I have been thinking about this for quite a while now. Judging by the title of this thread, you're probably thinking about money. I am thinking about time and money.
The thing that brought this on is the fact that I will be graduating from college soon and heading out in the big world looking for a good paying job (hopefully). In the past, if I bought any MRR equipment or supplies I have always stayed in budget for the most part.
As I was growing up I witnessed some family members and other people I knew in town that were involved in hobbies and put those hobbies first in front of the spouses and children. I mean, the spouses and children usually suffered and did with out many things while the parent played with their "toys." I don't want to be that way for sure.
So one of questions is that those of you who have kids still living with you or when they lived with you, how did fiscally manage to enjoy the hobby while providing for your family. I know that you can budget so much a month, but do you have any other advice?
As far as time, how much do/did spend on your layout while your kids are/were around? Did you spend one night a week or less working on the layout? I know that the older kids get the more interests they have and the more activities they are involved takes a considerable amount of parents' time.
I know I am probably sweating the small stuff, but it does kind of have me concerned. I do have a while to think about though because I am currently single, but would love to have a family in the future.
I know this sounds personal, but any advice would greatly be appreciated. Thank you.
Will
This isn't my present situation, but rather the way it was when I was a very junior USAF enlisted type with a wife and a new baby:
Anything left over was available to pursue hobbies and other entertainment. Usually about enough to buy an Athearn BB freight car every month or so.
And now you know why I'm not nostalgic about the, "Good Old Days." They weren't
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
With the coming of my children (3 boys) the hobby took a real back seat. While I worked on a layout from time to time, as they grew older raising the boys took precedence. For over 10 years I was actively involved in Boy Scouts as a Den Leader, an assistant scoutmaster and later an Asst District Commissioner. During that time I was at meetings at least once a week and camping one weekend a month plus a week at summer camp. Add to that family vacations, outings, etc. and many years, my hobby activity was buying magazines - that was all I could afford in time and money for the hobby. But I wouldn't trade that time for anything.
Once the boys grew older and my wife returned to work I was able to spend more time and money on the hobby - I have gotten 2 layouts to the train running stage and will soon be starting a third in our new home where we will retire in a year or two. I will finally have the space and time for the "big" one - I have stockpiled most of the rolling stock and engines already.
But even now I will drop hobby activities in favor of family activities. The hobby will always be there when I get back to it.
My advice, obviously, is put your family first.
Enjoy
Paul
tomikawaTTAnd now you know why I'm not nostalgic about the, "Good Old Days." They weren't
Here here Chuck, been there, done that, agree 100%
To answer the OP, once the kids came along, everything went into boxes, no room, time, nor money to waste on such a luxury. When my oldest went to college, a spare bedroom opened up. I went and purchased a Model Railroader mag to see what I had missed in those 20 years, I was wowed. My family is first and foremost, and I never regretted leaving the hobby for that time, but now I'm glad to be back.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale
I don't have any kids but I do have a wife and you have to get a feel for what you can do. We never stay stagnant in our lives. There are times you rely on the hobby to take your mind off of things or get you thru a period. I was lucky my last 5 1/2 years in the Air Force, my wife stayed in Nebraska while I moved around, I was able to hook up with some great model railroaders and more inportantly...friends. With maintaining two households, not alot of extra cash for trains but I did waht I could, mainly learning from said freinds above. Other times we had some extra cash and the Chief Financial Officer (wife) authorized some long put off purchases. Let your significant other know that your hobby keeps you grounded but not at the expense of needs, You'll be suprised when something, usually limitied production, you want ends up in your hands.
As far as time, again, you'll find what works and it'll change from year to year as you progress thru life.
Enjoy the journey
Ricky
I'm somewhat unsure that completely ditching the hobby is really necessary.
Reason?
Maybe we were raised a bit differently. My parents had numerous interests. Throughout my childhood I was exposed to my dad's interests in electronics, trains, books, music and what all else. He worked as a male nurse in a local psychiatric center near Woodstock ON. Certainly was not a lot of $$$ flapping about where we were but----
I did learn something-----
There are ways by which following a budget can, in fact, allow for a certain amount of freeplay. My 2 kids were raised by us with a sense of self that did not involve label clothing for example. A huge expense did not show up in our monthly budget as a result. Utility bills and mortgage were always first and foremost. Our house was bought through a bank sale---good house--low $$$$. Mortgage was based on 2.5X my income--not wife and mine, nor based on a 8X rate that we see more of now. Food was next then came things like the clothing or repair bills or maintenence costs for the house.
Now. For us we put aside 8% of both our incomes into seperate bank accounts right from the get go. We do this 2X a month. She always worked from home--being a folk artist one can do this!LOL!! Me? I get paid twice a month----there goes 8% in the account.
Reason? So we did not step on each of our interests. Nor do we step on the savings---if I need something out of the account I got it. Now---having said this we also save $$$$ through what we buy for clothing and stuff---I'm always looking for deals. Remember my luck in finding train stuff? Well, guess where that comes from My mother was a hawk for the sales racks---always found things that worked. So. Another thing---all $$$ that was left over we stuffed into the bank as well----there are always things that like to go PTOOOFF!!
Both of our kids are off to college or university. Both work. Both are big savers-----
Happy Campers here
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
wholemanSo one of questions is that those of you who have kids still living with you or when they lived with you, how did fiscally manage to enjoy the hobby while providing for your family. I know that you can budget so much a month, but do you have any other advice? As far as time, how much do/did spend on your layout while your kids are/were around? Did you spend one night a week or less working on the layout? I know that the older kids get the more interests they have and the more activities they are involved takes a considerable amount of parents' time.
Newly married and serving in a branch of Uncle Sam's Frequent Relocation Service in 1975. With just the wife and I, she was supportive of my hobby - provided I stuck by the budget. Wasn't much. Biggest hurdle (both now and then) is the basic benchwork materials and initial set of tools is a budget buster unless you have access to somebody else's old stuff. I don't know an easy way over that hurdle. I busted the budget the 1st two months just for lumber (for a 4x8), files, needle nose pliers, Atlas track saw, NMRA gauge, and 2 three point track gauges.
Second point came to me from a Westcott editorial in MR. Look at the hobby in both cost per hour and cost per month. Once I looked at keeping the monthly costs in line with monthly hobby time available, it became very clear that I would have to ignore RTR completely. Cheap kits and handlaid track were the only way I could keep the cost per hour affordable. Not that I had the skills for this approach when I started. I look at some of my early workmanship, and I am horrified. But I learned the skills as I practiced - and even my handlaid track with multiple spike holes in the ties and solder blobs on the rails worked just fine.
When kids came along, I packed up my HO and took up 3 rail O. Just like my father when I was a kid, I focused almost entirely on low end and used equipment. If it had a few nicks or scratches, but could be made operational, I would fix it up and use it. Turned out, the operating accessories were often a bigger hit than the trains themselves. When the kids are fairly young, they are just as happy to push the trains by hand as operate them electrically. And hand loading open cars was a big part of their fun, too. An important thing with kids - and I partially blew this one with my kids - is to remember the trains are toys, not my personal treasures, no matter how much I paid for them. Some of the trains can and likely will get broken from active kids. How you react when that day comes is everything.
The last of the kids became teenagers, and I have sold off most of the 3 rail O as part of our "Dave Ramsey" plan. The remaining portion will be given to the kids when they settle down. Meanwhile, I've come back to HO and HOn3. Often nothing will get done for weeks (it has been 2-3 years at a few locations) because of family activities. I've deliberately kept the scope and budget small, because of the time factor. But even a budget of $20 per month over the years (actual amount depending on circumstances) amounts to a fair collection of stuff for a small layout.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Those are perfectly reasonable concerns. I'm new to MRR, but I am 10+ years happily married with a pair of 2 year old twins and have been involved in several other hobbies. So perhaps I can contribute...
wholemanSo one of questions is that those of you who have kids still living with you or when they lived with you, how did fiscally manage to enjoy the hobby while providing for your family. I know that you can budget so much a month, but do you have any other advice?
Decide what's really important to you. A lot of things that "everybody" has really aren't necessary and burn up money that could provide a lot of hobby enjoyment. We live in a modest part of town, drive the same Honda that we bought 10 years ago, watch the same little TV that we bought 8 years ago, don't go on exotic vacations, and rarely go out to eat (even before we had the kids). When you knock off those kinds of things, suddenly dropping $1000 on model railroad equipment (for me) or a racing bicycle (for my wife) doesn't seem so difficult. Obviously, the details depend on your job, your degree, living expenses in your area, etc. But the principle still holds. Hobbies are important to me, more so than keeping up with the Joneses.
With little kids it's not hard at all - you've got a couple hours a day of naptime and they usually go to sleep pretty early. Ours go down by 7PM, which leaves plenty of time for other things. As they get older, yeah... it's going to be a bit trickier with activities and such. But I think that kind of goes both ways as well. I don't buy into the philosophy that parents are responsible for 24/7 entertainment/chauffering/education of their children. I fondly remember a number of family activities from my childhood, especially father/son activities. But my parents also had no problem telling me to "go find something constructive to do" - which usually meant reading a book, not a bad thing at all. Kids need space to become independent, imaginative human beings too. Besides, MRR is a super hobby for kids once they get a little older. I'm definitely looking forward to them "helping" (in some very limited, damage-controlled fashion) in a few more years.
I know I am probably sweating the small stuff...
I don't think so. As for a family, the fact that you're concerned enough to ask about this suggests that someone will find you soon enough. I have a bunch of old friends in their mid-30's that have never gotten so far as you have. They wonder why they never meet people, but really they're still so self-absorbed that no one in their right mind would consider them as possible life partners.
It's really very simple it's called prioritizing your life. As adults it's our responsibility to get our ducks in a row so to speak and know what is important and what isn't. We put the family before anything and everything, your friends, your hobbies, your wants or your needs all take a back seat. I have friends in the car hobby who bust on me every time I see them. Hey doing anything to your car lately or did something else come up. Yeah my kids like to eat and have nice cloths and nice things like toys and computers for school and a nice house to live in and food in the refrigerator to eat. There are plenty of times including now where money is tight and I have a laundry list of things I would love to buy for my layout but all I can afford to do is a little cyber window shopping. Most of the guys I know in the hobby and especially at the club are retired and have nothing else to do. Hey more power to you fellas wish I was in that position but it ain't so. There are maybe 5 out of 45 guys who still have young kids and are still working full time so it's hard for those who aren't in our position to understand and some even feel we shouldn't be part of the club if we don't have the same level of commitment as they do but our President and senior member says hey lets see how many of those committed member are willing to crawl under bench work and do the heavy lifting.
Just listen to the little voice in your head and if it's telling you hey you need to put down the toy trains and go help your kid learn to steal second base then just listen to your little voice.
Geared Steam tomikawaTTAnd now you know why I'm not nostalgic about the, "Good Old Days." They weren't Here here Chuck, been there, done that, agree 100% To answer the OP, once the kids came along, everything went into boxes, no room, time, nor money to waste on such a luxury. When my oldest went to college, a spare bedroom opened up. I went and purchased a Model Railroader mag to see what I had missed in those 20 years, I was wowed. My family is first and foremost, and I never regretted leaving the hobby for that time, but now I'm glad to be back.
Why? I had 2 kids,a job on the railroad and still found time for the hobby.My wife had knitting as a hobby as well and later help me with my models..
There comes time when one has to have some old fashion "me" time..My wife and I found that out early in our marriage we needed "my" time...This worked quite will for 22 years before her untimely demise.
BTW.I can count on 1 hand how many arguments we had in those 22 years..Seriously,I fully believe our "me" time help drain the stress found in every day life that causes a lot of strife in marriages..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Upon retirement with a 45% cut in income, budgeting hasn't been a problem because the kids' college expenses and the home mortgage stopped at the same time.
Mark
wholemanAs I was growing up I witnessed some family members and other people I knew in town that were involved in hobbies and put those hobbies first in front of the spouses and children. I mean, the spouses and children usually suffered and did with out many things while the parent played with their "toys." I don't want to be that way for sure.
That's a choice. Those men chose their own selfish pleasure over family. Obviously the woman married the "wrong" guy, and that is true of any hobby not just trains. I always choose family first.
I don't necessarily have a budget for my trains, but I know my limits. You can bet that if your train budget is a wreck, your household finances are a wreck too.
As a 15 year old kid with no job, I must say it's rather hard. I don't have that much money, and I need to save up for my future, as well as have some money for other stuff.
A large part of my stuff comes from gifts or gift money. Every year, I'm lucky if I can get $150 total (between gifts and my own money) for train stuff. For example, this year, I probably came in at just about $150, nearly $100 of which was Christmas gifts.Next year, I'd like to get rolling on a new layout, build up my roster of locos and cars, and buy a new camera, but in reality, how much of that is really going to happen.I sortakinda have an informal summer job (which I've had for the past three summers), where I make about $50-60 a week, and that's not even every week, depending on if they need me, and if I'm around. For example, in 2008, I probably only worked 3 or 4 times). So say I work 8 nights, that's what, $240, maximum? I could easily use more than that in an entire summer, not including MRR stuff.This summer, I hope to get another job, as well as keep the one I currently have (because it's fun, and, at one night a week, won't interfere with another job).So let's say I get minimum wage, which is $7.25, at 40 hours a week (which is maximum for minors), times, say, 10 weeks. So that's $2900 for one summer. In reality, am I going to work 40 hours a week for 10 weeks? Probably not. So let's recalculate that for 20 hours a week. That makes it $1450. Add in the $250 I already make. So, in one summer, a total of $1700. So say, save 700, keep another 700 for spending for the entire year (cause I know there will be more money from other places), so that leaves $300 for train stuff, not including gifts.I mentioned a camera before. The $300 in the above example would buy me the camera I'm looking at, nothing more, nothing less. So what about train stuff? I could always spend less on other stuff and more on trains, but I can't really plan for that, since I don't know everything I'll need money for for an entire year.
Let's face it. Unfortunately, on a list of priorities, for nearly all of us, our trains would come in towards or at the bottom. The truth kills.
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
All bills and debt service first. Trains last. Especially trains.
With that in mind I generally purchase one engine per year and whatever is necessary to advance the layout that month.
I have had good luck on ebay picking items up for very little against retail.
I recall as a kid Athearn kits were a buck twenty five and thought that metal trucks and kadees expensive extravagance. Fast forward to now. I'm still a kid and am careful what I buy.
This year I am building a small logging road. I expect all rolling stock to be bought by end of Feb (About.. 20 items worth...) and track finished by March. Benchwork built by summer. For less than a thousand dollars I will be complete this year if things moving along nicely. Year two will be about scenery and maintained during operating.
My expenses this year modeling will be less than one thousand, next year even less than that. The structures will be the most expense. Everything else is already recycled from the previous layout such as the Super Chief.
Believe it or not, range time and ammunition expenses are much more than train expenses these days along with other useful things such as reducing and eliminating debt.
I have sort of gone simple. Less is more and all that stuff.
When things settle down, the pre planned O gauge two rail expansion will start at the Depot's freight doorway and work outwards onto the new bench work. Then things will get very expensive for a brief time.
wholeman So one of questions is that those of you who have kids still living with you or when they lived with you, how did fiscally manage to enjoy the hobby while providing for your family. I know that you can budget so much a month, but do you have any other advice?
Some expenses are necessary - but most (including all hobby expenses) are optional in some way.
If you have little cash, you can often spend more time on doing things in less expensive ways.
If you have patience, you can get a better deal than if you want things right now.
Remember that a good deal can be many things : you can pay less for the same item, get a better quality item for what you otherwise would have paid for a poorer quality item, or get more of something.
Sometimes it pays to buy quality items, even if up front cost is higher. At other times, it is smart to remember that "good enough now" beats "perfect never".
Above all - marry a woman that isn't just beautiful, but also is strong, intelligent, tenacious, kind, flexible and capable, who shares your core beliefs and values, have a great sense of humor, and occasionally will tell you : "I can get mad at you, but I can't stay mad at you !"
And then you make sure you treat her as you want her to treat you - be flexible, kind, supportive of the things that are important to he, patient, helpful, true to your values and above all - try to maintain a sense of humor, so you can laugh about things and then go look for ways to fix whatever goes wrong, instead of staying mad at each other.
Then the rest will take care of itself.
Grin, Stein
Well, I see everyone feels pretty much the same. Just with a slightly different twist as pertains to the available cash.
I myself, am a combo of several examples. Many and most are too, probably. I left MRR as a teen when the driver license came along and freedom and the jobs required to maintain that freedom came along, Then the wife and kids. (someone already said as young children it's easier to get time than when they get older and involved in outside activities.) All the while the only part of MRR that followed was the dream, the desire, and my old 4X8 layout propped up in the garage at my parents house and a box full of TYCO and AHM cars and locos in their basement. Did I mention an eye on a spare room in our basement that someday will be a trainroom. Financially we deal with money like Blownoutcylinder does. She has her money I have mine. Would I have had to "give up" my railroad? Like Brakie said, no. I could have found time and money to work on it. I found money and time to do other things. I just chose not to until I hade time to devote to it. (by the way my wife and I don't argue either.) Now that I find myself retired and the kids up out and gone, replaced by a Labrador Retriever named Missy, I have my empire and, did I mention the spare room? Plus some. Well worth the wait.
If you can, don't give it up, slow and steady wins the race and you're not going to have the thing built in a weekend anyway. But if you have to sacrifice anything involving family or children for it, don't. The trains will wait. Mine did and it sounds like so did many others. The kids won't. THAT's the stuff you don't want to miss out on.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
TA462I just can't wait to retire so I can have more time to do what I want to.
ROFLMAO!!!!! Oh you just wait. If you can keep it a secret you've retired and hide your car during the day so no one gets supspicious, you might have a bit more time. However if they find out, and they will, all I can say is, with all I have to do after retirement, I don't know when I had time to work before. I have to go back to work so I can have time for myself again!!!
I've learned to run after I hear the words, "Say, since you're not doing anything anymore........."
Everything for my wife and three children comes first. My hobby comes last in the list of priorities and that is just fine with me. If after paying all the bills there is a little something left over then it goes in the hobby budget, for my wife or me, depends who wants what.
As for budgeting time, I have little spare time. I have learned that that three or four hour window will never be there and so nothing gets done on the layout. I learned long ago that if I have a spare 20 or 30 minutes then I go work on the layout, 20 minutes a few times a week adds up and stuff gets done. I usually try to work on the layout later in the evening and avoid sitting in front of the tv.
My son and I belong to a club that meets twice a week, I can only get there two or three Sunday afternoons a month, (when I am not working) It is time well spent and good to be around others who enjoy the same hobby. My son is almost 16 and his interest in model trains is fading, that's ok.
I would have more of my layout done if I didn't spend time on these forums, but then this is where I learn and get inspiration so not a waste of time by any means.
BRAKIEWhy? I had 2 kids,a job on the railroad and still found time for the hobby
I explained "why" in my post, and I have many things that interest me besides MRR. My money and time were best spent with the kids, period.
tomikawaTT This isn't my present situation, but rather the way it was when I was a very junior USAF enlisted type with a wife and a new baby: Things I needed to get to work (Primarily purchase of an old clunker and maintenance expenses thereon.) Housing - found at the intersection of adequacy and expense. Food - I left this in my wife's highly capable hands. I used to refer to her as Scot-Italian Japanese because she didn't spend much and we ate a lot of spaghetti. Necessary clothing. Necessary furniture - from thrift shops. Anything left over was available to pursue hobbies and other entertainment. Usually about enough to buy an Athearn BB freight car every month or so. And now you know why I'm not nostalgic about the, "Good Old Days." They weren't Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Yep! Them thar "Good ol' days . . . . . . . . . . warn't!"
I was a two striper with two kids . . . . . can't leave the wife out, of course . . . . . and even after I made that third stripe things still ran under slow orders. I remember that that promotion did enable me to raise my train budget from three to five bucks a month. Had I been able to get rid of that nasty habit . . . . . you know what habit that was . . . . . I could probably have raised my train budget to about ten bucks a month; cigarettes were an exorbitant $1.76 a carton in the commissary.
I have related in other postings how my model railroad experience nearly permanently derailed when I tried to fit 22" radius curves onto a 4 X 8; my lone locomotive . . . . . a Varney (plastic body) F3 . . . . . derailed at table edge and came to rest precariously over the edge two hundred and fifty (scale) feet above the concrete of the garage floor. I didn't have the money to replace it and would probably have gone back to building model warships.
In 1968 when I put on that fourth stripe I entered modelferroequinology Valhalla . . . . . . . . . . at least it felt that way. It was then, with a budget of $25.00 a month, that I began putting together a fleet of die cast Cary/Mantua and Bowser lokes. Seventh Heaven!!
As soon as my wife and I get a few financial problems squared away I'm going to set a one hundred smacker a month train budget.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I want to sincerely thank everyone for your kind words of wisdom. I will take your suggestions seriously. I guess I can consider myself fortunate as I have accumulated over 100 pieces of rolling stock, about 8 locos, and a DCC system.
Again thank you.
From where I sit MRing is just a Microcosom of real life. Peoples lives change throughout there life. Sometimes its slow change and than other times it's all you can do to remember to put your pants on in the morning (ie. the small children years). But if there is one thing that the MR hobbie has done very well in the past,even better in the recent years is to keep an open mind and realize that change is not always a bad thing. Internet, books and mags, videos and dvds, clubs, shows and conventions have always enabled those of use who love the hobby to find the reasources to follow our hobby in the best way that each of us can. It's my guess that in time you'll find your best way to enjoy MRing, and I will be willing to bet that as your life goes through it's changes your MRing will change right along with it and you won't even realize it's happening. So as you said don't sweat it, enjoy MRing as little or as much as your life permits. Weather it's a stack of Model Railroading Magazines under your bed or that 50 by 100 foot Model railroading empire. "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TRAINS MAN"
Don