So you want essentially the "P2K" steam engine, boxed with assembled mechanism, but buyer finishes the boiler and tender to their particular taste.
Only challenge is many guys don't wanna spend the time anymore (yes there will always be a few).
John
UP 4-12-2Heck, my friend Bill Vandermeer is an excellent painter--and he takes between 15 and 20 hours on average to disassemble, strip lacquer from, and just paint/letter/reassemble a brass engine.
And I can darn well see that.
In the case of all the hole drilling and that for the boilers---I've been looking awful closely at what that cnc milling/cutter can do. My friend is making up a batch of idler arms for a racing engine builder near TO. 60 pieces cut, drilled and edges trimmed/deburred in about 5 minutes. We did a few trial runs with this on about 20 ABS plastic---pseudo boilers---and did all within 15 minutes.
There is a difference between processes as well. Casting wheels, and then deburring and trimming flash is not as long either if done in an organized fashion. I'm doing a lot of process work here as well.
Mind. We are doing a lot of learning curves as we go along here. I'm not proposing a start up in a few weeks!! lol!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
UP 4-12-2 So you want essentially the "P2K" steam engine, boxed with assembled mechanism, but buyer finishes the boiler and tender to their particular taste. Only challenge is many guys don't wanna spend the time anymore (yes there will always be a few). John
Yes, I think it would be one option. true, many people today want RTR, but many also build kits of varing dificulty. If you eliminated the need to build the mechanism, you might be surprised at the interest. Not really any different then when I buy a P2K or Intermountain diesel undecorated.
Sheldon
There you go, announce that you're about to go into the loco biz and then delaying the release date.
So, can we expect something in a couple of years? IIRC, that's about how long Athearn took between announcement of their ALCO PA-1 40 or so years ago and the time it actually took to hit the shelves.
Andre
andrechapelon Mind. We are doing a lot of learning curves as we go along here. I'm not proposing a start up in a few weeks!! lol! There you go, announce that you're about to go into the loco biz and then delaying the release date. So, can we expect something in a couple of years? IIRC, that's about how long Athearn took between announcement of their ALCO PA-1 40 or so years ago and the time it actually took to hit the shelves. Andre
GEE Thanks!! I just about lost my coffee up my nose!!
Actually I'm looking at a few more months!! Like about 8 months to a year!
We still have to tool up y'know---sheeesh
BTW Sheldon---I'll keep that offer in mind--thanks----
Casting wheels completely may not be a good idea?
Usually the tires are pressed fit onto the wheels, with any insulating fiber (if needed) between the tire and the wheel.
Alternatively, if you cast the wheels, will they then be turned to true concentric? How will you control to assure the wheels are round?
UP 4-12-2 Casting wheels completely may not be a good idea? Usually the tires are pressed fit onto the wheels, with any insulating fiber (if needed) between the tire and the wheel. Alternatively, if you cast the wheels, will they then be turned to true concentric? How will you control to assure the wheels are round?
I didn't say that it would be but I've done it---and finished them to true concentric.
Now---with cnc milling one could get it done a lot quicker.
Heck--the bed on this is 4x4'---how many blanks do you think can get done vs casting?
All I want is a little more than I will ever have.
More steamers would be nice too.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I'll chime in because I've looked at the business case of producing a metal locomotive kit. I did not have access or knowledge of CNC or other newer production methods, so I couldn't come up with a business model that worked about 5 years ago.
Based on our New Zealand and Brit friends, as well as small US guys like David Hoffman and Keith Wiseman, I would say that you need to be profitable with a production run of 200 (or less). David Hoffman supposedly bought up Roundhouse, PSC, and NWSL parts to put together 200 Shays based on a combo MDC/NWSL chassis. The chassis comes assembled, with the superstructure in kit form with parts for specific prototypes. Cost is $200. He still has kits to sell about 4-5 months after the announcement circulated through the appropriate Yahoo Groups. Keith Wiseman made a barebones parts kit for the NPC "Freak", a cab forward 4-4-0 in HOn3. Cost is $200, and he has yet to sell out. I believe he made a run of about 200 as well.
You can probably get $300-$350 for a limited number of kits that featured NWSL-quality drive trains and recent plastic locomotive-quality detail sets. Throw in a Hi-bass speaker (with provisions for mounting engineered in) and an OEM Tsunami (like Bachmann or Athearn use), and you'd probably sell all 200 kits within 2 years.
I say that because of the brass and old kit upgrade costs. I recently bought an FED 2-6-0 for perhaps slightly lower than market price of $155. Remotor kit from LocoDoc for Falberhauer coreless motor and other parts is $100. PSC detail parts to adequately detail the loco is another $50 minimum. Similar costs exist for all the popular brass or OOP steam kits when all is said and done.
Probably the biggest potential unfilled niche in HO standard gauge is the 2-6-0. Unfortunately, just like 4-4-0s, a single model chassis won't even come close to the wide variety of 2-6-0s that were made. Everything from Porter's tea kettles to the SP's Valley Mallets - obviously one chassis isn't even going to be close to even half the various prototypes.
just my thoughts
Fred W
A 4-4-0 Early American that has the drive in the engine instead of the tender like those currently available
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
The thing I do NOT get is that we have companies that are making the same engine in the same scale. Right now (or at least very recently and very soon) you have 2 companies making NKP/PM/C&O style 2-8-4s. Once company that made a ton of them but I do not think is any more and one company that is about to start making these. I just do not get it. That is a huge amount of capital tied up in what is (as far as the modeler is considered) the same engine.
Would this not have been better to be used to build something new that we do not have already?
As for new engines I would like to see a C&O 2-8-2 but I would be surprised if that happend as C&O is not a huge model base. But then again a LOT of folks that do not model a prototype do like the look of the C&O K3s.
Something that I think may sell well would be a small 2-8-0 (believe it or not the Bachmann is a bit large for a lot of prototype 2-8-0s) but more importantly one that does not have the same driver spacing on all drivers. A lot of prototype 2-8-0s had an uneven spacing.
And the cost of doing boilers must be a LOT more then you think, as Bachmann is taking the USRA 2-6-6-2. Putting an all new tender behind it and replacing the front cylinders to turn what is a model of a C&O H-5 into a C&O H-4. However they are NOT replacing the boiler top do the domes will not be in the correct location (I think this is because the location of the screw that secures the boiler at least in part) or the correct shape. So if the boilers where so cheep to replace I am sure that Bachmann would have replaced this part also.
Doug M
They used a completely new tender, apparently used the cab off the J-2 and a slide valve front engine. They got close without having to re-invent everything and got something close enough to please all but the most anal of C&O fans. They did it with the USRA heavy 4-8-2, creating the rebuilt C&O J-2. I'll grant you the J-2 started off as a USRA heavy, but apparently Bachmann saw a market for the C&O upgraded version.
Now, if they'd only use the same mechanism to do an SP MM-3. #3930 got a 16,000 gallon tender late in life like Bachmann's so called "Hicken". The cab's wrong and the compressors were both mounted on the fireman's side (not to mention the "problem" with the domes), but what the heck? Redetailing the USRA 2-6-6-2 into a passable MM-3 is entirely feasible given that Bachmann's not likely to do it.
Maybe if Bowser had sold a boiler and cab assembly resembling SP practice and using the Pennsy M1a chassis, they might have sold more 4-8-2 kits. Rigid wheelbase not quite identical (SP had an extra 6" between the first drive axle and second to accommodate a lateral motion device). Shoot, they had the tender, it would have been a slam dunk, relatively speaking. They could have done a Harriman Heavy Pacific boiler and used the K4 mechanism. OK, the Harriman's used 77" drivers and the K4's 80", but the difference is hard to spot with the naked eye. There are several other Pacifics that could have been done with the K4 chassis including any NYC Pacific with 79" drivers, Santa Fe 3400 class as rebuilt, the B&M P-4(a and b), B&O P-7 variants and the C&EI USRA Heavy copies.
You gotta give Bachmann credit for using what they have as an entry point to create something new using off the shelf mechanisms.
Yes, as I've tried to indicate all along the cost of boilers--especially for more than the tiny production quantities and innovative processes envisioned by some on this thread--as well as other tooling--IS more than people think (at least in the U.S.).
I've heard secondhand that some of the Bowser freight cars (ie not the N-5C cabooses--those sold well enough, but the other cabooses) have yet to pay for the cost of the tooling.
Based on prices I was quoted years ago when I worked at Bowser, the cost of tooling to do a new boiler today could easily be several hundred thousand dollars (in the U.S.). It's not just the boiler either, but the other details that go on it, that add to the cost.
Bachmann is being smart by getting as much mileage as they can out of existing tooling, even if the final product is not as exacting as some might want.
Also--speaking historically--I was at Bowser when they were still bringing out the last new steam locomotives kits (I think I drilled all the holes in the boilers for the first batches of M-1's and M-1A's they ever did, and it took months). At least one guy doing research and development was an SPF (slobbering Pennsy freak). Also, being in the East, they saw their market niche as being PRR and/or a little bit of NYC, plus a few USRA engines or USRA "might have beens", and the 2 UP engines.
What I'm saying is--with all the effort they were making to be as correct as they could for PRR--they did not have any time to devote to looking at other roads especially those in the Southwest like SP. Even then, they very likely would have considered SP to be "Athearn's Territory". It is my belief they would have considered B&O or C&O locomotives before SP--yet they never went there.
You have to understand--they only had 2 or 3 people tops doing R&D--and those people were also busy trying to run the factory, train the employees, run the successful mail order operation, run a model train distributorship, handle repairs, and wait on retail customers in the store.
The R&D that got done was likely on their own time, at home, reading the MR Cyclopedia and other books dreaming about what they might do.
As I was a slobbering Santa Fe fan at the time, I certainly could and did lobby for "something western" which Frank Ulman and others just chuckled at.
One of their best ideas, from a marketing standpoint, was putting their mechanism under the Bachmann steamers. They sold a ton of those mechanisms.
So I'm sorry to say, they were so busy focusing on "their niche" that they likely would never have known about the possibility of doing a "close" SP engine. And being in the East, if it did occur to them, they would have seriously underestimated the sales potential of such engines. (btw Timonium is a great show at which to buy western U.S. steam power!).
They were well aware of which L-1's went to Santa Fe and what the Santa Fe road numbers were--but never released any factory painted Santa Fe L-1's that I'm aware of.
UP 4-12-2Based on prices I was quoted years ago when I worked at Bowser, the cost of tooling to do a new boiler today could easily be several hundred thousand dollars (in the U.S.). It's not just the boiler either, but the other details that go on it, that add to the cost.
Some prices for the tooling for one boiler was said recently to be close to $1 million. Probably in that ball park. If so then that would most likely explain the incredibly long lead times to production we are seeing. It may take years just for some company to get the financing arrangements together, let alone actually get the tooling done. Which makes one wonder why there is no effort made to look for other ways to do the tooling.
My one colleague I'm working with told me at one time that to make up a chassis for his Altered Fuelie dragster he found that it supposedly was going to cost him around $60,000---just for the chassis!! In his case---he went and started mucking about with what he had in his reach--bar stock etc---and finished one off within a month--tested it---and then won a few races with it---all within a few months of starting it---total cost=$7,000.
My wish list is fairly short:
In general, I would like to see more highly detailed rolling stock kits for both passenger and freight cars - just for the fun of putting them together. With the prevailing trend, this is most unlikely to happen.
Sir Madog In general, I would like to see more highly detailed rolling stock kits for both passenger and freight cars - just for the fun of putting them together. With the prevailing trend, this is most unlikely to happen.
Actually there are a lot more of the requested detailed rolling stock kits out there than most people realize. They are made by one or two man shops, usually cast in resin or made with laser cut wood. Both these methods are well suited to very low rate production and have low up front capital costs in comparison. But you won't see very many of these kits advertised in Model Railroader - advertising costs are too high for the limited production and demand. And how many years has it been since MR reviewed car kits on a regular basis in Trade Topics (now Product Reviews)? So you have to belong/subscribe to the niche group communication tools - pertinent Yahoo Groups, newsletters, niche magazines, etc - to know about these kits.
In Early Rail, we have at least 9 producers of these types of car kits (I'm sure there are others I don't recall) who put out new or re-run kits on a regular basis - Alkem, BTS, Silver Crash Car Works, Art Griffin, Amesville Shoppes, Labelle, Ye Olde Huff n Puff, Trout Creek Engineering, etc.
Resin molds typically last for a production run of 50 or so before a new mold is needed. The level of detail is mostly controlled by the care with which the master was built. Spin casting and photo-etching are fairly cost-effective low rate production methods for metal parts - but neither is a great solution for a boiler casting.
JavelinaWhat say you? Are we stuck with our current choices or are we willing to do some of the more specific chores to make our engines more prototypical? What would you call a good compromise, if you're willing to compromise? Lou
What say you? Are we stuck with our current choices or are we willing to do some of the more specific chores to make our engines more prototypical? What would you call a good compromise, if you're willing to compromise?
Lou
I don't know about anybody else but I'm willing to do more "work" to get what I want.
However, that said, here are some of the trouble / sticking spots:
1. How does a beginner or unfamiliar modeler get information about "what is lacking" so as to be able to make an intelligent choice for add-on details?
2. If the answer to #1 is that the mfgr "will supply all details for all roads in all eras" and the modeler can decide... good luck with that.
3. Many of the detail items you're referring to, or that people might actually want, would likely require that the loco be repainted and/or re-lettered after they've been applied. How will that be handled? Many modelers probably don't have those skills.
4. Same question as #3 with respect to glue drips, sloppy application, etc. Many modelers buy highly-detailed factory locomotives precisely because they don't have the skills, or the time, or the whatever to do it themselves. Or maybe they like to do some but not all of it themselves. What about that? How is that handled?
5. If the list of "interchangeable" parts (by which I mean, "in-general", not that every possible combination works with every possible part), includes drivers, valve gear, etc-- then nobody is really likely to be put off by small variation of those details, wouldn't you say?
JavelinaIf we want heavier, more "tonnage" capable locos is it possible we may have to compromise on the RTR concept to regain affordability and useful pulling power. BUT, if we're willing to accept some less than ideal aspects of a model (if it's "customizable" enough) maybe we can have our cake and eat at least some of it.
In one manner of speaking that is already the case now and has been so for quite some time. However, IMO, the "heft" (weight) of the model is not really all that much of a problem for most models. Perhaps some would be too small or too tricky to create with enough heft-- but in my view, the biggest problem is that there are a lot of people who have bought in to the idea that "metal is expensive", to which I simply have to say Horse-Hockey. (Most) metal is only expensive in certain *shapes*, which likely corresponds to one of the shapes you happen to want, and thus the price presented to you seems higher than it should be.
How many years ago? Was this before CAD/CAM?
Personally, I doubt such a high figure. If you have to pay for the tooling on the first 5000 units, the cost is $200/boiler if the cost is $1,000,000. On 50,000 units, it's $20.
So, how many M1 kits did Bowser sell over the years? Did they recover their tooling costs?
You said in another post that Bowser's "R&D department" was very small and had other tasks. Outside sources could have provided the information they needed for an SP 4-8-2 or other prototypes with drivers in the 72-74" range (e.g. MP, RI, FEC, GN, SBD, etc).
If we're gonna talk steam, how about some plastic models of road engines with straight boilers instead of those ubiquitous tapered USRA type boilers? How many railways actually ran 4-6-2, 2-8-2, 4-8-2, and 2-10-2 locos with tapered boilers?
aloco If we're gonna talk steam, how about some plastic models of road engines with straight boilers instead of those ubiquitous tapered USRA type boilers? How many railways actually ran 4-6-2, 2-8-2, 4-8-2, and 2-10-2 locos with tapered boilers?
Quite a few of them. SP, Pennsy, NYC, Southern, L&N, C&O, B&O, C&NW, GN, ATSF, T&P, MP, NC&StL, Soo, Wabash, to name a few. OK,so the Soo and NC&StL didn't have 2-10-2's, at least not that I know of.
JavelinaSo I thought I'd just shake the idea tree a little and see what falls out. I don't expect all the fruit to be ripe or even edible. Lou
So I thought I'd just shake the idea tree a little and see what falls out. I don't expect all the fruit to be ripe or even edible.
Be careful shaking that 'cause you might shake some of the monkeys out too!
I sujested this very same thing several months ago after taking a survey on what engines we would like to see. A generic engine, say a 4-6-0 Camelback. Then have a list of optional equipment that could be ordered from the manufacturer to make it more prototypical too your favorite road. Hopefully someone in the industry will take note of this and act on it.
UP 4-12-2Casting wheels completely may not be a good idea? Usually the tires are pressed fit onto the wheels, with any insulating fiber (if needed) between the tire and the wheel. Alternatively, if you cast the wheels, will they then be turned to true concentric? How will you control to assure the wheels are round?
Round is so overrated, IMO...
andrechapelon Based on prices I was quoted years ago when I worked at Bowser, the cost of tooling to do a new boiler today could easily be several hundred thousand dollars (in the U.S.). It's not just the boiler either, but the other details that go on it, that add to the cost. How many years ago? Was this before CAD/CAM? Personally, I doubt such a high figure. If you have to pay for the tooling on the first 5000 units, the cost is $200/boiler if the cost is $1,000,000. On 50,000 units, it's $20. So, how many M1 kits did Bowser sell over the years? Did they recover their tooling costs? You said in another post that Bowser's "R&D department" was very small and had other tasks. Outside sources could have provided the information they needed for an SP 4-8-2 or other prototypes with drivers in the 72-74" range (e.g. MP, RI, FEC, GN, SBD, etc). Andre
Andre--
Bowser's "R&D Department", if you will, consisted of Lee English, who is still running the factory today, his father, Lewis Sr.--the main repair technician and toy train expert, and Frank Ulman, the main retail store salesperson--all of whom had plenty of other work tasks besides merely R&D. In fact, total company employees back then were between 25 and 30, with several being part-time or summer/weekend college students like myself. Most were involved in production or mail order.
They had cadd drafting at the time and employed a part time cadd drafter--but you must also understand some of the dies they had were 30 years old even then--and at that time (late 1980's/early 1990's) the tooling cost of bringing a new steam engine to market from scratch--from the ground up with new tender was easily $250,000 to $300,000 (in 1988) and possibly more. Also--when you have working molds and dies to make a product, you typically don't just trash them when new technology comes along--it would be too expensive to replace some of those items--let alone all of them at one time. That's why even with plastic diesels, Bowser is still using the Stewart molds--the costs of totally replacing the molds is prohibitive for anything previously released. They are upgrading the molds with minor improvements that they feel can be cost justified.
The main die maker they worked with lived in Florida, and might take several months to finish a project.
How many M-1's and M-1A's? Maybe 800 kits in the first run--which might've taken 6 months to a year to sell out before they would have made more. Did the tooling pay for itself? I don't know; as a laborer/retail sales person I didn't have access to the records, only what Lee felt like sharing with us. Perhaps I have a good memory for some details, that's about it.
Regarding outside sources providing information: you must also understand that having a retail store, pretty much every day somebody came in and said "I want this or that and you should make this or that--it will sell". However, a manufacturer usually needs good prototype photos and drawings, etc., and quite frankly unless somebody showed up with a "builders' package" of information, their suggestion usually would not have been taken very seriously. Especially anyone in central PA suggesting that they make something Santa Fe or Southern Pacific--when very nice Rivarossi Blue Goose's sat on the shelf, brand new, for many years at only $100. (I bought one that apparently had been there forever).
Santa Fe or SP merchandise (excepting the latest hottest diesel) is considered a virtual door stop here in Central PA. Even today, that store's "Santa Fe" customers number all of 6 people, and I can name most of them by name. Many more people will buy BNSF because they see it today.
I've met some of the folks, typically retired mechanical engineers or electrical engineers with lots of time on their hands and a penchant for doing great research, who actually put together the "builders' package" of information for Challenger Imports and/or other importers. The standard payment for the many hundreds of hours putting that package together is typically one free brass model when they actually get made. It's considered a "labor of love", not money.
By all means, if anyone out there can bring manufacturing back to the U.S. and compete with Atlas, Athearn, Walthers/P2K or the others, and can make a fine new steam engine that hasn't been done and make money at--please have at it. I might be one of the very first to buy it!
Best wishes--
I want my job back so that I can continue to pay for the roof over the model railroad I want to build and fill it with engines and cars that I want to make up the logging railroad I want to build.
What really sucks is that now is great to refinance a home which would save us lots of money. However my credit was excellent so my lender paid the pmi. Problem is that no one will refinance me because my lender is paying the pmi. What a friggin crock. Just when I though I had found a way save money and keep the house I get kicked in the side again by the man. Screw the government who said having an airplane for business is bad. Screw the government for giving breaks to those companies who got rid of their planes and put 20,000 pilots out of work(not to mention line crew, base operators and support crew). I would like to see the government sell all their airplanes and drive or fly commercial to all their important Hawaii vacations.
I want a real government not a bunch of overpaid idiots!!
My 2 cents
alco's forever!!!!! Majoring in HO scale Minorig in O scale:)
jwhitten Javelina So I thought I'd just shake the idea tree a little and see what falls out. I don't expect all the fruit to be ripe or even edible. Lou Be careful shaking that 'cause you might shake some of the monkeys out too!
Javelina So I thought I'd just shake the idea tree a little and see what falls out. I don't expect all the fruit to be ripe or even edible. Lou
Even if careful, you might want to use a crash helmet!!
Sounds like everyone was stretched to the limit and maybe beyond which maybe made their vision a bit myopic.
No one, certainly not myself, has suggested Bowser should have released a new locomotive from scratch. However, by the 80's, Bowser had a considerable number of mechanisms that could easily have been used for other than Pennsy prototypes. That's the tragedy of the whole situation. Of all the old-time steam manufacturers, Bowser had the greatest variety of mechanisms that could have been used for other engines. Like I said, they could have come out with an SP style 4-8-2 and had everything on hand to do so except for the boiler/cab casting. Their 69" driver Mountain mechanism could not only be used for a USRA light and heavy, but also Santa Fe and Frisco 4-8-2's, not to mention some of the IC mountains (some of which were converted USRA Heavy 2-10-2's).
There's no reason why Bowser should redo the Stewart molds and no one is suggesting that. The addition of detail and sound certainly makes them competitive. Nonetheless it is ironic that there are 4 major manufacturers of EMD F units but no one apparently willing to take the risk to create a market for something new rather than trying to grab market share from the other guy. We have Big Boys coming out the wazoo, but we can't get Harriman Pacifics to save our lives.
I had been in the investment casting business and worked a lot with Chinese manufacturers - mainly for the reason of the cost of mold and pattern making. In China, they are able to make the molds for only a third of the price it would cost to have them made in Germany or the US. Mold and pattern makers there have already developed a high degree of skill and quality. Molds and patterns are by far the most expensive part of a loco model - that´s way the industry prefers to market models they think they have the biggest chance to market. A product policy, which caters for a niche market with limited runs, is doomed right from the beginning, unless you are able to charge prices in the range of what we see here in Europe. But who´d be willing to pay up to $ 800 for a sound equipped plastic loco?