Today I hooked my mining camp to the main line. I used a Atlas number 8 turn out. ( it is the biggest I could buy from LHS but I might be wrong on the number) F-3, F-7, Dash 9, SD -7 and a GE AC 6000 will run forward and back wards with out a hitch. Ran the PCM Big Boy into the turn out with out a hitch, backing up, tender derailed.
Before you say it is this new section, all the steam power has problems with all the turnouts on the bench. Well I should not say ever turnout or every engine, but 90% of the time there is a derail.
I use to think it was because of the tender was lacking weight. I have not check the PCM tender to make sure it is with in NMRA standers. But it is die cast so it has some weight to it.
Turns out are fine with Diesel's, inc GE AC 6000, RSD 15, SD 50's, Dash 9's, E-6 and E-7's backing up, so I think it is either the tender or draw bar problem.
My steam power are BLI's Class J, Hudson, M1-a, Heavy Mike, PCM Y6-b and the Big Boy.
Thank you for the coming answers!
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Ken,I really don't know what to tell you..I seen those same engines make reverse moves through #6 switches at the one of the HO clubs..
Could be a number of things.Wheels or track is out of gauge by being a tad to wide or to narrow.Tender trucks doesn't have enough movement.Not enough "float"-up and down movement.
I wish you live in the area..I would be more then happy to come and find and help fix your problems.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
i also have bli steam power. what i foundis the frogs or points are causing the problems, this also happerns some my diesels too of which are kato"s i found the switches to be out of gauge or points are to hi low right out of the package .atlas has some real qaultiy issues here and will not address them.
I used to model the UP Cheyenne division on my old layout and of course had to have a slew of Big Boys and Challengers. Well only 3 BB and 1 Challenger but to the point. I used to make moves through #6 and #6' all the time. I learned the hard way that Steam Engines don't like #4 turnouts but the rest were ok. I would start by checking to see if the tender wheels are in gauge and even before doing that get down eye level with the turnout and give it a good eyeball. If you don't have any problems backing it through any other turnouts I say it safe to say it's not the tender, drawbar or the wheels being out of gauge etc. This may sound silly but just a thought, check the trip pin height on the tender coupler. I had either a Heavy Mountain I or a 2-10-2 Santa Fe that had the trip pin on the tender coupler hanging a tad low. on the forward movement it would pass right through the frog but reverse it and derail city.
Get out the old NMRA gauge and check the pints frogs etc. maybe a little bit of filing is needed.
When the tender is being towed, it is that much further away from the rear of the cab, including the bridge plate. There is some slack in the drawbar and pin. I wonder if during the reversing move the front of the tender is being held back from letting the leading edge (the rear) of the tender move in azimuth...laterally. But I would wonder first about gauge in the leading axle or two and also weight distribution.
-Crandell
Would you like another set of eyes to look at your problem. I live in the
Belleville area.
In my opinion, most current steam loco tenders are too light. Combine that with the thick, and often stiff, bundle of wires connecting tender to loco and you have a derailment looking for a place to happen.
Wayne
Ken,
I would have to agree with Wayne. I had a similar problem with a Proto 2000 0-8-0 switcher navigating backwards through a Atlas #4.5 turnout. It was fine running forwards but, in reverse - it kept picking the frog. As soon as I applied even slight pressure to the top of the tender - the problem went away.
And the problem ultimately vanished altogether once I switched over to #4.5 & #5 Fast Tracks turnouts. No problems whatsoever backing through them.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'm going to agree with the drawbar and "flat-and-level" ideas. I've had drawbar problems with both of my steamers, and the issues show up mostly on turnouts. Steam generally is more fussy about trackwork because the long driver wheelbase is fixed to the engine, so it doesn't "roll" like diesel trucks do. So, not only does the turnout need to be flat, but the approach tracks on either side need to be flat and in the same plane as the turnout. The longer the steamer, the longer this flat stretch must be for reliable operation.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
If the drawbar has two holes - one to allow the engine to do tight curves, one for closer connecting - put it in the hole that allows more space and see if that helps. I have a couple of engines that should be able to go thru my 30"R curves and No.6 turnouts close-connected but in reality can't, but do fine when farther apart.
I would agree with checking the coupler trip-pin hanging down below the coupler on the rear of the tender. If it's too low, it would ride up and over rails when going forward but could easily catch going back. I'd doublecheck for anything else hanging down, like a water scoop etc.
For some reason I knew you folks where going to say it was the turnouts. Just seems odd to me only tenders have the derailment problem? I can back up 50 plus foot rolling stock but not tenders? Guess the rolling stock wheels just have more travel than the tenders.
UPFEFWould you like another set of eyes to look at your problem.
Sure, would love to meet you, so far only person I have meet on line that lives close by is Simon 1966 and he has been a God Send when I was eating decoders. PM me and we can talk, with you living in Belleville more than likely you know of K-10 Model Trains. I live with in two miles of his shop. Do you by chances live on Frank Scott Express Way?
My biggest weak link is turnouts. I have never really understood the names of the parts and how to use the NMRA Gauge to check them.
I will grab a couple of tenders, check the wheels and try some extra weight.
Thanks for all your time and answers.
Ken
Lots of good advice here, and I will add and repeat the tender weight issue.
I don't have many of the locos you listed, and I have not has issues with the few BLI/PCM pieces I have.
But I have a lot of Bachmann Spectrum and Proto and ALL the tenders are too light. Further more it is my view that tenders should be weighted to about twice what you would weight a similar sized car. BECAUSE, the drawbar exerts more side pressure than the normal coupler set up. Especially on locos with long fireboxes and lot of rear overhang like a Big Boy. This, combined with the wires, and the centipede tender design, are all formulas for failure on our compressed model trackage.
This is why here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL curves are 36", turnouts #6 and #8's, rigid loco wheelbase is limited to 18 scale feet and no centipede tenders. I back 40 car trains through #6's all the time, no problem.
5-8 oz is a good range for tender weights depending on tender length. Remember this extra weight is only equal to one car so its effect on pulling power is only that, one car.
Sheldon
An added bonus of putting more weight in tenders is improved electrical contact from the tender, unless, of course, your tender is mostly filled with a speaker. In that case, at least it'll sound good as it's busy derailing.
Ken:
It could be a combination of things, as the other posters have mentioned, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is also a problem with all of the wiring between the loco and tender.
Reason I say so, is that I have #5's in my yard, (Sinohara and Peco) and to get to my engine terminal, I have to back my big steam through them, often tender first. I have no problem at all with my brass locos, even the Yellowstones with the Centipede tenders, but if I happen to be running one of my BLI's (which frankly I don't, much, anymore) I can just about guarantee that unless all of that wiring between the loco and tender is in check, the tender is just going to lift off and go wherever it wants, no matter which way the points are thrown.
It helps if the wires from loco to tender have a lot of slack in them. At least that's the cure I found.
Also, you might try filing the points down on the Atlas a little. I used to use Atlas on my older layout, and I found out that if I didn't file the points down against the stock rail, the wheels picked the points like crazy.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Thanks again for all the ideas. I will weight the Mikes tender and try some weight and post what happens.
Besides adding weight (and checking the rear coupler) you might check the apron too. The apron that is attached to the rear of the engine cab, and sits on the front of the tender, can sometimes get stuck under the "lip" of the front of the tender and cause derailments. If your engine has the apron, I find it works best to raise it up and put the engine on the tracks, and then once all the wheels are on, use a pencil or a screwdriver to reach between the cab and the tender and lower the apron.
I have a slew of BLI steam including 2 each of 4-6-2, 4-8-2, and 2-10-0, plus half a dozen 2-8-2s and a P2K 2-8-8-2. I run them all through snap switches in my yards, and custom line #6s on the main. The 2-10-0s need to go slow through the snaps, and the 4-8-2s with the long tenders need to go real slow backing through them, but they work with only a very occasional derailment.
I might add that most of these switches only have one spike, to keep the ground throw from moving the whole switch, and some don't have any spikes at all. (I'm still in "proof of concept" mode)
I did have an MDC 2-8-0 that wouldn't back through a snap without climbing the rail and an Athern 2-8-2 that shorted every time it took the diverging route. I also had a Bowser that would derailthe trailing loco truckbacking through a switch. Fixed that by adding a spring.
Oddly, I had more trouble with the #6 CLs than the snap switches. It seems the frog casting on a large number of them sat too high in relation to the tops of the rails. This didn't cause derailing, but did cause the wheels on that side to lose pickup because they were being suspended above the rail. I ended up taking a large mill file and draw filing the frog down to the rail head height. Gave it a shiny surface too. Now they work great.
I'd check your coupler pin, I've had this happen on freight cars, but not BLI steam, and your tender wheel gauge. A previous post mentioned applying pressure. That could force slightly wide wheels down on to the rail. The wire idea is not bad either. That's been somewhat of a pain for me.
I recently acquired a BLI NYC 4-8-4 with a centipede tender. Next time I'm in that room, I'll back it through a few switches and let youknow what happens.
Just got out of the train room.
Here are some notes/questions/findings,but first,aword about the test envirnment.
My subject is a BLI NYC 4-8-4 Niagara. It is the pre-production prototype purchased at the BLI rummage sale. I figured if any centipede tender will demonstarte a problem, this will be it.
My test area is my main yard,which has Atlas Customline #6 back to back (-edit- nose to nose?) as crossovers tothe A/D tracks, then a ladder of 5 snap switches. At the other end, there's another ladder of snaps with a switch lead,and another setof CL #6,but the ladder keeps going toconnect with the other main.
I started the test by going forward,then backward through one set of #6s. This worked well.
Then I went to the other end,and then backed through the 6s into the ladder,and POW,off the rails.
Then I tried pulling ontothe switch lead instead of going through the crossover,which causes an S curve intothe ladder. Off the rails again.
This was travelling at the factory speed setting and a speedof 4 or 5 on a PA.
When I started slowing down and looking closer,I observed the following:
The drawbar on my modelis fixed,there are no alternate holes for distance adjustment. It is plastic and clicks onto a round peg through a slotin the tender.
Moving through even a medium radius curve,the overhang is severe,causing the centerline of the tender to be about 1/2 way off axis of the loco.
My model is missing the tender apron, which allowed me to observe what may be your problem...
When backing, and turning, the nose of the tender is pushed off axis, and gets trapped on the inside of the apron hinge eye. When the coupled unit attepmts to straighten out,it can't becauseof the trapped corner. This then lifts the wheels on that side of the tender, and then pushes them over the rail.
Take a close look in this area, and see if this is what is happening.
Also, how close is the nearest curve ahead of the switch you are backing through? Is the frontof the loco stillon the curve?
I don't know what can be done about this,but at least hopefully it's a starting point.
As I said before,noe ofmy others dothis,but none have a centipede tender, although I think the problem lies more with the design of the apron hinge and the drawbar.
Hope this helps.
One can have the track in gauge, trailing truck wheels in gauge and the darn thing will still pick the points or frog. You cant scale down the weight of the real trailing truck, so we use springs to give it down pressure, but to much and you take away weight from the drive wheels
I have several from bowser kit built to brass, and most all will pick a frog or set of points from time to time. I dont have issues with the tenders most of the time as they are weighted, unless I am shoving a very heavy train thru a tight turnout. Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
cudaken Today I hooked my mining camp to the main line. I used a Atlas number 8 turn out. ( it is the biggest I could buy from LHS but I might be wrong on the number) F-3, F-7, Dash 9, SD -7 and a GE AC 6000 will run forward and back wards with out a hitch. Ran the PCM Big Boy into the turn out with out a hitch, backing up, tender derailed.
It could also be that the wheels are picking the point, sometimes it seems that the broader the turnout angle, the easier it is for that to happen. Seems counter-intuitive, but I remember having a spot on my old layout (which exclusively used Walthers no. 8 turnouts) where I had derailment problems. I replaced the turnout with a no. 6, and it solved the problem.
Bump...tell us what progress you've made, if any.
The suspense is killing me.
Interesting to note that my BLI PRR and USRA engines are fine backing through snap switches, but the NYC with the centipede tender is not.
NIce car...
1966 Coronet fact 383 4BBL-A/C-Bronze (no rust) 1974 Charger fact PW-cruise-sunroof-A/C (lots of rust)