Steve75hi all I know that every one is saying alot about my vision and if it isnt good HO would be best so I just thought you all should know that I have 20/25 vision at my last test. Anyway I have to go for now the kids want me. Steve
hi all
I know that every one is saying alot about my vision and if it isnt good HO would be best so I just thought you all should know that I have 20/25 vision at my last test. Anyway I have to go for now the kids want me.
Steve
20/25 vision isn't that bad..
I have a treated glaucoma spot in my left eye and a mild cataract in my right. Sometimes I rely on that little contraption with the magnifying glass and the holding clips for the most detailed work. I still do fine in N scale.
Hi all
I have just had a PM from Stine about what I want in my model railroad so I will be having a long hard think about what I really want and as soon as I know I will let you all know.
Thank you for your help
I see you decided on N - I think that's a great choice for your limited space and desire for a longer mainline run.
One thing I see over and over in the replies you've gotten is (paraphrasing) "Research! Read! Think long and hard about what you want! Make sure you have it all exactly right before you buy anything or lay the first piece of track! BE AFRAID OF DOING SOMETHING WRONG!"
I couldn't disagree more. Depending on personality, this is very suited to some people. But many people are much more inspired by running trains than by planning. The big railroads you see in magazines, whether club- or individual-owned, always seem to have undergone changes. Don't be afraid to just do something, you can always change it when you think of something you'd rather have. And no matter how carefully you think about and decide what you want, you will almost certainly be wrong, either from misunderstanding yourself or from your interests changing with time.
My advice is, if you're more of a hands-on person, just pick an interesting plan that suits your space/time/budget/scale, and start building. Get trains running, get to work on scenery, and have some fun. You can learn about both yourself and the hobby as you go. When you find yourself thinking, "I wish..." - don't be afraid to make the changes to make it so. When something doesn't work or you can't figure it out, ask specific questions about getting from what you have to what you want.
The only points where advance decision-making is important is where a lot of expense will be wasted if you change your mind. I don't count time as an expense for this: I enjoy the time I spend on it, so getting to spend more time on it isn't a liability.
hi Steve,
this layout was developped for Seanthehack in another thread by Steinjr and me. I thought you wanted something like the double tracked LA & SL, built by Dick Christianson for MR-magazine.
The Madison design was imho not yet ready for the build. In N-scale your 4x8 has a lot more space then this small 5x2.7 design.
There still are a couple of issues worth a second look; the scenic deviders, the trainlength, beyond the layout operation and operation with two trains at the same time.
As you can see trainlength on the passingsidings is very limited. By use of curved switches (at point E and F) the passing sidings can probably be lenghened. The extra width needed for the curved turnout at point E is not available. Lengthening Cinder around the corner in the direction of Bottoms would also mean a even much shorter yard-lead for the Bottoms switcher. So the engineer in Bottoms and the other in Cinder will be in each others way often.
Operationally your train starts on the cassette, passes through Cinder and goes on to Bottoms. The tracks disappear under a roadbridge where our RR makes a virtual connection with a line to Albany. In reality it is the lap-connection. So our little railroad functions as a bridge route, quite different then just a bit of laprunning. Bottoms and the Cassette are supposed to be miles apart so a scenic devider (AB) was mandatory. A double sided backdrop can be done, but derailments occurs on hard to reach spots. The lapconnection was perfectly hidden; I choose for a more subtle devider: a road, lined with houses and trees; but to be effective your layout should be build shoulder and not waist-high. For the same reason I didn't block the view from Cinder to the lap-connection by a double-sided-backdrop (BC). The view is blocked by trees and by the warehouse along the track at the lower right corner. With a double sided backdrop (BC) I would have modeled this track as another interchange.
If you want to learn more about beyond-the-layout-operating on this pike you just have to ask.
In your 4x8 space a better balance can be found between trainlength, radii and the size of Bottoms Yard. Even using the space in the centre of the layout becomes possible.
BTW Steinjr has made a different design for a 5x9 layout in HO-scale recently, with much more tracks, that could adapted to a 4x8 space easily in N-scale. Are you really sure you want to go for this small short branch (single track) approach? And since you like to run steamers do you want a small engine service area with a turntable for those small steamers?
BTW you do not need to ask permission, no copy rights involved.
Paul
Steve, Do not be afraid to go with 'N' scale. I have been in 'N' scale since 1991. There has been much improvement in equipment. 'N' scale offers the opportunity to have more scenery to track ratio than 'HO'. You can take the same track plan that was submitted to you and have a more ' spacious' feeling. If this is your first layout, I suggest that you use the Kato track system. I have used this track for more than 8 years and I have been very pleased with the results. I also have used Atlas flex track with the Kato track and have been able to blend the two together very well. Check out the January 2010 issue of Model Railroader. They have a project railroad in 'N'scale that uses the Kato track system. Stick with Kato and Atlas engines. They work well right out of the box. I use the Digitrax DCC system. They seem to offer a wide range of decoders for 'N' scale. Also MRC's DCC system offers decoders with sound. You can use MRC decoders on Digitrax's system or other DCC systems .
Because of the small contact area of engines wheels to the track, if the track gets dirty, the 'N' scale engines stall easier than the larger scales engines. Just keep the track clean and you will be happy with 'N'scale. The other disadvantage to 'N'scale is if your eye sight is not good. This could be a problem when working on the engines.
But, if you think 'N'scale is not for you, then definitely go with 'HO'.
If you have any more questions about 'N' scale, please feel free to ask me. I will try to help you as much as I can
Have fun!
Randy "madmodeler"
I would just like to wish every one a happy new year! and all the best for 2010
Steve, I struggled over that decision too when I decided to get back into model railroading. I decided to go with N scale because I wanted a modular layout and planned on using 8' long tables, so I have an L shape with turn arounds at each end. I thought N scale would be a challenge for me even though it seemed less popular. I had no small children to concern myself with. Now that I am deep into working on my layout, sometimes I wished I had went to HO. Mostly because the selection for HO is so much larger. I go to all the local shows, some of them pretty big in Florida, and the availablity of N scale stuff is about 20% of the vendors. However, sometimes you can get some great deals since they are willing to let N scale stuff go for less. If your space is as limited as you mention, then N may be a good way to go. Have fun no matter what you do.
Hi Steve, First good luck and have fun. I see by the replies you have a lot of advise. Read, review, and plan first. As to N or HO, I found it interesting that some changed from N to HO because of age. I started with HO in my thirtys and changed to N in my late 50s because of space. I also found that unless you planted and can't move HO would be fine. Having moved several times, dis manteling and restarting N is better. Now at 74 I am one month into a new (very large) N scale layout. Modules 3x5 (Thank you "N-Track) Room 15x35.
All that said, it your layout do what you like. look for Clubs in you area for ideals and help. Srngeorge
first I am sorry I didn't get back to any one, but we lost Internet connection for the day yesterday (12-30-09). The track plan that Paul posted look ideal for me and I would like to do it. As for the table hight I would not be looking down on it too much because for my hight as I am only 5'3" so if I want a track view I could sit on a chair don't you think (lol) but now I have added the wheels the table hight is 3' 2" and when I add the foam which is another 2" it will be 3' 4" (I haven't got the foam yet but I am thinking about it so I can do rivers and roads running under the track etc.. if you know what I mean).
Stine I am sorry the description of the room didn't help that much but like I said I don't know how to post images on here so I can't take any pictures or do any drawing's and post them.
Anyhow I would like to do the layout on the 1930's steam era and it doesn't have to be a particular location because I think after what has been said that might be a bit to advanced for me I could do something like that in a few years when I have a better understanding of the hobby and maybe more room. I am going to order the book on N Scale Railroading Getting started in the hobby when I get payed. So Paul if you would let me do the second layout that you posted on 12-30-09 I would be grateful.
steve....have you reconsidered going around the walls? i realize your wife said no, and i understand that, but you might be able to mount it high enough to be out of the way. mine is 52 inches high on 18 inch shelves and that leaves lots of room in that room. also, if you mount those shelves on brackets, that also leaves room underneath for whatever and.......you can run a much longer train. make the duckunder removable if necessary. mine is 12x10x12x10 and 40 cars, n scale, is a long train. my HO trains when i was trying them, seemed like around 16 cars or so was decent....just a thought....
Yup, I often think it's best to suggest suitable book titles, particularly for beginners. This strategy has the added advantage of answering questions I fellow wouldn't think of asking.
Mark
Hi Stein,
I am glad you are back. I figured that something must have been going on with you. Yup - I totally agree, the OP should do some reading, if only to ask the right kind of questions... In any case, it´s 20 bucks well spent...
A very Happy New Year to you and your family!
Paulus Jas Posting a drawing of your room would be better. Anyhow you just want a 4 x 8. The LA&SL, despite its pretty look, is not the best home-layout. At least I would add some staging. The track at the upper right could be an interchange. An older N -scale design for a 5 x 2.7 space only, which I like even more. Made with bigger radii in a 4x8 space would be great. Paul
Posting a drawing of your room would be better. Anyhow you just want a 4 x 8. The LA&SL, despite its pretty look, is not the best home-layout. At least I would add some staging. The track at the upper right could be an interchange.
An older N -scale design for a 5 x 2.7 space only, which I like even more. Made with bigger radii in a 4x8 space would be great.
Looks good. Now if Steve just could add longer legs to his table, so he gets it up from 3 feet (36") off the ground to 50" off the ground or so, so he is looking in on his scenes instead of down at them, he has something that might work okay for him.
Especially if he in addition follows the advice he got from Byron as early as page 3 of this thread.
cuyama If you decide to start with a layout, I think the Kalmbach how-to books are often a better choice -- although sometimes I am frustrated by the limited track plans they feature. Marty McGuirck's new book is a step-by-step guide to building, wiring, and scenicking an N scale 4X8: N Scale Railroading: Getting Started in the Hobby, Second Edition I haven't picked up a copy yet,but the cover art depicts a nicely-detailed model railroad. Similar HO scale oriented titles include:Basic Model Railroading: Getting Started in the HobbyHO Railroad from Start to Finish These books, in my opinion, are probably better than trying to piece together a layout from advice gleaned from online forums. There are too many divergent opinions, only a few of which actually make sense for a beginner, so it can be difficult to winnow the wheat from the chaff.
If you decide to start with a layout, I think the Kalmbach how-to books are often a better choice -- although sometimes I am frustrated by the limited track plans they feature.
Marty McGuirck's new book is a step-by-step guide to building, wiring, and scenicking an N scale 4X8: N Scale Railroading: Getting Started in the Hobby, Second Edition I haven't picked up a copy yet,but the cover art depicts a nicely-detailed model railroad.
Similar HO scale oriented titles include:Basic Model Railroading: Getting Started in the HobbyHO Railroad from Start to Finish
These books, in my opinion, are probably better than trying to piece together a layout from advice gleaned from online forums. There are too many divergent opinions, only a few of which actually make sense for a beginner, so it can be difficult to winnow the wheat from the chaff.
Getting a book like that will help him learn about how to lay track, how to wire his layout and those things - the things which seemingly has served as distractions for him, so he has not been able to focus on what he wants to model - his goal.
If nothing else, the book above has a lot more pictures than Tolstoy's "War and Peace", and a reasonably coherent theme :-)
Grin, Stein
Not so bad a plan, Paul.
Sometimes, we should remember, where we all came from... The pros and semi-pros among us all know, that the 4 by 8 is not the best in terms of space and that any type of oval offers only limited operation for the aficionados. But it is my feeling, that we sometimes overwhelm the newbies in this forum with all the knowledge we have in building and operating layouts and that sometimes the good advice we give is an inch too much.
After all, most of us got started into the hobby with that 4 by 8. And we had to learn, also not to try to shorten someone´s learning curve...
DrilinesteinjrYou are responding to only a very few of the questions or comments you are getting, and you seem to take days to provide those partial answers or responses. Or maybe it's the fact that your response's are the length of "War and Peace".
steinjrYou are responding to only a very few of the questions or comments you are getting, and you seem to take days to provide those partial answers or responses.
Or maybe it's the fact that your response's are the length of "War and Peace".
Steve75Yes that was the layout I was on about. I would like to have at least 2 trains running at one time where they could pass each other ether, in the same direction or in opposite directions
I would like it also if there was room where I could do the scenery where you go from a small industrial park to the countryside and back but keep it in a loop if that is possible?
Steve75 Hope this helps
Quite a bit. But sadly, not quite enough to make me continue to spend time on trying to communicate with you.
You are responding to only a very few of the questions or comments you are getting, and you seem to take days to provide those partial answers or responses.
You can't get a functional and effective dialogue going this way. Or at least - I can't get a functional, effective and fun dialogue going that way.
So I am bowing out of this thread.
But I wish you the best of luck with your layout! I really hope that someone else will help you find a simple track plan that you have a fair chance of building, that your layout will turn out well, and that you will have a lot of fun with it.
Merry Christmas!
Stein
Hi
Ok about the room I have. It is 13' X 10'. 13' long and 10' wide with a window on the north wall which is 4' from the floor. The entrance door is on the south wall and opens into the room and is about 6" from the east wall, the door is 4' wide (including the door casing) also on the south wall is a closet with sliding doors which folds into the room which take up 2 feet. the closet is 5 feet wide and comes into the room 2 feet so on the west wall the room will only be 8 feet long when the closet is closed. We have a book case on the east wall which is 4 feet wide and 1 1/2 feet deep and 3 1/2 feet high. Their are electrical outlets on the west wall 1 foot from the north wall and 1 foot from the floor, on the north wall there are 2 electrical outlets in both corners 1 foot of the floor and 2 feet from each corner. on the east wall there i only 1 outlet 3 feet from the north wall and 1 foot of the floor. I have already built the table which I put wheels on so I can move it out and get to all side's the table stands 3 feet high and is 4 feet wide and 8 feet long.
About track plans I also liked the salt lake route that was in Model Railroader and would have liked to do it but I only had the 4 X 8 table and my wife won't let me add onto it and I don't know how to modify it to fit the 4 X 8 table so some thing close to that would be perfect for me.
Hope this helps
Steve75 I would like to have at least 2 trains running at one time where they could pass each other ether, in the same direction or in opposite directions.
I would like to have at least 2 trains running at one time where they could pass each other ether, in the same direction or in opposite directions.
Two trains both running at the same time, or having the possibility of having two trains on the layout, and running them one by one ?
Let me repeat my link one more time: http://www.layoutvision.com/id49.html
Click on link, read. It is a pretty decent track plan for a two scene (front and rear) 4x8 layout in H0 scale. In N scale you either have a lot more space (which means longer trains and longer spurs and bigger buildings), or you can build the whole layouit quite a bit smaller.
No problem to go to 75% of table dimentions (ie 3 x 6 feet) or 62% of table dimensions (ie 30" x 5 feet) when going from a H0 4x8 foot layout to N scale - you are still a little ahead of the 4x8 H0 scale layout, since N scale is 56% of H0 scale.
There is also a very nice moveable N scale table layout in the current issue of Model Railroad Magazine. Industrial on one side, countryside on the other side.
That is very much doable. Keep coming up with your design goals .- what do you want in your layout ? What kind of trains do you want to run ? Check my previous posts for the list of questions from Byron Henderson.
Smile, Stein
Steve75The room dimension's are 13' X 10' which we also use for storage as well. Also my wife will not let me fix it to the wall's. So I have put the table on wheel's so I can move it out and get to all sides.
It is not totally clear from your words whether you already have built your table and tested access or not.
You have already built your table ? Can you push it in by the wall, and have enough space to access everything else in there ? Can you pull it out from the wall and move around it on at least three sides, even with all your storage items in there ?
You say "We also use for storage as well". What does that mean ? Do you have storage shelves in there ? Cupboards ? Piles of boxes on the floor ? How much space do that stuff take ? Where is it ?
Try to describe the room and your situation with words, if making a diagram and posting it is too hard.
Room is 13 x 10 feet. Okay - let's call the walls north (up), east (right), south (down) and west (left).
Where is the door into the room, what wall, how many inches from which corner, how many inches wide is the door ? Does the door open into the room or out from the room ?
Are there more than one door (e.g. doors to cupboards or built in closets or porch doors or whatever) ?
Is there any windows, electrical boxes or anything like that which you need to preserve access to ? If so, where are they (on what walls, how far from which corner, how wide, how high) ?
Next step is to describe your modeling goals - what you would like to have on your layout, and what you feel you must have if you are going to build a layout at all.
What is it about N13 that appeals to you?
Next time, try to use a few more words to describe how things look, what you want to accomplish and why you want things that way. I need to understand your goals to be able to suggest some possible ways to get there.
An example : you are planning a table layout that is 4 x 8 feet. Okay - why is it not e.g. 30" x 80" instead - the size of a hollow core door you can buy cheaply at e.g. Home Depot. 30" is wide enough for a 13" radius curve at the ends, but still no wider than you can reach across it from one side (at least if the layout is not located too high up on the wall) instead of needing access from both sides ?
Saving 18" of width actually ends up saving you 40" of depth, since you don't need an access aisle on the back side of the layout. At the cost of not having two scenes - one on each side of a viewblock divider down the middle of the table.
How about building a layout that is dogbone shaped along one wall or around a corner ? The center of the layout can be narrow, while the ends widen out to allow engines to turn around. A shape not unlike e.g. this one:
How about having a layout where trains do not run in a circle, but where they go point to point. Start from somewhere, go out to somewhere else, and then stop and head back. Real railroads doesn't run in circles - they go back and forth.
You can model railroading in your home town that way pretty easy. Here is e.g. a plan for railroading around a paper plant in New England based on that principle:
The plan above has a main part that is 2 x 10 feet in H0 scale - that would need about 14" x 6 feet in N scale. The detachable cross piece is 1 foot wide (for most of the way, 2 feet wide at the top) and six feet long in H0 scale - would be about 7" wide and 3 1/2 foot long in N scale.
There are lots of ways to fit a layout into a room. But one needs to have an idea of what your design goals are - is e.g. being able to just let trains run and run in a loop an important design goal for you ?
Is it important to you to have more than one train running ? At the same time ? Or just having the option of parking one train on the layout and run another ?
I would suggest you forget about the wiring for a moment - you first need to find out how much room you really have. Then you need to find out what you want to be able to do with your trains on your layout. Then you figure out how to build it.
Available space and goal first, then designing track plan, then figure out how to build benchwork, lay track, wire track and build scenery later.
HI
Yes that was the layout I was on about. I would like to have at least 2 trains running at one time where they could pass each other ether, in the same direction or in opposite directions. But like I said I don't know how to do the wiring for that. If some one could help that would be great or if anyone knows of a better plan where I could do that that would be great too. I would like it also if there was room where I could do the scenery where you go from a small industrial park to the countryside and back but keep it in a loop if that is possible?
Thank you for your time
Steve75As for the track plans I am sorry that I did not get back to any one about them. I would like to know how I could improve on the N-12 layout from Atlas
and if their is an easer way to do the wiring for it because I don't understand it.
First let me say that I ma sorry if I have been vague. I have tried to do a plan of the room I have but I don't know how to post it. The room dimension's are 13' X 10' which we also use for storage as well. Also my wife will not let me fix it to the wall's. So I have put the table on wheel's so I can move it out and get to all sides. As for the track plans I am sorry that I did not get back to any one about them. I would like to know how I could improve on the N-12 layout from Atlas and if their is an easer way to do the wiring for it because I don't understand it. So I am asking how do I post Images? and how could I improve on the N-12 layout? also how can a dummie like me do the wiring?
Thank you
hi Steve
I am not as polite as Stein; I will tell you my feelings.
Your input is very modest. Some of the best men in modelrailroading like Stein and Cuyama are offering help and you don't respond at all.
It can be quite difficult to respond to postings when at the same time some old hats (me) seem to make war about the quality of trackplans that were brought in (sorry Wolfgang). Anyhow what was missing is the next step.
I showed you a posting by Byron Henderson about a 4x8 not being your best roommate. You did not respond at all.
You told us you were not very succesful with RTS. I told you not to end the story, but to tell us were you get struck, so we could help you out. No reaction by you. I get struck many times, every time I posted my question, someone gave the appropriate answer; we all have to learn and are still learning.
Not your fault, but Byron told you he found your Atlas plan a waste of space or a bad choice. You could have asked him to be more specific. My feeling was the plan could be reworked into something quite pretty; problem is the debate ended before it even started.
There are people around willing to help you to get your plans and your space on this forum. There are people willing to help you to have a good look at the footprint of your empire. There are people willing to help you research your own area. And there are even men wanting to help you finding weak and good spots in existing or new designs. (I could give you some hints, but first things first)
It is up to you to keep their attention. BTW usually you can find out easily who are giving proper advice and who are not. If someone explains why, you can value his reasoning. If someone is only expressing his feelings you can't.
Byron Henderson(Cuyama) is a very well known professional modelrailroad designer; his work can be seen in all kinds of publications. I've never seen a bad advice by Steinjr and he always takes his time to explain the reasoning behind his idea's.
So I would take the bait. What can you loose if people like the above are willing to help you out with your project. What can you loose by starting with the footprint of your future layout and going though the questionaire of Byron Henderson(Cuyama); and ask if you do not understand for the full 100% what he is saying (we all forget how much railroad-slang we are using).
Don't shy away, most things are looking far more complicated then they really are. You just need some help from time to time. (Good books are often the best starting point; they show you the overall concept)
Have fun, keep smiling and take the next steps
Guys --
N scale vs H0 scale is a no-brainer in this case. Or at least - it would have been a no-brainer if the original poster had formulated his question clearly. Taking into account his previous thread, a month back, where he announced that he had started building an N scale layout on a 4x8 foot table, the question becomes "I am already building an N scale layout on a 4x8 foot table. If I keep the same size table, what will give me the longest run - staying with small trains or swapping them out for bigger trains" ?
The very obvious answer is "stay with N scale if you want to have the longest possible run". One loop around a 4x8 table is about 20 feet of mainline length. If your train consists of a medium sized engine and ten 40-foot cars, your train will be about 3 feet long in N scale, about 5.5 feet long in H0 scale. Or put another way: in N scale, one loop around the table is a little under 7 train lengths, while in H0 scale one loop around the table is a little under 4 train lengths.
As I said - that one is a nobrainer.
Now - I am not going to waste (much :-) time pointing out again that a 4x8 foot table in the middle of the floor may not be the smartest use of space in your home. Unless of course the space you have available in your home is a 8x10 or 8 x12 foot open space in the middle of a bigger room, and you cannot make your wife or parents or whatever accept that you put stuff along the walls instead.
That has been pointed out before, and Steve has not reacted in any way to that information. With no feedback from Steve about what kind of room space he has and why his layout has to be exactly 4x8 feet, we have no idea about what other form factors could be used to quite possibly give him a longer run in N scale. We also do not know if he could do one scene down along one side of the table, a central divider and a second scene down the other side of the table, viewed and accessed from the other side of the table.
Obvious, but probably not considered by Steve - there is not much point in having a 4 foot wide layout if he cannot easily access the stuff along the rear side. You obviously could have a layout on wheels and pull it out when you need to work on the landscape in the back, but wrestling a layout back and forth as you are running your trains is not a realistic option.
Getting a clear answer as to what his room look like is a far more important issue for his track plan design than discussing whether N scale is half of H0 scale, or 56% of H0 scale, which is the true answer, found by using elementary school math (87.1 / 160).
Next issue : how do a beginner come up with a track plan?
We all know that it (probably) takes more skills and more Model Railroading/Railroading background to come up with your own track plan based on/heavily inspired by one or more real locations than it takes to simply copy an already existing track plan.
We also all know that copying someone else's plan can provide an excellent layout or it can provide a layout that will give you no ends of problems. It depends on whose plan you are copying and why.
We can direct a beginner to some not too complex track plan we like ourselves - say something like the Red Wing layout from Model Railroader way back, here in a variety by layout designer Byron Henderson: http://www.layoutvision.com/id49.html
Take that H0 scale plan, reduce it to 75% of size (ie 3 x 6 feet - or possibly keep it at 4x8, if the room it will be in can support it), and away you go. Gives you two scenes that can be scenicked totally differently, some yard work, staging/interchange, space to have two fairly long trains meet, experience with various kinds of track work, runaround moves, and so on and so forth.
Is a fairly simple 4x8, but also applies more modern layout design principles than running figure-8 over/under on a low table, viewed from the helicopter pilot perspective.
Or we can try to get him to work through a list of questions about what he really wants to model, and see if we can come up with a track plan for him that fits his room and his design goals.
An example of the types of questions one should ask someone planning to design their own layout can be found here: http://www.layoutvision.com/id13.html
No matter what way you go otherwise, Steve, I strongly encourage you to describe the room you will have your layout in, and describe your goals for your layout.
Steve75I have cosen to go with N scale, and I have just orderd 101 Track Plans for model railroaders from my local hobby shop. So I hope that will help, thank you all for your advice and help it means a lot to me that you all are willing to help someone that doesn't know what they are doing. I only wish that their was a local club near me which I could join. any way thank you again. Steve
I have cosen to go with N scale, and I have just orderd 101 Track Plans for model railroaders from my local hobby shop. So I hope that will help, thank you all for your advice and help it means a lot to me that you all are willing to help someone that doesn't know what they are doing. I only wish that their was a local club near me which I could join. any way thank you again.
Good for you. I've had extensive layout's in both scales and like them equally. I don't think its really fair to pick one over the other. They each have their pro's and cons. My first complete N scale layout was the "Monopoly and Octopus" by Atlas. I've since converted to HO, but again thats just a personal choice. If I had the time and space, I'd have both scales if I could.
http://www.trainsetsonly.com/page/TSO/PROD/150-N14