I'm looking at adding a steamer to my non-prototypical layout and the J1e looks like a decent steam engine that has what I'm looking for DCC/sound/smoke and runs on 18 degree turns (mine are mostly 20 but want to be safe). I think my 5 year old would like the whole organic feel of the wheels and smoke vs the NP diesel (dcc and sound) I have now.I know MTH makes some nice trains, but it seems most of the steam engines are the huge BigBoy types that need >= 22 degree turns. Even most of the BLI 4-8-4 need 22 turns it seems to run well.So I was looking for some suggestions from you folks as to alternatives to the J1e that has DCC/sound/smoke than runs on 18-20 degree turns. Price shouldn't be much over the MSRP (350?) of the J1e. Still looking for some hobby shop that has one of these at a great price that has it in stock, seems like these sold quite well and are a bit harder to find. Not exactly sure why most of the internet stores list all of their sold out equipment, it's a real pain to dig through though a few allow me to show only in-stock merch.
Yes, 18" radius curves are what I meant. I was thinking of degrees because of some computer programming stuff I'm currently working on.Regarding smoke, I don't plan on running smoke constantly because I've seen and read about it and in my basement smoke running constantly would probably be a sickening experience. But I'm pretty set on having it available for the few times my son asks for it. I haven't read up on what kind of liquid they use for smoke if it's the same stuff used in smoke machines for bars, etc. If it's the same stuff, when I got into the smoke machines for Halloween, I read that Froggy's Fog Juice was some of the best stuff you can get as far as least smell, eye irritation.If Rivarossi made one so long ago, doubt it had DCC and sound. Not looking to shoehorn my own electonics in there and there probably isn't much price difference vs just getting it already built in.BLI says the J1e does an 18" radius, so my 20" should be ok. The reason I liked the J1e is that it had some big drivers that my son could easily see. Most of the 0-6-0 types didn't seem like there was much wheel action going on that would interest my son.
The J1e from BLI can be bought refurbished right now for $209.00 on www.broadway-limited.com under the Refurbished section. I've bought a couple of refurbished items from them and to be honest, they have had no issues whatsoever.
Tyler I'm looking at adding a steamer to my non-prototypical layout and the J1e looks like a decent steam engine that has what I'm looking for DCC/sound/smoke and runs on 18 degree turns (mine are mostly 20 but want to be safe). I think my 5 year old would like the whole organic feel of the wheels and smoke vs the NP diesel (dcc and sound) I have now.I know MTH makes some nice trains, but it seems most of the steam engines are the huge BigBoy types that need >= 22 degree turns. Even most of the BLI 4-8-4 need 22 turns it seems to run well.So I was looking for some suggestions from you folks as to alternatives to the J1e that has DCC/sound/smoke than runs on 18-20 degree turns. Price shouldn't be much over the MSRP (350?) of the J1e. Still looking for some hobby shop that has one of these at a great price that has it in stock, seems like these sold quite well and are a bit harder to find. Not exactly sure why most of the internet stores list all of their sold out equipment, it's a real pain to dig through though a few allow me to show only in-stock merch.
A nice alternative to the Paragon 2 J1e Hudson would be the MTH Mikado or the MTH K4. These engines smoke like a beast, should handle sharper turns (I can't promise anything though),they really aren't big locos at all however they are expensive. The plus side is they are die cast. If you like big driver wheels, you will love the MTH K4. Watch some videos of it on youtube. I'm pretty sure it will handle sharp radius turns, at least compared to the Big Boy or Erie Triplex.
I used to have negative feelings towards smoke units in HO, because all available at that time were Seuthe units, which in my humble opinion aren't that good.
After owning several MTH HO locos, I have changed my attitude. The smoke looks incredibly realistic, you use the MTH smoke fluid dropper that comes with the loco to refill it. So far, I haven't had any issues with track cleaning. This may change in time, but so far I'm impressed.
I too like the look of Paragon 2 Hudson, and I may buy one in the future, however I prefer MTH's smoking locos for now because they are die cast, they have that heavy feel of the lionel trains we grew up with but are compacted into a smaller scale we can work with.
Although its pricey, I would really try to get my hands on the K4. Its short, smokes like crazy, its heavy, and has incredible sound (seriously, you will not find better sound anywhere in HO). But they are rare now, most are sold out.
A high-drivered Pacific class 4-6-2 would be a very good stand-in for a Hudson, but have you considered a more modest Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0? It isn't going to have large drivers, but a child, with his/her superior resolution optically and wider iris will see much better than you can....really, I would be shopping for myself and let youth to what it does for the young.
Note that if you want sound and digital control, there are differences between MTH and the various DCC systems. They have considerable crossover, but you should learn what the limitations/incompatibilities are in each case.
-Crandell
The Pacific, as noted above would be a good choice. Another idea would be something like a Bachmann 10 wheeler, as it's small enough for any curve.
You know, a New York Central Hudson is a very nice and unique engine. The BLI model looks great, sounds great, and would be a good purchase. That being said, I am going to suggest you consider something else for this. An engine even of that size really isn't meant for 18" or 20" curves. I am a college student that built a smaller 5 by 8 ft. (with 2 foot extension on one end) layout as a learning tool and step towards the "big one". I have 22" curves and #4 switches on it, and it's really meant for 40 foot boxcars and small steam/4 axle diesels. I have a Hudson in the box waiting for the bigger layout someday, but I have gotten it out on this current setup, and it just doesn't do all that well with the 22" curves. It looks terrible going around the layout, and is very picky about trackwork and may even try to jump the rail here and there.
I would suggest you try something smaller, like the 2-8-0 or an 0-8-0, or at least get a Mikado size engine. It's a bit smaller than the Hudson arrangement, and has smaller drivers that will operate better. MR has used Mikes in a couple of their project layouts with 18" curves, and they seem to work ok.
Just my two cents on the subject. Steam engines really are fun and interesting though, and I recommend you get some kind of steam.
TylerYes, 18" radius curves are what I meant. I was thinking of degrees because of some computer programming stuff I'm currently working on.
Tyler,
Some sectional track does come in 22-1/2 degree pieces. So, actually, you weren't off by much.
Regarding smoke, I don't plan on running smoke constantly because I've seen and read about it and in my basement smoke running constantly would probably be a sickening experience. But I'm pretty set on having it available for the few times my son asks for it. I haven't read up on what kind of liquid they use for smoke if it's the same stuff used in smoke machines for bars, etc. If it's the same stuff, when I got into the smoke machines for Halloween, I read that Froggy's Fog Juice was some of the best stuff you can get as far as least smell, eye irritation.
If you have your heart set on smoke then BLI and MTH are pretty much your choices. The downside to MTH is that their proprietary DCS technology is somewhat limited on DCC. In other words, there are certain CV settings that you will not be able to adjust or tweak - i.e. unless you also purchase an MTH DCS system.
The MTH smoke units are pretty impressive to see. BLI's new Paragon2 technology mimicks that. The present BLI Paragon 2 offerings are in the following driver configurations: 4-6-4, 4-8-4, 2-10-0, and 2-8-8-2. BLI will be releasing the NYC 4-6-4 Dreyfuss Hudson early next year. It will also be a Paragon2 offering and should be quite handsome. Realistically, however, you won't see it until at least January '10 or later. (I would predict March.)
If smoke can be weeded out of the "givens" column, there are a number of very nice offerings. The BLI NYC Niagara comes with some amazing sound to it and drivers that are 79". (Gee, can you tell I model the NYC. LOL!) Both BLI's Mohawk and Niagaras negotiate my R18 and R22" curves fine. They would, however, look and operate better on larger radii curve. The BLI L-4 Mohawks come with 72" drivers.
If smoke is not negotiable; besides the offerings previously mentioned, may I also suggest the Trix 2-8-2 Mikado. Although it is no longer being produced, it can still be purchased off places like eBay and it is smoke-unit ready. (All you have to do is add a $15-20 aftermarket smoke unit to it. Marklin/Trix makes one that just slides right in.) The Trix Mikes are a beautiful piece of craftsmanship and run as smooth as glass. However, the price tag for one will run you in the $400+ range.
If Rivarossi made one so long ago, doubt it had DCC and sound. Not looking to shoehorn my own electonics in there and there probably isn't much price difference vs just getting it already built in.BLI says the J1e does an 18" radius, so my 20" should be ok. The reason I liked the J1e is that it had some big drivers that my son could easily see. Most of the 0-6-0 types didn't seem like there was much wheel action going on that would interest my son.
Locomotives were all designed to serve a particular purpose. The small drivers found on switchers such as 0-6-0 and 0-8-0s were for increased tractive force (needed in switching to get rolling stock rolling), as well as for the ability to negotiate tight curves, if and when needed. Larger drivers, on the other hand, were designed for speed - i.e. either for high-speed freight service or for passenger service.
The Mikados (63" drivers) might be a nice compromise between the smaller switchers and the larger passenger locomotives. Your son shouldn't have any problem seeing them. Both MTH and BLI offer the Mikado. Besides Trix mentioned above, MTH would be the only other one available with a smoke unit.
For non-smoking, smaller driver switchers, the Proto 2000 0-6-0 and 0-8-0s can't be beat for detail and smooth operation. Get the 2nd runs, if you can. They come with all-wheel electrical pickup in the tender and are fitted for traction tires.
Tyler, hope that helps somehow...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tyler, lot of people mistake track problems for to small of radius problem. Yes, bigger engines look better with bigger turns. I have one 18 inch turn left, but at one point had around 6 of them. If well laid big engines will handle the tight turns. I have mainly large engines, E-6's GE AC 6000's, RSD 15, SD 7, SD40-2, Dash 9's and large steam. Class J, M1 A, Heavy Mike (8 drivers but pretty small engine) Y-6 b 2-8-8-2 and a Big Boy 4-8-8-4.
All of my big engines will handle the smaller 18 turns, but all were listed as they would work on a 18 inch turn. Do they look silly on the 18 inch turn? Yes, but they track fine.
I have the old Paragon Hudson, it does not smoke but sounds good and track's pretty good. I had to add some weight to the front truck, after that no real problem. Steam engines will find flaws in your track, fix them and you should not have a problem.
I did have to Bachmann GS-4's that smoked and they did make a mess.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I think if I'm going to add another loco to my 8'x10' layout, it's got to be the full thing: DCC, sound, and smoke. I'm also not a big fan of the streamlined loco's, I like to see the details underneath.It seems like others have had luck with their larger engines, maybe not specifically the J1e, on 18" curves I'm hoping my 20" and #6 turnouts will work quite well. Given my 8x10, if the loco looks funny on the turns, that doesn't bother me one bit. I'm using 2 pieces of soldered flex-track on all of my 20" turns, so I'm hoping the engines will track well. It's my first track building since I had sectional track some 30 years ago. I would have gone with 22" turns but it took up more space on my layout than I liked. So while not 22", 20 is better than 18 I thought.The refurbished BLI looks like a way to go, didn't even see that link on their site and I've been there quite often, so that was a great suggestion.If I'm going to do smoke, I want it to look good. I could just add a Seuthe smoke unit to any steamer and call it good, but the synchronized smoke is what sells it. The other non-sync'd just looks like a cigarette stuffed inside the loco. So it seems MTH and BLI are the only ones that really offer that.The DCS stuff from MTH makes me hesitate. DCC is out there for a reason, standardization. I can't imagine changing a lot of the CVs but I don't like the idea of proprietary DCC on my layout for future reasons.
TylerIf I'm going to do smoke, I want it to look good. I could just add a Seuthe smoke unit to any steamer and call it good, but the synchronized smoke is what sells it. The other non-sync'd just looks like a cigarette stuffed inside the loco. So it seems MTH and BLI are the only ones that really offer that.
Want it to "look good," eh? THIS looks good. Anything less, not so good. The stack is only one place where exhaust happens...
TylerIt seems like others have had luck with their larger engines, maybe not specifically the J1e, on 18" curves
J1 E is a Hudson like the one I have. I will guess you might need to add some weight like I did to the front truck. BLI is using the same castings over and over. Same casting is being used form the old Paragon for Paragon II, Blue Line and PCM. If the drive wheels are the same, the center driver's will be blind. In other words there will be no flanges in case you have not heard the term before.
If your track is level (no dips or high spots) you should be fine. If you where to have a derailment problem, I bet it will be the led truck picking a turnout. That is where the extra weight comes in. Easy to do fix.
Smoke them if you got them.
J1 E is a Hudson like the one I have. I will guess you might need to add some weight like I did to the front truck.
I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but how did you add weight to the front truck of the Hudson? I have two Hudsons, and as you say, the front truck is too light and likes to derail when it can.
I cut down a wheel weight for balancing tires and stuck it on top of the truck.
Thanks. I'll have to look those engines over. I know how to add weight to trains, but I didn't think there was room on the front truck. Thanks again.
Thanks to everyone for their ideas. I pulled the trigger and bought one of the last refurbished J1e models on BLI website so thanks for that suggestion! I'll also keep the front wheel weight issue in mind when I get around to a test run.Now I need some ideas on some decent passenger cars for it to pull. I have an old Rivarossi (probably 80') that's a bit too long for my layout. Would probably be better with 50'-60' footers.In my non-prototypical railroad, I'd like the NYC roadnames to match but it's not required. I run Kadee #5 couplers in all my cars so would prefer something new that doesn't have the old horn couplers like my current Rivarossi does. I'd like something that is close in time period to when the J1e ran so as to look from the same era, this is probably more important than the others stuff except length.
I have 3 of the Rivarossi NYC hudsons... I think they are J3's, but in all honesty a child won't care that much. I run them on a layout with the minimum of 18" radius and they run fine. They can't pull their way out of a paper bag, though. If you can figure out how to add some weight to them they make fine runners and are pretty detailed. You can typically find them on ebay for around $50.
Far as passenger cars (which I am not a fan of, I like freight) look at Con-Cor, I have some 70 cars that work fine on tight turns with some work. I used long shank Kadee couplers that I mounted to the body, added Proto wheels and weights. Detail meets my standards, but I am half blind any way! I have 14 of them. You can find them at Walther's for around $15.00 each.
If they have any you can use, I be happy to walk you though make them track well.
I just picked up a BLI Paragon PRR K4 Pacific and it handles my 18" circle of Bachmann Ez Track on the dining room table just fine. Its all diecast, no smoke but with my asthma, thats the first feature turned off if an engine has it. One of the club members has the MTH UP 4-12-2 monster with smoke and it leaves an oily film all over the boiler and with all the details, its not gonna be easy to clean that up, cant exactly put it in the sink to degrease it. The MTH also requires much higher voltage from the transformer to operate. Thats a feature on all MTH HO scale engines due to the DCS system. I recommend the BLI K4 Pacific locomotive, they can be had very affordably on the second hand market, paid $150 for mine and it had little to no wheel wear and was in its original box with all paperwork. Came from a collection that wasnt operated much prior to the gentleman passing away. I have other newer steam engines including Bachmanns NKP Berkshire, Proto 2000 NKP Berkshire and a Bachmann K4 Pacific, the diecast BLI feels much less fragile when handling and will outpull everything but my brass engines. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
TylerSo I was looking for some suggestions from you folks as to alternatives to the J1e that has DCC/sound/smoke than runs on 18-20 degree turns.