UP 4-12-2Casting wheels completely may not be a good idea? Usually the tires are pressed fit onto the wheels, with any insulating fiber (if needed) between the tire and the wheel. Alternatively, if you cast the wheels, will they then be turned to true concentric? How will you control to assure the wheels are round?
Casting wheels completely may not be a good idea?
Usually the tires are pressed fit onto the wheels, with any insulating fiber (if needed) between the tire and the wheel.
Alternatively, if you cast the wheels, will they then be turned to true concentric? How will you control to assure the wheels are round?
Round is so overrated, IMO...
I sujested this very same thing several months ago after taking a survey on what engines we would like to see. A generic engine, say a 4-6-0 Camelback. Then have a list of optional equipment that could be ordered from the manufacturer to make it more prototypical too your favorite road. Hopefully someone in the industry will take note of this and act on it.
JavelinaSo I thought I'd just shake the idea tree a little and see what falls out. I don't expect all the fruit to be ripe or even edible. Lou
So I thought I'd just shake the idea tree a little and see what falls out. I don't expect all the fruit to be ripe or even edible.
Lou
Be careful shaking that 'cause you might shake some of the monkeys out too!
aloco If we're gonna talk steam, how about some plastic models of road engines with straight boilers instead of those ubiquitous tapered USRA type boilers? How many railways actually ran 4-6-2, 2-8-2, 4-8-2, and 2-10-2 locos with tapered boilers?
If we're gonna talk steam, how about some plastic models of road engines with straight boilers instead of those ubiquitous tapered USRA type boilers? How many railways actually ran 4-6-2, 2-8-2, 4-8-2, and 2-10-2 locos with tapered boilers?
Quite a few of them. SP, Pennsy, NYC, Southern, L&N, C&O, B&O, C&NW, GN, ATSF, T&P, MP, NC&StL, Soo, Wabash, to name a few. OK,so the Soo and NC&StL didn't have 2-10-2's, at least not that I know of.
Andre
Based on prices I was quoted years ago when I worked at Bowser, the cost of tooling to do a new boiler today could easily be several hundred thousand dollars (in the U.S.). It's not just the boiler either, but the other details that go on it, that add to the cost.
How many years ago? Was this before CAD/CAM?
Personally, I doubt such a high figure. If you have to pay for the tooling on the first 5000 units, the cost is $200/boiler if the cost is $1,000,000. On 50,000 units, it's $20.
So, how many M1 kits did Bowser sell over the years? Did they recover their tooling costs?
You said in another post that Bowser's "R&D department" was very small and had other tasks. Outside sources could have provided the information they needed for an SP 4-8-2 or other prototypes with drivers in the 72-74" range (e.g. MP, RI, FEC, GN, SBD, etc).
JavelinaWhat say you? Are we stuck with our current choices or are we willing to do some of the more specific chores to make our engines more prototypical? What would you call a good compromise, if you're willing to compromise? Lou
What say you? Are we stuck with our current choices or are we willing to do some of the more specific chores to make our engines more prototypical? What would you call a good compromise, if you're willing to compromise?
I don't know about anybody else but I'm willing to do more "work" to get what I want.
However, that said, here are some of the trouble / sticking spots:
1. How does a beginner or unfamiliar modeler get information about "what is lacking" so as to be able to make an intelligent choice for add-on details?
2. If the answer to #1 is that the mfgr "will supply all details for all roads in all eras" and the modeler can decide... good luck with that.
3. Many of the detail items you're referring to, or that people might actually want, would likely require that the loco be repainted and/or re-lettered after they've been applied. How will that be handled? Many modelers probably don't have those skills.
4. Same question as #3 with respect to glue drips, sloppy application, etc. Many modelers buy highly-detailed factory locomotives precisely because they don't have the skills, or the time, or the whatever to do it themselves. Or maybe they like to do some but not all of it themselves. What about that? How is that handled?
5. If the list of "interchangeable" parts (by which I mean, "in-general", not that every possible combination works with every possible part), includes drivers, valve gear, etc-- then nobody is really likely to be put off by small variation of those details, wouldn't you say?
JavelinaIf we want heavier, more "tonnage" capable locos is it possible we may have to compromise on the RTR concept to regain affordability and useful pulling power. BUT, if we're willing to accept some less than ideal aspects of a model (if it's "customizable" enough) maybe we can have our cake and eat at least some of it.
In one manner of speaking that is already the case now and has been so for quite some time. However, IMO, the "heft" (weight) of the model is not really all that much of a problem for most models. Perhaps some would be too small or too tricky to create with enough heft-- but in my view, the biggest problem is that there are a lot of people who have bought in to the idea that "metal is expensive", to which I simply have to say Horse-Hockey. (Most) metal is only expensive in certain *shapes*, which likely corresponds to one of the shapes you happen to want, and thus the price presented to you seems higher than it should be.
Sir Madog In general, I would like to see more highly detailed rolling stock kits for both passenger and freight cars - just for the fun of putting them together. With the prevailing trend, this is most unlikely to happen.
In general, I would like to see more highly detailed rolling stock kits for both passenger and freight cars - just for the fun of putting them together. With the prevailing trend, this is most unlikely to happen.
Actually there are a lot more of the requested detailed rolling stock kits out there than most people realize. They are made by one or two man shops, usually cast in resin or made with laser cut wood. Both these methods are well suited to very low rate production and have low up front capital costs in comparison. But you won't see very many of these kits advertised in Model Railroader - advertising costs are too high for the limited production and demand. And how many years has it been since MR reviewed car kits on a regular basis in Trade Topics (now Product Reviews)? So you have to belong/subscribe to the niche group communication tools - pertinent Yahoo Groups, newsletters, niche magazines, etc - to know about these kits.
In Early Rail, we have at least 9 producers of these types of car kits (I'm sure there are others I don't recall) who put out new or re-run kits on a regular basis - Alkem, BTS, Silver Crash Car Works, Art Griffin, Amesville Shoppes, Labelle, Ye Olde Huff n Puff, Trout Creek Engineering, etc.
Resin molds typically last for a production run of 50 or so before a new mold is needed. The level of detail is mostly controlled by the care with which the master was built. Spin casting and photo-etching are fairly cost-effective low rate production methods for metal parts - but neither is a great solution for a boiler casting.
just my thoughts
Fred W
My wish list is fairly short:
UP 4-12-2Based on prices I was quoted years ago when I worked at Bowser, the cost of tooling to do a new boiler today could easily be several hundred thousand dollars (in the U.S.). It's not just the boiler either, but the other details that go on it, that add to the cost.
Some prices for the tooling for one boiler was said recently to be close to $1 million. Probably in that ball park. If so then that would most likely explain the incredibly long lead times to production we are seeing. It may take years just for some company to get the financing arrangements together, let alone actually get the tooling done. Which makes one wonder why there is no effort made to look for other ways to do the tooling.
My one colleague I'm working with told me at one time that to make up a chassis for his Altered Fuelie dragster he found that it supposedly was going to cost him around $60,000---just for the chassis!! In his case---he went and started mucking about with what he had in his reach--bar stock etc---and finished one off within a month--tested it---and then won a few races with it---all within a few months of starting it---total cost=$7,000.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Also--speaking historically--I was at Bowser when they were still bringing out the last new steam locomotives kits (I think I drilled all the holes in the boilers for the first batches of M-1's and M-1A's they ever did, and it took months). At least one guy doing research and development was an SPF (slobbering Pennsy freak). Also, being in the East, they saw their market niche as being PRR and/or a little bit of NYC, plus a few USRA engines or USRA "might have beens", and the 2 UP engines.
What I'm saying is--with all the effort they were making to be as correct as they could for PRR--they did not have any time to devote to looking at other roads especially those in the Southwest like SP. Even then, they very likely would have considered SP to be "Athearn's Territory". It is my belief they would have considered B&O or C&O locomotives before SP--yet they never went there.
You have to understand--they only had 2 or 3 people tops doing R&D--and those people were also busy trying to run the factory, train the employees, run the successful mail order operation, run a model train distributorship, handle repairs, and wait on retail customers in the store.
The R&D that got done was likely on their own time, at home, reading the MR Cyclopedia and other books dreaming about what they might do.
As I was a slobbering Santa Fe fan at the time, I certainly could and did lobby for "something western" which Frank Ulman and others just chuckled at.
One of their best ideas, from a marketing standpoint, was putting their mechanism under the Bachmann steamers. They sold a ton of those mechanisms.
So I'm sorry to say, they were so busy focusing on "their niche" that they likely would never have known about the possibility of doing a "close" SP engine. And being in the East, if it did occur to them, they would have seriously underestimated the sales potential of such engines. (btw Timonium is a great show at which to buy western U.S. steam power!).
They were well aware of which L-1's went to Santa Fe and what the Santa Fe road numbers were--but never released any factory painted Santa Fe L-1's that I'm aware of.
John
Yes, as I've tried to indicate all along the cost of boilers--especially for more than the tiny production quantities and innovative processes envisioned by some on this thread--as well as other tooling--IS more than people think (at least in the U.S.).
I've heard secondhand that some of the Bowser freight cars (ie not the N-5C cabooses--those sold well enough, but the other cabooses) have yet to pay for the cost of the tooling.
Bachmann is being smart by getting as much mileage as they can out of existing tooling, even if the final product is not as exacting as some might want.
And the cost of doing boilers must be a LOT more then you think, as Bachmann is taking the USRA 2-6-6-2. Putting an all new tender behind it and replacing the front cylinders to turn what is a model of a C&O H-5 into a C&O H-4. However they are NOT replacing the boiler top do the domes will not be in the correct location (I think this is because the location of the screw that secures the boiler at least in part) or the correct shape. So if the boilers where so cheep to replace I am sure that Bachmann would have replaced this part also.
They used a completely new tender, apparently used the cab off the J-2 and a slide valve front engine. They got close without having to re-invent everything and got something close enough to please all but the most anal of C&O fans. They did it with the USRA heavy 4-8-2, creating the rebuilt C&O J-2. I'll grant you the J-2 started off as a USRA heavy, but apparently Bachmann saw a market for the C&O upgraded version.
Now, if they'd only use the same mechanism to do an SP MM-3. #3930 got a 16,000 gallon tender late in life like Bachmann's so called "Hicken". The cab's wrong and the compressors were both mounted on the fireman's side (not to mention the "problem" with the domes), but what the heck? Redetailing the USRA 2-6-6-2 into a passable MM-3 is entirely feasible given that Bachmann's not likely to do it.
Maybe if Bowser had sold a boiler and cab assembly resembling SP practice and using the Pennsy M1a chassis, they might have sold more 4-8-2 kits. Rigid wheelbase not quite identical (SP had an extra 6" between the first drive axle and second to accommodate a lateral motion device). Shoot, they had the tender, it would have been a slam dunk, relatively speaking. They could have done a Harriman Heavy Pacific boiler and used the K4 mechanism. OK, the Harriman's used 77" drivers and the K4's 80", but the difference is hard to spot with the naked eye. There are several other Pacifics that could have been done with the K4 chassis including any NYC Pacific with 79" drivers, Santa Fe 3400 class as rebuilt, the B&M P-4(a and b), B&O P-7 variants and the C&EI USRA Heavy copies.
You gotta give Bachmann credit for using what they have as an entry point to create something new using off the shelf mechanisms.
The thing I do NOT get is that we have companies that are making the same engine in the same scale. Right now (or at least very recently and very soon) you have 2 companies making NKP/PM/C&O style 2-8-4s. Once company that made a ton of them but I do not think is any more and one company that is about to start making these. I just do not get it. That is a huge amount of capital tied up in what is (as far as the modeler is considered) the same engine.
Would this not have been better to be used to build something new that we do not have already?
As for new engines I would like to see a C&O 2-8-2 but I would be surprised if that happend as C&O is not a huge model base. But then again a LOT of folks that do not model a prototype do like the look of the C&O K3s.
Something that I think may sell well would be a small 2-8-0 (believe it or not the Bachmann is a bit large for a lot of prototype 2-8-0s) but more importantly one that does not have the same driver spacing on all drivers. A lot of prototype 2-8-0s had an uneven spacing.
Doug M
A 4-4-0 Early American that has the drive in the engine instead of the tender like those currently available
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
I'll chime in because I've looked at the business case of producing a metal locomotive kit. I did not have access or knowledge of CNC or other newer production methods, so I couldn't come up with a business model that worked about 5 years ago.
Based on our New Zealand and Brit friends, as well as small US guys like David Hoffman and Keith Wiseman, I would say that you need to be profitable with a production run of 200 (or less). David Hoffman supposedly bought up Roundhouse, PSC, and NWSL parts to put together 200 Shays based on a combo MDC/NWSL chassis. The chassis comes assembled, with the superstructure in kit form with parts for specific prototypes. Cost is $200. He still has kits to sell about 4-5 months after the announcement circulated through the appropriate Yahoo Groups. Keith Wiseman made a barebones parts kit for the NPC "Freak", a cab forward 4-4-0 in HOn3. Cost is $200, and he has yet to sell out. I believe he made a run of about 200 as well.
You can probably get $300-$350 for a limited number of kits that featured NWSL-quality drive trains and recent plastic locomotive-quality detail sets. Throw in a Hi-bass speaker (with provisions for mounting engineered in) and an OEM Tsunami (like Bachmann or Athearn use), and you'd probably sell all 200 kits within 2 years.
I say that because of the brass and old kit upgrade costs. I recently bought an FED 2-6-0 for perhaps slightly lower than market price of $155. Remotor kit from LocoDoc for Falberhauer coreless motor and other parts is $100. PSC detail parts to adequately detail the loco is another $50 minimum. Similar costs exist for all the popular brass or OOP steam kits when all is said and done.
Probably the biggest potential unfilled niche in HO standard gauge is the 2-6-0. Unfortunately, just like 4-4-0s, a single model chassis won't even come close to the wide variety of 2-6-0s that were made. Everything from Porter's tea kettles to the SP's Valley Mallets - obviously one chassis isn't even going to be close to even half the various prototypes.
All I want is a little more than I will ever have.
More steamers would be nice too.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
UP 4-12-2 Casting wheels completely may not be a good idea? Usually the tires are pressed fit onto the wheels, with any insulating fiber (if needed) between the tire and the wheel. Alternatively, if you cast the wheels, will they then be turned to true concentric? How will you control to assure the wheels are round?
I didn't say that it would be but I've done it---and finished them to true concentric.
Now---with cnc milling one could get it done a lot quicker.
Heck--the bed on this is 4x4'---how many blanks do you think can get done vs casting?
andrechapelon Mind. We are doing a lot of learning curves as we go along here. I'm not proposing a start up in a few weeks!! lol! There you go, announce that you're about to go into the loco biz and then delaying the release date. So, can we expect something in a couple of years? IIRC, that's about how long Athearn took between announcement of their ALCO PA-1 40 or so years ago and the time it actually took to hit the shelves. Andre
Mind. We are doing a lot of learning curves as we go along here. I'm not proposing a start up in a few weeks!! lol!
There you go, announce that you're about to go into the loco biz and then delaying the release date.
So, can we expect something in a couple of years? IIRC, that's about how long Athearn took between announcement of their ALCO PA-1 40 or so years ago and the time it actually took to hit the shelves.
GEE Thanks!! I just about lost my coffee up my nose!!
Actually I'm looking at a few more months!! Like about 8 months to a year!
We still have to tool up y'know---sheeesh
BTW Sheldon---I'll keep that offer in mind--thanks----
UP 4-12-2 So you want essentially the "P2K" steam engine, boxed with assembled mechanism, but buyer finishes the boiler and tender to their particular taste. Only challenge is many guys don't wanna spend the time anymore (yes there will always be a few). John
So you want essentially the "P2K" steam engine, boxed with assembled mechanism, but buyer finishes the boiler and tender to their particular taste.
Only challenge is many guys don't wanna spend the time anymore (yes there will always be a few).
Yes, I think it would be one option. true, many people today want RTR, but many also build kits of varing dificulty. If you eliminated the need to build the mechanism, you might be surprised at the interest. Not really any different then when I buy a P2K or Intermountain diesel undecorated.
Sheldon
UP 4-12-2Heck, my friend Bill Vandermeer is an excellent painter--and he takes between 15 and 20 hours on average to disassemble, strip lacquer from, and just paint/letter/reassemble a brass engine.
And I can darn well see that.
In the case of all the hole drilling and that for the boilers---I've been looking awful closely at what that cnc milling/cutter can do. My friend is making up a batch of idler arms for a racing engine builder near TO. 60 pieces cut, drilled and edges trimmed/deburred in about 5 minutes. We did a few trial runs with this on about 20 ABS plastic---pseudo boilers---and did all within 15 minutes.
There is a difference between processes as well. Casting wheels, and then deburring and trimming flash is not as long either if done in an organized fashion. I'm doing a lot of process work here as well.
UP 4-12-2 Oh, I follow you--but I do not believe it is possible to assemble a boiler, put weights in it, drill all the needed handrail holes, cast and apply all the needed stanchions, other detail parts, put windows in the cab (and some interior) and paint/letter the darn thing--oh, then include the lighting, final assembly of complete loco, package design, and packaging all for $40. It's just not gonna be feasible in the U.S. You're looking at likely 20 hours of labor minimum for each unit even if the assembled mechanism is supplied to you. Heck, my friend Bill Vandermeer is an excellent painter--and he takes 20 hours on average to disassemble, strip lacquer from, and just paint/letter/reassemble a brass engine. How you gonna assemble and pack a boiler for that even if you get a blackened mechanism? Then there's the tender. As I said, if it could be done, I'll line up to buy. Best wishes and good luck. John
Oh, I follow you--but I do not believe it is possible to assemble a boiler, put weights in it, drill all the needed handrail holes, cast and apply all the needed stanchions, other detail parts, put windows in the cab (and some interior) and paint/letter the darn thing--oh, then include the lighting, final assembly of complete loco, package design, and packaging all for $40.
It's just not gonna be feasible in the U.S.
You're looking at likely 20 hours of labor minimum for each unit even if the assembled mechanism is supplied to you.
Heck, my friend Bill Vandermeer is an excellent painter--and he takes 20 hours on average to disassemble, strip lacquer from, and just paint/letter/reassemble a brass engine.
How you gonna assemble and pack a boiler for that even if you get a blackened mechanism?
Then there's the tender.
As I said, if it could be done, I'll line up to buy. Best wishes and good luck.
I'm not saying it can, but I don't know that it can't.
And, I don't know about others, but I would buy a loco like that as a kit and pay that same price if the drive was complete.
You're looking at possibly 20 hours of labor minimum for each unit even if the assembled mechanism is supplied to you.
Heck, my friend Bill Vandermeer is an excellent painter--and he takes between 15 and 20 hours on average to disassemble, strip lacquer from, and just paint/letter/reassemble a brass engine.
How you gonna assemble and pack a boiler for that even if you get a blackened mechanism supplied to you?
OK, follow this if you will.
The current Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 w/DCC, no sound retails for $139.00
The all day, everyday, since they were released price at Trainworld, PeachCreek, StarHobby is about $82.00
The known wholesale cost from Bachmann direct to these dealers is about $50.00, maybe a little less.
From this we can guess that the Bachmann cost from the parent Kader is about $30.00 or less. (see why Bachmann is happy to give you a new one when they break for only $20.00)
That is for the whole loco with a basic decoder. Surely that would mean we could get Kader or someone over there to build a drive for $10 each or less if we could buy enough. How many is enough? 5,000, 10,000?
I suspect no more than 10,000 and 5,000 is likely very possible.
5,000 2-8-0 drives, 10 different boiler/tender/detail variations - 10 different locos, maybe 20 different roadnames, now we are down to only 250 pieces of each.
Not all need be packaged right away and quanitities could be shifted as demand requires.
Even if it cost $30-$40 dollars to build the rest of the model, you could sell them direct to the public for $100 each.
At that price, I bet they sell like hot cakes. So there might only be 10 guys modeling the Backwoods and Deer Creek, but they will each likely buy a whole roster, not just one piece.
UP 4-12-2We can quibble about the math, but the shipping/receiving/order taking/customer service is a lot of time and work. Was if factored into your price point? That's all I'm asking.
Oh definitely.
Ok, sorry, I'm referring to profit margin as the difference between what would be "dealer cost" (all costs to produce the item) to oneself (if selling items direct) and the full MSRP of the item(s) you are selling.
It needs to be as close as possible to 40% for your "store" to remain in business. 30% a likely minimum value--bare minimum.
The shipping, advertising, customer service, etc. has to come out somewhere. My percentages are based upon traditional train store price percentages--the "markup" they have to get to pay the bills and stay in business.
We can quibble about the math, but the shipping/receiving/order taking/customer service is a lot of time and work. Was if factored into your price point? That's all I'm asking.