I was a member of NMRA for a whole bunch of years, and decided not to renew. Partly for cost issues but mostly because I didn't see any particular value. I thought supporting the Conformance and Standards group was a good thing, and supporting the local Division Clinics was good. But it costs either $50 or $60 each year, and I didn't think it was worth it.
I have attended the local Division clinics for years but we were told at the last meeting that NMRA's insurance company was insisting that only members should be allowed to attend. That was something of a shock! It looks like you get up to three times to attend before you have to join or leave! Holycow, what a way to increase membership - duress!
That approach seems to fly in the face of the expressed goal to get more people into the hobby. It looks like the stagnant-to-falling membership level has forced someone to strive for membership whatever way possible.
To me, the best way out of this dilemma is to find another insurance company!
Whether or not membership is worth it, is a personal decision. But if you are participating in the programs then IMHO you really should be a member. I have been a member since 1972 and plan to continue, although the dues are getting a little high.
Enjoy
Paul
NMRA member #24602
I've been a member since 2007 and enjoy "Scale Rails" and refer to the "Standards and Practices" disc from NMRA that was sent upon joining. However, I have never been contacted by anyone affiliated with the organization, neither by the national nor the regional groups. Soooo, getting twelve issues of the magazine for a year's dues is getting a little steep for me. I suppose that it's pretty much on me to introduce myself to the regional people, but, they meet at nearly a two hour drive from my residence. I'm seriiously considering not renewing my membership. Gerry S. # 140669
MRRSparky I was a member of NMRA for a whole bunch of years, and decided not to renew. Partly for cost issues but mostly because I didn't see any particular value. I thought supporting the Conformance and Standards group was a good thing, and supporting the local Division Clinics was good. But it costs either $50 or $60 each year, and I didn't think it was worth it. I have attended the local Division clinics for years but we were told at the last meeting that NMRA's insurance company was insisting that only members should be allowed to attend. That was something of a shock! It looks like you get up to three times to attend before you have to join or leave! Holycow, what a way to increase membership - duress! That approach seems to fly in the face of the expressed goal to get more people into the hobby. It looks like the stagnant-to-falling membership level has forced someone to strive for membership whatever way possible. To me, the best way out of this dilemma is to find another insurance company!
I guess I'm a little confused. Seems to me that if enough folks decide that they don't want to support the NMRA because they don't see any particular value, then the NMRA and all the divisions will eventually go away. When the divisions go away, then there won't be any clinics for the people who didn't want to provide support to attend.
So the solution is for the NMRA to find another insurance company that will not object to non-NMRA supporting people to attend an NMRA function.
Since I'm not an NMRA member, obviously I'm missing something here.
I was a member of the NMRA for 2 years but I let my membership lapse because the letters to the editor had taken on a decidedly picky and rather nasty tone. I can't remember the specifics but I do remember asking myself why the heck I was spending money to listen to what apparently were old farts pass wind at each other over seemingly infintestimal details. If that has changed please post here and I might reenlist. Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I have no chance to go to any NMRA meeting. But I'm a member since some years. I think the NMRA does a great job with the RPs. And the Achievement Program is very good. You can learn many things. They do a lot for the hobby and membership is one way to pay back. As long as I can afford it.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
I've been a member since 1980.
Now, I think that attending Division meetings without being a member is taking advantage of the NMRA. You are complaining that you cannot attend after you dropped your membership? You want your cake and eat it too!
I have attended many, many division meets and although I am not as active as I once was, I still attend one or two a year. Yes, the price is going up but what isn't? The AP and the Standards and RPs alone are worth the price, not to speak of Scale Rails. NMRA membership is not for everyone, but it is certainly for many of us.
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =
MRRSparkyI have attended the local Division clinics for years but we were told at the last meeting that NMRA's insurance company was insisting that only members should be allowed to attend. That was something of a shock! It looks like you get up to three times to attend before you have to join or leave!
Is this just clinics? Or, does it also pertain to monthly meetings, too?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Ya I don't really see the problem of the NMRA saying you can come to a Division's clinics / meetings / get together X no. of times to see how you like it, but then after that you need to join to keep attending. Depends how it's set up, if the local NMRA is sponsoring an event that's kinda like an open house or swap meet or something where the public is invited, then fine...but if it's part of the regular functioning of the division why shouldn't they be able to restrict it to member's only to some extent??
If the local Kiwanis or Rotarians or somebody hold a monthly fund-raising pancake breakfast and you want to attend every month you should be able to do so, but I imagine if you started just showing up at their regular monthly meetings at some point they'd say you need to join if you want to keep attending.
I've been an NMRA member for the last 3 years or so. IIRC from our meetings, the NMRA insurance covers members at meetings and other NMRA sponsored events such as the annual train show put on by the local division or when the module group sets up at an event. It will only cover NMRA members.
As others have stated, if you are regularly attending your local NMRA division's meetings, but haven't or refuse to join, then IMO they have every right to ask you to join if you want to continue to attend meetings or request that you leave. What kking of message does it send to the other paying members of the division if you can continue to attend meetings without paying dues and receive the benefits of membership without being a member. Why should others join or renew? Do you expect to be able to go to a local MRR club, run trains etc. without joining and paying dues?
Quite frankly, I applaud the division for telling you either join or go home. [Comment removed]
I have been an nmra member since the late 1960's, have attended many annual meetings, local meetings, div. meetings because I made the effort to do so. I did all this while working in an area that takes a lot of my time and can't always be scheduled. And there were times when I regretted having to spend the money, but decided it was the right thing to do.
I believe in the organization, which after all is just another man made organization, I believe in the work they do to set and maintain standards, and I suspect that if the NMRA did not exist, the face of the hobby would look much different. I might also add the NMRA is the only organization I belong to outside of my professional area. I learned much from my contacts with the NMRA members, most of which are pretty ordinary and decent guys, I earned my MMR certificates and improved my knowledge and skills in the process, which benefited my layout(s). I am also old enough to remember the hobby before standards were created.
I do not condemn those who take a free ride in the hobby on standards developed and maintained by the nmra, because there is no law that says they have to belong. But I guess I don't have much compassion for those who complain about it but don't belong. It is easy to snip at what others do if you don't have to do anything about it.
I have not heard much about the insurance thing, but, I guess I am not surprised. I live in a neighborhood, but my insurance doesn't pay for my neighbors to live there, they have to do it. I only pay for my house and maintain liability for my property only.
Back to sleep
Bob
I am not a member and would have little hope of attending mettings, clinics, or events in my area. {That doesn't mean I never would or could}
HOWEVER, perhaps they could charge a per-event fee to attend that would provide a "temporary trial status membership" for that day or event that could satisfy the inurance company???
As with everything, "membership has its priveleges"; and insurance companies are out to make a buck and lately seem to "rip people/organizations/companies/entities off" with exhorbitant rates or sticky tricky conditions.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I not going to go as far as saying that it's unfair ,but the point is, if you want to attend all the NMRA functions then being a member should be a requirement. Although being a member has it's benefits, my complaint is that I'm forced to be a member because it is a requirement to be a member of the NMRA to be a member of our local railroad club. The benefit of being a member is that by joining, I have an insurance policy. I show my layout for our local fall open house every year and by being a NMRA member, I'm insured in case someone hurts themselves on my property and decides to sue me during an open house session.
You don't have to spend $50.00 - $60.00 to be a member. The basic fee without all the bells and whistles that come with membership is ony $36.00. I figure that the money goes to a good cause. Besides that, the yearly calendar they send out for joining is pretty nice ....chuck
Silver Pilot I've been an NMRA member for the last 3 years or so. IIRC from our meetings, the NMRA insurance covers members at meetings and other NMRA sponsored events such as the annual train show put on by the local division or when the module group sets up at an event. It will only cover NMRA members. Quite frankly, I applaud the division for telling you either join or go home. [Comment removed]
Let's get a few things straight here. Historically the NMRA Divisions always welcomed outsiders to attend their meetings and to get familiar with the groups members (it usually takes more than a meeting or two). Until recently, Divisions were also able to charge their own modest membership fees to support them. In my many years associated with the NMRA there was never a problem dealing with either situation. Occasionally there were individuals who really couldn't afford full NMRA membership and these guys were always welcome at Division meetings.
In just the past few years decisions have come down from the NMRA HQ that Regions and Divisions could no longer charge individual membership dues (their sole means of support) and that all money, except that charged for local newsletter subscriptions, must go to HQ. In return, Regions and Divisions were returned a pittance from which to operate. This has unfavorably burdened many of the Divisions, some ending up having to pass the hat at meetings to remain solvent..
This was followed by the suggestion that only NMRA members should be entitled to attend Divivisional meetings. It was frowned upon by HQ but not forbidden. Likewise, for years attendance of many annual Regional conventions was open to outsiders for a modest additional fee. Since the first practice was more-or-less optional and the conventions opened to all and reasonably priced, this served to expose a great many newcomers to what we had to offer and many eventually joined.
More recently, however, the dictate came down that outsiders were no longer to be allowed to attend Divisional meetings, supposedly for insurance reasons, and Regional conventions must charge a larger additional fee making the outsider attendee an NMRA member for 6, or 12 months (I forget which), like it or not.
Quite honestly, what I've seen in the way of changes, radical ideas that go against the membership's wishes, or best interests, and the dramatic dues increases over the past 6-8 years, has completely turned me off from the organization and I've very recently let my longtime membership lapse. The "hard sell" doesn't work in these troubled economic times and I think that the NMRA is headed for more uncertainties.
CNJ831
rogerhensley I've been a member since 1980. Now, I think that attending Division meetings without being a member is taking advantage of the NMRA. You are complaining that you cannot attend after you dropped your membership? You want your cake and eat it too! I have attended many, many division meets and although I am not as active as I once was, I still attend one or two a year. Yes, the price is going up but what isn't? The AP and the Standards and RPs alone are worth the price, not to speak of Scale Rails. NMRA membership is not for everyone, but it is certainly for many of us.
I'm considering on joining the NMRA--not just for the workshops but for all kinds of other reasons as well.
As for the issue with insurance companies 'dictating' what an organization can, or should be doing----BTDT---that is why I say that --"herr dictatorship"--the insurance company, has created more issues than it solves
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The point is, if you are able to attend all the local division's meetings without being a member then why would anyone join? As cwclark pointed out, the no frills membership rate is $36/year or $3/month. Our local division has a special new member rate of $10 they offer during their annual train show.
There is a sound business reason for charging non-members more than members to attend NMRA sponsored events such as regional and national conventions - encouraging people to join. It is done in many other organizations. A professional group that I am a member of charge a significantly lower rate for members than non-members for its educational seminars. its a way of getting people to join by providing some kind of financial benefit to being a member.
If there was a person to whom the annual dues amount was a true financial burden I am sure the local division would find a way of helping that individual.
How much you get out of your membership is up to you. In my case, I was member for a while before a situation occurred within the division that utilized my professional knowledge. Since offering to help with this I've become more involved and active. Prior to that I hardly attended meetings etc. I live a good hour drive from the meeting location. Add to that the meeting being on a Friday evening, staying late after work to avoid a doubly long drive and it makes for a long, long day. But I still attend when schedules permit. One thing I'm sure that applies to all divisions is the desire they have for new, younger members. What you get out of your membership is a function of what you put in.
Coming from a non-NMRA member, I don't see anything wrong with wanting only members to attend certain functions or events. No different than any other events held throughout the world that are for clubs, or organization members only. We as MRR's already reap many benefits from the NMRA with all the standards they have created.
$36 dollars is cheaper than a years subscription to a magazine that gives you what. Compared to what from the NMRA? Providing of course you can attend. What you do get regardless of whether you can attend any meets or seminars or meetings, is to keep alive an organization that let's us all play together.
Now many of us, myself included, can't see paying dues to belong to an organization that we can't justify, right or wrong way of thinking, the expense because we can't get any special benefits from belonging because of our location or whatever. We are already recieving benefits from their existance anyway. But I don't feel, other than a trial period, that the NMRA meetings and functions should be open to the public i.e. non members unless for a special event or membership drive maybe. If all was open to me, why would I join? A magazine and calender?
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
CNJ831 In just the past few years decisions have come down from the NMRA HQ that Regions and Divisions could no longer charge individual membership dues (their sole means of support) and that all money, except that charged for local newsletter subscriptions, must go to HQ. In return, Regions and Divisions were returned a pittance from which to operate. This has unfavorably burdened many of the Divisions, some ending up having to pass the hat at meetings to remain solvent.
It also made every person a member of a division, where previously you paid separate dues to the division. For the division that meant a huge increase in costs. If there were 500 NMRA members in a division's area and 20 participated in division activities, if you wanted to notify them of events, etc, you had to mail out 20 letters. With everybody a division member you now have to mail out 500 letters. It pretty much killed the division newsletters.
All the contortions that resulted from the reorg was a big reason I left the NMRA. That and a disagreement with "Scale Rails" over some of my articles they published.
Sounds like I made the right decision.
The NMRA should start making plans to transition into an industry standards group (like the AAR) instead of a hobby enthusiast group, becasue with those policies (and prices) there won't be many new hobbyists that become members. A "train show" ticket is in the $5-10 range. Adding an additional $10-20 on for a limited NMRA membership along with requiring the filling out of membership forms at the door will pretty much kill walk-in attendence. Either that or the regions/divisions will have to hold shows that aren't affiliated with the NMRA.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Interesting topic. Time to find a new insurance carrier!
From a non-member perspective, I think NMRA meetings should be members only, with non-members beign able to apply for an invitation to attend as a visitor so they can get the feel of things. There could be a limit to the number of times one could attend as a visitor.
As for clinics, there should be an admission charge for non-members. This could be one of the benefits of being a member, free clinic admissions.
I looked at joining the NMRA a few years ago but didn't care for the terms offered to Canadians at the time so I passed. Now I wonder if there would really be any benefit in my being a member, considering where I am located. Just my two cents. Long live the NMRA and Model Railroading!
CNJ831More recently, however, the dictate came down that outsiders were no longer to be allowed to attend Divisional meetings, supposedly for insurance reasons, and Regional conventions must charge a larger additional fee making the outsider attendee an NMRA member for 6, or 12 months (I forget which), like it or not.
Interesting......???
I am a Superintendent of an NMRA Division, and I can not find anywhere where it says a non-NMRA Member cannot be a guest at a Division Meet...... In fact in the Insurance Information document, it says:
"12) Can Non-Members Attend Division and Regional Meets?
Yes, but they cannot participate in NMRA Contests or receive benefits of membership."
I do know that non-members cannot attend Regional Conventions (Different from a meet) with the exception of spouses, etc. For layout tours, NMRA members opening their layouts to the tour are covered by the Insurance policy. Non-members are not and must either join the NMRA or sign an insurance waiver form holding the NMRA "Safe Harmless' if anything should happen. It is the Superintendents responsibility to make sure the issue is properly taken care of.
The NMRA has a 6 months "Railpass Membership" for $9.95. It is a one time membership that gives the new member all benefits of membership for a 6 month period.
My division just held an "Open Meet" at a very large train show a couple weekends ago where the public was invited to attend. I know of no "rules" against such a meeting. The insurance covers the membership and their property. If a guest causes an accident, the NMRA is not liable, the guest is.....
I think what the OP was referring to is either a Regional or Division "rule" and they are using the insurance thing as a reason for the policy
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
I have been a member of the NMRA for some time as well but seldom am able to attend regional meetings or clinics. Yet, I recognize how much the organization has contributed to the hobby over the years, especially in regard to standards and DCC. Scale Rails has been drastically improved recently and the Kalmbach Library has proven helpful more than once for me. IMO, I will continue to be a member as long as the dues don't become too prohibitive.
John
Mebane, NC
I think it may be helpful to try to define some terms that have been bantered around here.
At least in my Division, the terms would mean:
Meet - A monthly, quarterly, or even less frequent depending on the division, meeting of the membership. We usually charge a small amount for admission to members and a couple dollars more to "Guests" (yes membership should have its privileges!). This is our way of covering the costs of putting on a meet. (Hopefully......)
Clinic - one of the activities at a meet or a convention.
Convention - a several day long meeting usually held at the regional level once (or sometimes twice) a year. The annual National Meeting for membership is also a Convention.
Modelers Corner - held at train shows, it is a working display of model railroading. This is a key opportunity to meet with and show the public what we do, and hopefully gain some new members. (My division does three of these every year.)
Layout Tours - these can be part of a meet (we have several layouts that are open for visits of members and their guests at every meet). They can also be events by themselves, depending on the division.
Hope the above is helpful.
Hi!
I'm been an NMRA member since the '80s, and just renewed for 2 years. While I have never actually attended an NMRA event, and don't get particularly excited over Scale Rails, my support is mainly to keep the Hobby's "conformances & standards" efforts ongoing.
Without their efforts, DCC manufacturers would probably be somewhat incompatable, as would so many other aspects of model railroading. And these efforts at standardization certainly help keep costs down - at least lower than they would be otherwise.
I totally agree that the dues have gotten pricey, but if you can afford it, IMHO you should be a member.
Hey, for what its worth.....
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Time to find a new insurance carrier? Wow. Good luck finding an insurance company that will insure people for nothing.
Every solvent insurer today insists on certain conditions in order to underwrite an event, organization, or a life. If they insist on paid up membership, so be it. Otherwise, they will have to apportion the costs/head to the rest of the paid membership, meaning that the paid members will have to carry those who can't/won't pay. Risk to the insurer goes up with each visitor or paid attendee at any one event.
-Crandell
To bring this back to the OP's comments, after re-reading the original post, I wonder if he's changed his perspective? He originally stated that he didn't renew because he didn't see any particular value, yet still attended the clinics. That seems to indicate that he put some value on the clinics since he was attending them (otherwise whouldn't that have just been a waste of time?). The question back to the OP is, "What are those clinics worth?" The insurance company part is simply a red herring IMO.
I had joined in the early 1970s, more to support the NMRA's work on developing standards, past and ongoing, than any other reason. I continued as a member for around 15 years, but when the time came for renewing after a 5-year term had expired I let it lapse.
The main reason was cost, which had become far too high compared to my benefits. The renewal notice suggested that membership dues for the local division and region was now an obligatory part of renewing, and quite frankly, I am not an active enough modeler for them to be important to me. While a member I attended one Divisional meet. A cheaper option was to not get the magazine, but that meant I would no longer be in touch with any discussion of new standards, which was the main reason for joining in the first place. The lack of transparency on the fiscal position of the HQ building also troubled me.
Some years later the "rerail" program sent a mailing, at which time I borrowed a friend's recent issues of the magazine. It had become glossier, and appeared to be an attempt to compete with the commercial press rather than a means of membership communication. One of the most important sections, that of letters from members, had been eliminated entirely. Perhaps the discussion therein was embarrassing to entrenched interests - whatever the reason I was appalled. And I got far better value out of the mainstream press with articles that were of greater relevance to my activities. So the decision to ignore it was easy.
From this thread it sounds like the internal problems continue. I wonder if the insurance issue also applies up here in Canada.
I'm a member and I guess I'm a little confused. You are complaining that a private club that charges dues to support it's private activities won't let someone who does not pay dues participate in those activities? What kind of world do we live in?
And I think some are missing the point. The issue is not the insurance carrier. The issue is that there are some who feel entitled, for whatever reason, to live off someone elses dollar. Ray
selector Risk to the insurer goes up with each visitor or paid attendee at any one event
When I made the comment about the "herr dictatorship" the insurance company I was not assuming that one should find an insurance company for free---(like that will happen--lol!!). When one lives in a litigious culture one gets to do simple things in a complicated manner----
I expect that when NMRA does a workshop that I would pay higher as a non member---I'd like to see these people who think that going as a non member entitles them to a free workshop or whatever
I normally do not post in the forums....but this time I had too....One of my pet peeves are complaints of people over the price of membership in various hobby organizations. I believe the NMRA over all is good for the hobby of modeling railroading. (I belong to another hobby orgainization inaddition to model trains) I even enjoy the magazine that comes with membership. For God's sake it is only $60.00 a year rounded up. $5.00 whole dollars a month!!!!! People spend more on toilet paper. If membership in an orgainzation is not "worth" it some people then quit whining and expecting to show up sponsored events for free.
Wbmfishman