EFFECTS of the worst model train company

[FJ and G]

The real question here is not what the worst railroad company is or was; the real question is how many beginning HO modelers purchased a set out of naiveity and subsequently became frustrated and quit the hobby??????

I was one.

Took years for me to get back in

Dave Vergun

[Jacktal]

I did worse!!!I have a fine roster of locos,mostly new Kato's and Atlas's,plus a few nicely running Bachmann's and Life-Like's,but went for cheap trackwork.Atlas tracks are not bad but their turnouts are giving me all sorts of problems.I model "N" scale.

[Anonymous]

Your point is right on the money. Sometimes I wi***he hobby manufacturers like Bachamnn and Life Like would just drop their mostly low end garbage and comcentrate on what they do best -Spectrum and Proto1k and 2k stuff. Ultimately they may sell more products because if my first HO had been one of their low end items, I would have more than likely started flying RC planes. If a newbee is interested enough in trains they may stick it out and search for something better in their subsequent model train purchases, but probably many wouldbe model railroaders just called it quits, because it wasn't fun staring at something that didn't run , and/or looked stupid to them after they learned just a little bit more than when they started out.

I imagine this is a larger issue in locales where there isn't a LHS, and a newbee will probably acquire their first model train from KB Toys, Hobby Lobby or Wally World-all known for carrying nothing but the finest (sic) HO trainsets.

Unfortunately, as long as retailers inventory junk, this problem will persist. I'm amazed when I see this crap in LHSs. Do they think that they'll develop a loyal -for -a -lifetime customer, or are they just trying to grab one sale at a time. Or are they just stuoid?

[FJ and G]

speaking of trackwork...

brass HO trackwork of yesteryear

crappy hook couplers

junkky powerpacks

jerky, fastmoving locomotives

all from Woolworth's, the only store in Gloversville NY that sold model trains.

I did it all. Went to an HO model club as a kid (1970); no one talked to me or paid attention. So, left the hobby then and didn't get back into it until 2000 when I bought a Lionel set that didn't have any of those problems.

Sure, you know-it-alls can tell me I should have purchased a quality set; but I didn't know about those and besides, whatever I purchased, I did by mowing lawns and shoveling snow.

CRAPPY train companies did (and STILL DO) more to hurt this hobby than any one other thing.

Mad?

You bet.

Willing to forgive?

Not on your life!

dav

[CBQ_Guy]

My brother in law, years ago, got some crappy HO stuff and set it up on a couple sheets of plywood in his basement. This was for him and his two sons to share. I didn't know a thing about it and he never mentioned it to me.

By the time I first saw it, there were many easily avoidable and correctable problems. But by then the boys had lost interest and he was so frustrated with the whole experience he said he was ready to take an ax to the "layout". I offered to work with him on it, etc., but by then he was super burned out and didn't want any more to do with the whole thing.

Too bad, we lost another one to lack of info, guidance, and cheap equipment. It could have been avoided...

[philnrunt]

I was lucky, I had a Varney MP F-3 or 7 that ran fine, so when I started buying Tyco stuff, it set me back in my enthusiam a bit but did'nt kill it.
Cab rides in my grandpa's SW-1 did'nt hurt either!
After the Varney was gone...never did know what happened to it, but I think my big brother had something to do with it...I got an N scale set with a styrofoam layout that kept me entertained for years. 1-160 trains, 1:72 soldiers and 1-1 rocks were a great combo for exciting train wrecks and ambushes!
When I got back into HO, I went with Athearn and hav'nt had the first problem with them.
At the St Marys, Oh Hobby Shop, the owner put up a handmade sign telling newbies what the best bang for their bucks was. I think ALL shops should do this, it might upset Model Power sales reps(if there are such things) but it would start folks off on the right path.

[cacole]

My first experience with HO was way back in its very earliest days. I had American Flyer S-gauge Royal Blue sets when I was growing up. My older brother nailed some brass snap track to a piece of plywood and had a few pieces of equipment. I don't remember any brand names at all because this was 50 years ago when HO was just beginning to be marketed. I remember his swearing at how bad things ran.

My first experience with HO scale was in the mid 1960s when I bought an MDC cast metal 0-4-0 locomotive kit that I still have, and it still runs, though not as good as today's models with can motors. I also assembled a Bowser cast metal Pacific locomotive kit around the same time, but foolishly sold it in the early 1970s. Flex track back then used brass rail and fiber ties. The rail was held to the crossties with staples. It the ties ever got wet, they curled up and ruined the track.

Affordable rolling stock in the '60s and '70s, for me at least, was Varney or MDC, and I still have and use nearly all of it. I don't recall if Athearn existed then or not. I remember all too well trying to assemble Kadee #4 couplers and having the springs fly all over the room. I would not want to go through that experience again, not even with a magnifier. One piece knuckle couplers ala McHenry, Bachmann, etc. have really been a blessing.

Metal wheels were in the kits of some items back then, but their rolling qualities were horrible. Now I put P2K, Kadee, LBF, or InterMountain wheels on everything that I possibly can, but retain the plastic truck frames if the wheels roll good in them. If not, I change the entire truck to Kato, Atlas, P2K, or Kadee. Most metal trucks were unpainted pot metal that was pretty brittle and had to be handled very carefully. Sometimes a replacement truck cost almost as much as the original kit.

In the mid-1970s, when I was in the Army and stationed in Munich, Germany, I built a small HO-scale layout for my son. Now, here comes the answer to the worst model railroading company: it's a toss-up between Cox and Lima. I bought a Cox U.S. Army train set by mail order from the US, and a pair of Lima Penn Central diesel locomotives from a hobby shop in Munich. I don't know who actually made the locomotive that came in the Cox set, but it never did run well. It has brass and plastic wheels, and the motor is mounted right on the rear truck -- similar to Tyco locomotives. The wheels on the rolling stock can't be replaced because the axles have a blunt end instead of being needle-pointed. I use that train only as a static display today. The detail on the rolling stock was satisfactory, but the plastic wheels are out of round and don't roll well. As far as the Lima locomotives are concerned, they too are very poorly made and ran at only two speeds -- stop or full blast. Here, too, the wheels are brass or plastic, and the motor is mounted to and powers only the rear truck. More static display models. One of them even caught fire one day when I tried to run it.

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that rolling stock kits back in those days was metal and wood pieces that had to be screwed or soldered together, and painted. Some pieces, such as boxcars, came with pre-painted and lettered sides, but you were on your own when it came to the ends, floor, and roof. Even the trucks were in pieces and had to be assembled. No cheap plastic stuff here, either -- metal sideframes and bolsters, with coil springs.

No latex or acrylic paints then either -- oil based was the only stuff available, and it took several days to dry. No super glue -- model airplane cement in a tube for assembling wood pieces. That stuff contained solvents that have been outlawed by the EPA.

[Anonymous]

My first contact with the hobby, was with Marklin, great trains, and since 1953, they still run great.

[Anonymous]

I have a Model Power E Unit,and yes compared to P2K or BWL, it doesn't measuer up, but in defence of it, many finely detailed models were built from these over the years and they do have Roco motors in them. I only have the one and for some reason, I can't part with it. I bought it for $7.00 at a LHS and just tucked it back for a project someday. It's undeced, so no stripping just detail and paint. If I don't like the way it came out, I'll start over. No big deal for $7.00 bucks. If it comes out great then I add to the fleet.

[simon1966]

While there is evidence that a cheap trainset may well put some people off, I suspect that there are many for whom this was the start that got them going in the hobby. My first train was a cheap Triang set that combined a powered road and a train. The small car (A jaguar E type or XKE for this side of the pond) could be switched to run up a ramp, onto a flat car and then the train could pull off around its loop. It never worked properly and I remember getting very frustrated and smashed the road! (I had an awful temper as a kid!). This terrible expereince did not put me off!. I then spent more time with the train and saved my pocket money and added better quality Hornby items. I think that poor, entry level toy equipment is a fact of life in most hobbies that start in childhood. RC is a good example. I would hazard a guess that most people don't purchase their first trainset themselves, they are given as gifts. More often than not they are given by someone who does not really know much about the hobby. While every one of us could show a newbie how to get a good quality starter set together with limited funds, this is very unlikely to happen, since most folk wont even know where to start. Companies like Atlas, who made a great quality set have quit making them. They were justifiably more expensive than the more readily avialable LL sets.

Here is what I think the problem is:

1. Kids first trainset is most likely a wooden Thomas set. Lots of imagination and play value can be had with this type of train. My kids moved onto more realsitic trains from www.woodentrain.com (Brilliant stuff by the way, and a great way to extend the life of the wooden train track when they have outgrown Thomas).

2. First electric train is purchased for them. In my expereince the novelty of watching a train, of any quality, go round and round on a small loop of track wears off very quickly on little kids. (Ages 4-12) Trains at this level will not hold a kids interest for very long. Only if an interested adult gets involved is this liekly to develop much more.

So my hypothesis is that cheap sets serve a purpose as toys given to kids. The very nature of a simple loop of track will not hold any childs attention for very long, unless someone gets involved to make it more interesting, since there is little or nothing to stimulate a kids imagination. There is way too much stuff to capture the imagination of a child today, compared to my childhood in the 60's. My bet is that most cheap sets are more than adequately made for the limited amount of use they will ever get. How many Harry Potter sets do you imagine were sold and sit unused in boxes after a few outings? I suspect the vast majority of them. Some other influence, be it an older modeller, a dad that gets involved and makes it more interesting, is what moves an individual beyond the simple toy set.

[on30francisco]

Luckily I entered this hobby with Lionel equipment that my uncle gave me in the early 60s. Although it was tinplate and not to scale, It was very reliable , ran great, was sturdily built and I got a lot of enjoyment with it. In the late 60s I wanted to get into HO scale and thus bought HO supplies from AHM, Tyco, Bachmann, Lifelike, and other companies. All the track had brass rail, the flextrack had brass rail stapled to fiber ties, the locos had four-wheel pickup and deep flanges and the rolling stock had truck mounted horn-hook couplers that worked when they wanted to. I set up a layout and it never operated properly. Compared to the Lionel set this equipment was very poorly made. To me it was the sorriest bunch of junk I had ever worked with. I got extremely frustrated with it and threw the loco against the wall. After that I gave up the hobby for around a year. I re-entered the hobby later when I learned about the quality products that were available such as Atlas NS track and locomotives, Athern and MDC rolling stock , and MRC power packs. I believe those cheap, low quality train sets and components with their brass track and poorly made locos (I don't know if they're still available) did a lot to discourage a lot of potential model railroaders from staying in the hobby.

[jrbernier]

I posed this question to a Life-Like rep a few years ago at the National Train Show. My point was that Life-Like should dump all of the train set junk and spend their resources on the P2K line. He explained that the P2K line was really a small part of the overall train line, and most of the profits came from those 'junk' train sets. No company is going to drop a sure revenue stream just to be up-scale. Those junky train sets help pay for the design/manufacturer of our P2K stuff!
Now, I would love to see at least a P1K quality train set line, and maybe over time that will happen. If Bachmann or Life-Like were to dump the cheap train sets, I am sure a 'no-name' line of train sets would appear anyway. At least Bachmann and Life-Like have come out with the Spectrum/P2K lines - That is at least an improvement over what they sold 20 years ago!

Jim Bernier

[areibel]

That's interesting, I had always assumed that the "starter" sets were like loss leaders, basically something to get someone interested and lead them to the higher quality stuff. I can remember a couple discussions on an S scale list where they were lamenting why there isn't a inexpensive starter set available.
I personally had pretty good luck with my old Tyco stuff from the early 70's. I still have a couple of the original locos (that still run despite my best efforts to "fix" them back then). I quickly dismissed AHM, bought some Athern, Roundhouse, etc. and had fun!

[Anonymous]

Those crappy trainset locos were all I could afford at the time.
Not being one that gives up easily I learned to design and build my own drives.
Granted, some of the first ones weren't much better, but it led to years of enjoyment.
When I couldn't afford a turnout I hand laid one.
I understand that not everyone has this kind of determination and patience.
It would be nice of the manufacturers to raise the quality of the starter sets so as not to discourage people, but you know as well as I that as long as they can sell them as they are , they will keep producing them as they are.
I also think the Manufacturers see these sets as a disposable toy.
Buy one for a child at X-mas and throw it away by easter when the thrill has wore off.
If it lasts that long, due to Johny's destructive nature or from jamming it all in a shoe box and tossing it in the closet.

[krump]

can't kick a gift horse, or something like that...

my intro to trains was a starter HO set (that I still have, circa 1973?)... my parents also bought my brother an N scale... we were thrilled with these Christmas gifts and knew that my parents, with a modest single income, had saved up particularly for these items. I loved the trains and was hooked right from the start. (my brother discontinued his involvement within the year, and went into the rockets - no longer busy with that either)

yes, my starter set was a "crappy" one, but I loved it, it served the purpose - basic intro to the hobby, brass track, no frills, however I recall that my dad and I had it running within the hour. Great memory! I still have the train...

I believe that the companies make a basic starter set for even the leanest of (crappy) budgets - to get your attention, give you the idea and the dream about a product (any product?)... it is not their intent to satisfy all of your ambition with that one purchase, but this "low end lost leader" if you will, hopefully leads to more purchases, additional accessories, etc - just gets you hungry for more. The same goes for most other products: other hobby items, scrapbooking, tools, automobiles, boats, houses...
how many starter homes are actually considered to be the first time buyers dream home, more likely something that got the buyer into the housing market... that's the way I consider the starter sets... and the cheap tools ( for example, I might need a rotary tool, but do I need to necessarily buy a dremel?) etc. You get what you pay for - as a novice model railroader the starter set might be fine, as a Master Model Railroader (my ambition) I may want something a bit more advanced.

cheers

Krump

[rexhea]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jacktal

I did worse!!!I have a fine roster of locos,mostly new Kato's and Atlas's,plus a few nicely running Bachmann's and Life-Like's,but went for cheap trackwork.Atlas tracks are not bad but their turnouts are giving me all sorts of problems.I model "N" scale.

Jacktal,
I agree with you about Atlas turnouts (HO). The first thing I wanted to put down on my layout was my yard so I would have a place for my rolling stock as I bought them. I used #4 Atlas turnouts. Bad mistake!

After I got the yard in place and ballasted I was very proud of myself for achieving such an engineering task. But then, I ran a 4-8-2 light mountain straight through the ladder. The pilots de-railed and the loco looked like a snake slithering through the grass. Putting the Eyeball on the ladder, I saw why. The rails were warped in all directions on every turnout I had installed plus the ones still in the package.

This was a lesson about MR quality learned the hard way. It was very disappointing and made me question my decision about selecting MR for a hobby. But, I got over it and now research product lines more thoroughly and do a very careful mechanical and electrical inspection of everything before installing or using. (I have now switched to Shinohara turnouts. So far, so good.)

I do not believe this is something a consumer should have to do. The Model Railroading Industry should adopt a quality control program such as a variation of ISO9000 that insures the Chinese bolt matches the Korean's nut that matches the USA's specifications.

(In all fairness to Atlas, I had no problem with #6 turnouts and have had great success with their code 83 flex track)

[Roadtrp]

My first two locomotives were 'N' scale Life Like standard product. I have run each of them about a half hour a day most days, and they are still running fine 9 months later.

My third locomotive was a Kato. Was it better than the Life Like? Absolutely! There is no comparison in detail or smoothness of operation. It also cost over twice as much.

Will I buy Kato again? Yes.
Will I buy Life Like standard product again? Yes.

They each fill different needs. If I waited until I could afford a fleet of Katos, I'd never get one. In the meantime, I can enjoy the quality of an occasional Kato waiting for the day when my Life Like stuff can all be replaced with higher quality product. I think sometimes you guys forget just how much money it takes to initially get a layout established. Once you've done that, it is far easier to upgrade your fleet to a higher quality product.

[Leon Silverman]

Many of the comments here center around crappy train sets purchased from toy store chains. Take heart, if a crappy train set is purchased today, it will be from a LHS. Toys-R-US and KB Toys sell neither train sets nor models of any kind (planes, ships, or cars). I needed some plastic cement and tried to purchase it from Toys-R-Us when I was at a mall and was informed that they had no plastic cemment because they no longer sell any model kits at all. I walked into a KB Toy store and noticed the same situation.

[BRAKIE]

Thankfully my Dad was a model railroader and got me started on the right foot.
However I do have a old MP RS11 that my late wife got me back in 77.This maybe crap to some but it still runs 27 years later..Of course I no longer use this engine.How many recall those smooth running MP Shark nose units?
Now,to answer your question..I feel many of todays modelers got their start with a cheap set so in my opinion I really don't think the el cheapos hurt the hobby in the long run( you returned right?)..After all you are talking about what most muggles(non modeling folk) calls toy trains for Junior to play with..Your idea of a high dollar highly detail train set will not sit well with muggles due to the price..You see its a toy to them and therefore shouldn't cost that much.

[simon1966]

The most likely place to get a cheap trainset now is the rather poor Model RR aisle at Hobby Lobby!

[BRAKIE]

Simon,I know of one Toys "R" Us that carries train sets..Of course its usually around Christmas time.

[cwclark]

A lot of my earlier stuff was tyco and bachmann which was about as bad as it gets in those days...i never did quit the hobby..(well except for that 4 year hitch in the Navy ..they wouldn't let us do layouts on the ship ) but being the hardheaded person that everybody says i am ..(I call it persistant)...I eventually found that there was better stuff out there than what i was running on my new layout...roundhouse and athearn were what kept me going and i got rid of the other stuff...never give up on something you dearly love!...Chuck[:D]

[Anonymous]

As a hobby shop owner, I get folks coming in with a non working junk train set they bought from (fill in the blanks) discount store, usually near the holidays. I will demonstrate the difference between what they bought and what I carry and almost always make a sale. It is a shame how awful some of this stuff is.
Most serious model train hobby shops will not carry any of these junky products.
Steve Bovee
owner
Reed's Hobby Shop
La Mesa
California

[Anonymous]

The first US N-scale locos we bought were a couple of MP/Mehano GP40s, and yes, they were awful! Luckily at around the same time a Bachmann U36B was bought - this is still a superb slow runner, even if the factory paintwork is a little over-colourful (psychadelic version of Rock Island blue/white!).

I suspect the Baldwin Sharks mentioned in a previous post were made by Roco - Roco certainly made Sharks and FP7s in HO for E R Models, these are excellent locos (I have one of the FP7s and intend to buy one of the Sharks when I can afford it).

[Anonymous]

Steve,

What a surprise it was to see your post here. When I was stationed in 29 Palms (1991-1994) I used to look for any excuse to get down to San Diego as I always made a stop at Reeds! Reading your post brought back lots of great memories. Hope business is going well, you certainly always had lots of customers when I was there.

Dave

[CP5415]

My parents gave me a Model Power set back in the late 70's. I was 10 or 11 at the time.
These were great as they took the abuse until the motors died.
If they got dropped on the floor they kept on running.
The effects from these cheapies didn't keep me from the hobby, other interests did.
When I did return to the hobby, by joining a club, information from several guys did tell me to stay away from Model Power, Bachamn & Life-Like except the Proto/Spectrum series.

Gordon

[willy6]

Please help me with my memory, Didn't the company AURORA, they makers of HO scale race cars ccome out with a train set called the Postage Stamp Train Set that was the forerunner of "N" scale?I think it was late 60's or early 70's.

[cjcrescent]

Willy6;
Aurora did import N scale trains originally under the Postage Stamp Trains label. These were made in Germany by Trix. Still have a set in the original box. Can't comment on the quality as I am not an N scaler.

[willy6]

Cjcrescent,
was my time frame right about it's production, and what happen to Aurora?I would assume they got bought out.

[Anonymous]

Willy,
Your right. Aurora started importing the F9 (actually an F7) in 1967.
In 1972 Minitrix were imported by model Power. They were imported up until 1999.
Those Aurora and Minitrix locos were decent runners in there day, compared to what was on the market then.
I just finished reworking a pair of Minitrix F-units.
http://www.the-gauge.com/showthread.php?t=10943