Atlas dual-mode decoders aren't sound. The Gold Series with soudn use QSI decoders and have exacttly the same behavior as other sound decoders when run on DC. The loco doesn't move until the voltage reaches a level high enough to turn on the sounds, then it starts moving. This is something you just can't 'fix' and have the sounds operate on straight DC. If you didn;t care that the loco starts moving first, with no sounds, I'm sure the decodes makers could have it do that.
The original Atlas 'dual mode' locos weren;t automatic, they had jumpers. SO they would behave just liek any other DC loco - because in DC mode the decoder wasn't involved. Motor only decoders generally aren't hugely difference, about the same 'delay' as used by diode constant lighting (of the type where the diodes are in series with the motor to allow the lights to come on before it moves). However they are intended for basic DC, when you mix in fancy PWM control, which 'looks' something like the DCC signal but with invalid bit timings, the decoder doesn't know what to do. Hook up your basic Tech II and a decoder equipped loco that supports analog conversion runs just fine, but not on those fancy systems.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Sheldon,Sorry I lost this thread. It's been a busy week...I agree that what we see and hear is all we can go by, but you should post in a fashion that relates that your evidence is circumstantial and not based on more than that. That's all I'm saying.
Another question: is CTC-16, Dynatrol, Railcommand, MTH's DCS and Lionel's Trainmaster control systems counted in the DCC camp or not? None of them are "NMRA DCC" but they are not AC or DC analog, either.
Say X-mas layouts and the like count...but these types of owners don't spend as much on their entire hobby as more serious modelers spend in a month. So what's more important? The number of DCC users vs. the total number of people in the hobby? Or the amount that DCC users spend vs. the total amount spent on the hobby by everyone? IOW, do we count people or money?
As for clubs... At my club, we are a total democracy. That the 70-odd members choose to allow certain other members to be in charge is their right. Every member gets one vote, and it's theoretically possible for every single action item to be voted on by the entire membership with the majority ruling at every monthly business meeting. It can't be made any more fair than that.
On the DCC decoder front, you said, "AND, before you retort about dual mode decoders and DC, take it from me, none of those dual mode decoders, especially sound equiped ones, run worth a darn on DC." Obviously, if you've never had an Atlas dual-mode decoder, how can you make the statement above that "none of those dual mode decoders...run worth a darn on DC"? If you had limited your statement to sound locos, then I'd agree...but you didn't. So, take it from me, someone who has actually run Atlas Dual Mode decoder engines on DC, they run just like a normal Atlas Silver loco with the jumper set for DC mode.
Paul A. Cutler III
Just borrowed my Daughter's camera tonight and hopefully will be able to shoot a quick video this weekend of the SD70, along with my athearn SD60i and possibly the paragon AC6000. Since the SD60i is also running a Tsunami, they're pretty well speed matched already. I ran the SD70 with the AC6000 before changing out the decoder and I had them running pretty good but had some bemf jerking from the MTH. With the Tsunami I can disable the bemf and should have them running smoothe.
Springfield PA
Paul3 Sheldon,I could also say that the number of new DC layouts have leveled off, too. It doesn't make it true, any more than your assertion that DCC has leveled off. Unless you have some proof...? And no, some anonymous hobby shop owners don't count. The point is, neither one of us knows the facts of DCC's market size and whether it's growing or not. You really should coach your statements to better reflect that fact. It would be interesting to see DCC's actual market share. Last I heard years ago, DCC was around 25%...but of what I don't know. Did that include all the large scale and live steamers? Did that include every X-Mas layout and ping-pong table layout? I just don't know. If I had to guess, I would say that the vast majority of HO model railroad clubs have DCC in one form or another. Heck, I know almost all HO clubs in Massachusetts sure do (a rare exception is MIT...but then it's MIT. They "roll their own"). But home layouts? A tough thing to count. Web polls are all but useless. Model Railroader polls are slanted towards their readership which tend to be older and more established modelers. Sales figures would be nice, but it'll be a cold day in aitch-eee-double hockey sticks before we get that info. Hmm... BTW, have you tried the Atlas "dual mode" decoders? From what I understand, the jumper by-passes all the DCC electronics making the engine straight DC. Paul A. Cutler III
Sheldon,I could also say that the number of new DC layouts have leveled off, too. It doesn't make it true, any more than your assertion that DCC has leveled off. Unless you have some proof...? And no, some anonymous hobby shop owners don't count. The point is, neither one of us knows the facts of DCC's market size and whether it's growing or not. You really should coach your statements to better reflect that fact.
It would be interesting to see DCC's actual market share. Last I heard years ago, DCC was around 25%...but of what I don't know. Did that include all the large scale and live steamers? Did that include every X-Mas layout and ping-pong table layout? I just don't know. If I had to guess, I would say that the vast majority of HO model railroad clubs have DCC in one form or another. Heck, I know almost all HO clubs in Massachusetts sure do (a rare exception is MIT...but then it's MIT. They "roll their own"). But home layouts? A tough thing to count. Web polls are all but useless. Model Railroader polls are slanted towards their readership which tend to be older and more established modelers. Sales figures would be nice, but it'll be a cold day in aitch-eee-double hockey sticks before we get that info. Hmm...
BTW, have you tried the Atlas "dual mode" decoders? From what I understand, the jumper by-passes all the DCC electronics making the engine straight DC.
Paul, I agree, my evidence is only based on two things, what I see and here from those I know in the hobby - and, what the manufacturers are doing. And, yes it would be nice to have some hard data.
Most manufacturers seem completely committed to both systems at this point. That tells me both are selling well. That, combined with what those I know are doing makes me think its close to 50-50. But I do know shop owners who have polled their customers (including the casual Christmas tree train ones) and they say DCC users are about 35% of their market.
As for your comment about every Christmas layout or ping pong table layout, from where the manufacturers sit, they all count, they spend money on trains.
The last couple forum polls I saw (here and on the Bachmann board), where also about 50-50.
As for clubs, you know my feelings, clubs are all benevilent dictatorships run by a few modelers for the pleasure and amusement of the rest of the membership.
And I'm sure the number of new DC layouts has leveled off too, but I suspect that is mainly a function of new modelers going DCC. Sure some established modelers may use building a new layout as a conversion point, some will not. Based on what I see, most modelers over 35-40 years old, who have been in the hobby a while (more than 10-15 years) are ethier already converted to DCC or are likely not to ever convert. AND, everybody I know with a home mega layout is over 35 years old, and their are a lot of us, DCC and DC.
Why would I try and Atlas decoder? Do you mean do I have any Atlas locos? No, while I agree they are very nice, they make very little in my era and I'm quite happy with the less expensive and easier to obtain alternative products on the market. And why would I by a loco with a decoder when I can buy them without? Heck, I take them out and sell them on Ebay when locos I want come with them.
Sheldon
maxmanSo, if we agree that DCC is firmly entrenched; that most new entrants to the hobby will go DCC; and that the DC operators who will not convert to DCC will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs; what is your prediction as to which current control scheme will eventually have the majority of the market?
Unless something happens to change the current course, DCC will eventually take over, but that is likely to take at least 20 more years. That is a long time, maybe as long or longer than I have left on this earth. And some new better technology could replace or enhance DCC before that takeover is complete.
Yes we all eventually go the way of the dinosaurs, so what? I'm building and running trains now using a control system that has worked well for about 70 years or more.
I have no problem with those who prefer something different, but I predict DC will be around longer than you think.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL DCC is firmly entrenched, but even it is not the majority of the market yet. DCC may be close to 50% but that is about all. And all the shop owners I know say that growth of DCC has leveled off. Yes, most new entrants to the hobby will go DCC, and that's fine, but the number of established DC operators who are converting to DCC as slowed to almost none.
DCC is firmly entrenched, but even it is not the majority of the market yet. DCC may be close to 50% but that is about all. And all the shop owners I know say that growth of DCC has leveled off.
Yes, most new entrants to the hobby will go DCC, and that's fine, but the number of established DC operators who are converting to DCC as slowed to almost none.
So, if we agree that DCC is firmly entrenched; that most new entrants to the hobby will go DCC; and that the DC operators who will not convert to DCC will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs; what is your prediction as to which current control scheme will eventually have the majority of the market?
Here's someone showing a BLI PRR J1
http://www.nicholassmithtrains.com/store/product/30223/BRO-PRR-J1-2-10-4-%236418/
MisterBeasleyDCC is so firmly entrenched in these scales that DCS hasn't been able to break in at all. The economics say that MTH will forever be a niche player unless their decoders are fully DCC compliant, and at that point, they might as well be DCC decoders.
I am not bashing DCC in any way, just pointing out what I hear from shop owners I know, and what I see amoung the moders I know.
My point here is that MTH needs more than DCC compatiblity, they need true DC compatiblity as well.
Almost every other manufacturer, by one means or another, caters equally to DCC and DC operators.
Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, Proto, and others offer DC and DCC/sound versions. The DC versions cater to both the DC operator and the DCC operator who prefers his own decoder installation or does not want sound. It is a great way to satisfy the whole market.
Bachmann offers DCC only or DCC/sound versions, but the DCC only versions are so low priced and come with DC jumpers, such that the DC market is happy. Bachmann too satisfies the whole market since those who want a more advanced DCC install can take the less expensive versions and upgrade them without feeling they paid much for the parts they remove.
BLI/PCM, thinks sound is everything, like MTH, they are wrong. But even they have offered their stealth and blueline products. If they continue to "chase" MTH, by only offereing advanced, expensive DCC/Sound models with smoke and other features most don't want and won't pay for, they too will find them selves in a shrinking market.
Even with FULL DCC compatiblity, MTH will be turning his nose up at more than half the market.
So, until they come without decoders, or with removable ones that do not effect the price greatly, and until they run on 12 vols DC not 18-24 volts DC, I and many others will spend our money elsewhere.
AND, before you retort about dual mode decoders and DC, take it from me, none of those dual mode decoders, especially sound equiped ones, run worth a darn on DC.
Many in fact will not work at all on the DC system I use. My trains run on the pulse width modulated output of the Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttle. Dual mode decoders and the Train Engineer don't get along, and dual mode decoders don't like my signal system and detectors either.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Don't bet on it.
Don't bet on it.
A few years ago, who would have predicted that MTH would put DCC compatability into their DCS decoders? They are at that point now. I think it's only a matter of time before MTH engines come with decoders which meet the DCC standards. MTH might still say they're DCS decoders, but if they quack like a duck, well, they're a duck.
Normally, I think companies make a big mistake by listening too closely to MBAs who know business but don't have any particular expertise in the products or the customers. In this case, though, I suspect that the B-school suits are going to win out. MTH wants to enter the HO market, where most of the model train money is. They may be looking to N-scale for the future, too. However, DCC is so firmly entrenched in these scales that DCS hasn't been able to break in at all. The economics say that MTH will forever be a niche player unless their decoders are fully DCC compliant, and at that point, they might as well be DCC decoders.
If HO scale people were buying DCS systems, then MTH could keep up their present marketing strategy. But, I don't think that's happening to any significant extent. They'll give it another year, maybe more, but sooner or later they'll see the light and switch to Plan B.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasleySome day, MTH will see the light and sell their engines with true DCC decoders. They may be stubborn as mules about DCS, but they're not stupid.
rjake4454 I actually sold my MTH K4 tonight due to the DCS issue, I will never buy DCS, so the only MTH engine I will be keeping is the Class J because its such a beauty and the Broadways are extremely rare now, I can't find the ones I'm looking for anywhere. These things are hard to program without DCS, and DCS will never catch on in the HO world. I lost a lot of money selling it, but it was worth the learning experience. Unless they come out with something like rare and crazy like the Q1 or the S1, I won't be buying anymore engines from them.
I actually sold my MTH K4 tonight due to the DCS issue, I will never buy DCS, so the only MTH engine I will be keeping is the Class J because its such a beauty and the Broadways are extremely rare now, I can't find the ones I'm looking for anywhere. These things are hard to program without DCS, and DCS will never catch on in the HO world.
I lost a lot of money selling it, but it was worth the learning experience. Unless they come out with something like rare and crazy like the Q1 or the S1, I won't be buying anymore engines from them.
I don't know how anybody else feels about this type of announcement/revelation/admission, but I think it takes a strong character to publicly admit that the poster has made an error, and has turned away from what he had formerly taken as the truth. Jake, for what it's worth, I hope you at least had some excited anticipation, and at least some early fun with those other engines. If you found an impediment to that enjoyment over time, you wouldn't be the first modeller to learn something of that nature. I can't name one person posting here who could claim to have made every perfect and lasting choice.
If you peruse eBay, you are sure to find the odd BLI J Class. I know how hard it is, I was looking to replace my Spectrum dud last summer, and finally was alerted to a guy on eBay who also sold outside of that enterprise, and he had three or four DC versions. I learned this by posting on the BLI forums and a modeller in Australia shared his source with me. I can't recall now who it was, but if I find the paperwork I'll let you know.
Welcome back to the simple life in DCC.
-Crandell
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain to the OP - nice work, thanks for sharing the info.
I agree. Although I have no MTH engines, and these diesel behemoths would never have run in my era, I can certainly appreciate the fine job on documenting this upgrade.
Some day, MTH will see the light and sell their engines with true DCC decoders. They may be stubborn as mules about DCS, but they're not stupid.
Wow, what a turn around!
Again to the OP - nice work, thanks for sharing the info.
Paul3The MTH upgrade is a software upgrade, not hardware. However, you need to have an HO DCS system in order to make the upgrade.Paul A. Cutler III
The MTH upgrade is a software upgrade, not hardware. However, you need to have an HO DCS system in order to make the upgrade.Paul A. Cutler III
My local hobbyshop has the DCS system, I'll borrow it if that happens, if I ever buy an MTH engine.
Someone else doing the "Joe"?
There is an online DCC dealer in a couple Yahoo DCC Groups who says he has been smiling on the way to the bank because of the DCS to DCC conversions he does.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I don't have a camera with movie capable, but I should be able to borrow my Daughters point and shoot that has it. . Won't see her for a couple of more days.
Just finished installing the Kadee #5's and doing some basic programming. Time to play some
Hamltnblue*snip*Also the railings are metal with plastic poles. You have to remove the metal rail from the poles and the cab before lifting the shell. They are very hearty and forgiving.*snip*
That might be the only new thing MTH has done right with their engines, sturdy handrails...
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Hamltnblue Here's the actual ditch light board. Since MTH uses a negative common (Tsunami uses Positive common), I had to use an exacto to separate the led common's and run an additional wire so that I could have flashing ditch lights. Also note that I used 1k resistors with the led's. I don't know what the range is but so far these seem to work just fine.
Here's the actual ditch light board. Since MTH uses a negative common (Tsunami uses Positive common), I had to use an exacto to separate the led common's and run an additional wire so that I could have flashing ditch lights. Also note that I used 1k resistors with the led's. I don't know what the range is but so far these seem to work just fine.
Wow, glad to see they use top notch engineers to design their circuits - current sinks, like a DCC decoder with a common positive, allow higher current loads with less heating than a current source with a negative common - that's why EVERY DCC decoder does that,
Wires shortened and heatshrink tubing installed before closing up. The heatshrink also hides the resistors for the LED's. The value I used for the LED's was 1k ohm.
Here's a progress shot. I used tape as I went along for insulators. Wire shortening and heatshrink was used in the end. Notice the shell on top. 2 of the tabs broke while I figured out how to remove it. Turns out you have to press the tabs inward under the trucks. hard to see but I couldn't figure it out until I got the shell off. Also the railings are metal with plastic poles. You have to remove the metal rail from the poles and the cab before lifting the shell. They are very hearty and forgiving.
Close up of the Headlight/number light board.
Some more components with shell off and engine casing still in place
Some wiring identified
Thanks for the kind words. I have more pics and a few notes that I posted on another site. I'll post them here as well. As far as the upgrade, no release is available and if it's anything like the original release, it will be 6 months or more late. There's also no guarantee that they'll make it fully compatible. The upgrade cost was a hundred bucks, but it was a nice little enjoyable challenge and of course part of the hobby to me.
Tom,
We were discussing this very thing on another forum, and we all bet that you can send your loco back to mth, and they'll do the upgrade. But you'll have to pay for it!!
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
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