that one caboose.
They got a tableful, many from modelers who modeled prototypes that never had track within a thousand miles of Northeastern Pennsylvania.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 4-wheel brake vans)
Here is my .
RTR : open the box and on the layout, no adjustments needed or desired.
Upgraded RTR : replace couplers, wheels, weathering etc. anything that maintains the units integrity while making it look used.
Kitbashing : taking one thing and making something different out of it For example, taking a Bachmann 2-8-0 and making it into a 2-8-0 Camelback (yes there were some)
Scratchbuilding: buying and or making all the parts for something and building it from the ground up. for example, building the bolsters and underframe for a 1900s flat coal gon,building up the sides board by board (wood or styrene) adding the outside bracing and all the rest. Trucks would have to be purchased unless someone has the time and metalworking skills to make them .
I do agree that we are all Model Railroaders, I think at different times we all have to do a bit of everything to get where we are going in the hobby. I don't think that there is a correct answer or philosophy except the one that works best for each of us.