I wonder sometimes how many people who don't like sound have only heard sound thru a speaker that either wasn't properly enclosed, or enclosed / installed incorrectly?? It makes a big difference, as does getting the volume CV's set just right. I find the bell can be especially annoying if it's on for too long, so I always set that volume pretty low. The whistle or horn is usually set pretty loud, with the diesel rumble or steam chuff somewhere between the bell and whistle...loud enough to be heard clearly when it's near you, but much less distinct when it's not near you.
As most everyone knows, I am a NO for onboard sound, at least in the scale I model, HO. I have repeated my comments from that other thread (with a few additions and revisions) as to my reasons and thoughts on the subject.
I do see a future for layout based sound in smaller scales and I do think layout based locomotive sounds and other invironmental sounds can add to the effect of a model railroad, if done well. I may try some of that at some point. I do think bells, whistles and horns can add to operations for those who want to feel like the "engineer". That is not high on my goal list, but, localized layout based bell, whistle and horn sounds could easily be layout based in the areas most needed for such operation without the "noise" of the loco.
It has been proven that poorly reproduced or otherwise tinny, harsh types of noises do have a negative effect on your mood. In HiFi circles it is a known fact that one of the best measures of speaker quality is how long you can listen before becoming "tired" of listening. The many comments from modelers with sound about sometimes tiring of the sound and turning it off, is proof enough of its low sound quality.
I do think DCC is necessary for good onboard sound performance and control of features, so I do see the two as linked technologies.
I'm with list of others I know (some well known and well published) in the view that small scale onboard sound is just that, small, lacks bass, sounds like a 1963 9 transistor radio, ball bearings in the disposer, etc.
For those who like it great, I say go for it. But to my trained ears, after designing and building HI Fi speakers for years and listening to some of the best Hi Fi in the world, anything that is supposed to be real life, squalking out of two 1" speakers, is just noise. And after a few minutes, just anoying noise at that.
I will not bore anyone with speaker science, but lets just say the technology is a long way off. And I will admit, I don't own an Ipod, ear buds, or listen to music on my computer speakers, for the same reason - BAD SOUND. If you think any of that stuff plays music that sounds like music, than I'm sure HO sound systems sound just fine to you.
Rather than install sound, I've been known to remove a few. I have three BLI pieces that came with sound, gone, by-by.
I will say some of the sound I have heard in larger scales is fair to very good. Even as small as On30 the difference is amazing. But that's how sound dynamics work, it is a cube science. So what seems like a small increase in size, yield a big difference in sound.
The other issue, only a few seem to understand, is the "scale" of the viewing (hearing) distance in different scales. At 3 feet in HO I am 261' away, sounds, even loud ones are muted by invironmental factors in real life. BUT, at 3 feet in O scale, I'm only 144' away, much closer, the sound from the trains becomes the dominant noise. In large scale (pick one), I am now very close to the train by any standard, and noises coming from it are the exclusive focus of my attention.
And, going in the other direction, at 15 feet in HO, I'm now a 1/4 mile away, depending on lots of factors, I might not hear much at all.
I personally feel, that having sound in some but not all locos creates a confusing situation in the viewers mind and lessens the overall effect of the layout. So, if sound is not practical/possible in all locos, than that is another reason I would prefer not to have it. There are other "improvements" going on in our hobby about which I feel this same way, semi scale wheels and couplers being two.
So, if I was building in a large scale, I would have sound, but in HO or N, no thank you, and my ears thank you.
Sheldon
The more I read this post the more it shows me how individualized our layouts can be. Why sound because YOU like it and thats all that matters. Why light up your layout or the interior of your structures, why run under table switch machine rather then ground throws, why have stationary decoders and toggle switches on your fascia, why super detail a layout an engine or a scene, because you want to. I personally like all of the above on my layout. Lights can be turned on or off, sound can be raised or lowered or turned off but if you don't have them you no longer have the option to do so. A model railroad is an expression of your slant on reality as you want to see it, a world created by you, your way. No political correctness, no right or wrong your way or the highway. In my O/P it's all good.
PA&ERRI would start a thread where people could state their preference on whether or not they preferred sound at all
I have found the non-sound units never get run while the wheels get rolled off the sound equipped ones.
On the other hand I'll be the first one to tell people their wonderful "sound" equipped locos sound like tinny toys. There has to be some serious alteration of physics to get a HO loco to actually sound like a prototype. On the other hand if you consider what the locos would sound like to an HO scale ear drum ...Hmmm ? ? ?
Quick and dirty comparison:
N&W J loaded, on an upgrade, accelerating from a stop: Model (HO) sounds like a coughing toy poodle. The 1:1 scale version sounded like cannonfire.
I have heard several different 'sound loads,' factory and retrofit. All of them are WAY deficient in bass. Thanks to the miniature speakers, there is no way to improve with onboard equipment - it takes a big speaker to produce big bass.
So my steamers will continue to be the silent service. OTOH, my catenary motors don't need sound. Thanks to BIG open-frame motors and metal gears, they already have it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Out of about 250 diesels, maybe 15 have sound. I really don't plan to add any more. Just doesn't do it for me.
Bob
My reason for having sound is also influenced by a certain little one's fear of horns and such. Anything beeps at him in my layout room sends him flying!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
No sound for me, thanks. After almost 40 years working in a steel mill, I don't care how realistic the sound may be - to me it's just more noise. And I'm not suffering from damaged hearing either - I just prefer no extraneous noise.
This sound-equipped loco did have realistic sound, but even when blowing the horn within the confines of the "layout room" shown, the sound wasn't especially distinct above the general cacophony.
Wayne
I have a few noise makers. Some Broadway Steam. A few Atlas Diesels. Most are just not worth the trouble so I buy engines I can install my own decoders in and skip the noice altogether. I have better look hardwiring everything to my own standards with my own decoders.
Andy
G Paine BRAKIEAlso at one club we had 2 guys that insisted using the proper horn signals while switching the yard or passenger terminal..We put a stop to that-even guys that used sound had enough of that constant horn blowing. I saw an ad in the latest MR for a new sound equipped loco that will automatically blow the "correct" horn signals then the loco moves foreward, backward of stops.
BRAKIEAlso at one club we had 2 guys that insisted using the proper horn signals while switching the yard or passenger terminal..We put a stop to that-even guys that used sound had enough of that constant horn blowing.
I saw an ad in the latest MR for a new sound equipped loco that will automatically blow the "correct" horn signals then the loco moves foreward, backward of stops.
OH My!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I enjoy having sound. I think it adds a new dimension of realism, and it's really cool having a lash-up of big diesels when they all have sound/dcc.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
While I have some HO-scale sound units, I'm not a big fan. I'm still debating with myself on whether it should be classified as a gimmick, such as smoke units, exploding box cars, and flagmen shooting out of their shelters. I'm not inviting an argument here. This is entirely subjective, and I'm not attacking anyone else's definition of gimmickery.
The sound isn't very satisfying to me, primarily because of the inadequate bass tones and engine sounds inconsistent with the level of work being performed. On the other hand, whistle/horn and bell sounds can be useful when duplicating signaling. But even that gets quite annoying if it is anywhere near continuous.
Sound can be particular annoying when there are several locomotives and their operators in close proximity. I find cacophony unpleasant.
Unless I'm "up close and personal," the only significant prototype sounds that register are distant horn (and I suppose whistle if steam operated here and now) and train rumble sounds. As far as I'm aware, train rumble isn't available ... and rumble, by the way, includes those unavailable/unsatisfying bass sounds.
Mark
selector As to sound, it is like the answer the Anglican priest gave to the woman who asked if parishioners should kneel when they pray. "All may, some should, none must."
As to sound, it is like the answer the Anglican priest gave to the woman who asked if parishioners should kneel when they pray. "All may, some should, none must."
Crandell: I LOVE that explanation, LOL!
In my case, I run DC. So for me, equipping locos for sound simply takes up too much voltage to control their low speeds with any accuracy, since they won't even start up until I'm in the upper 1/3 quadrant of my Controlmaster 20.
My answer: I equipped the LAYOUT for sound (Soundtraxx Heritage Steam system), not the individual locos. Under the layout speakers that are relatively 'directional'. Now the sound doesn't 'follow' the loco around the layout, but just gives the general impression that the loco is working. It's a pretty good system and versatile enough to program whatever loco sounds I choose when I want them. And the sound from the speakers is hardly tinny--I can shake the walls if I so choose, LOL!
Generic? Yes. But it also has an "On-Off" switch that I can use when I prefer not to have sound. And I don't choose to have sound all of the time. But I can program in all of the steam loco sounds I want to my hearts content using button combinations on the Soundtraxx controller.
It serves my particular needs and is a lot of fun to play around with.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I have 59 locomotives, 32 with sound. Of the sound units, 20 came from the factory, I have upgraded 12 and have about 10 more that I plan to upgrade. Anything new I purchase (except Katos, which I upgrade myself) I buy with sound (no Athearn purchases for quite some time). Anyway, I agree it is a personal preference and not all sound is equal. The quality depends upon the decoder, the sound recording itself, the speaker and enclosure. With a little work I've been able to get decent sound on all of my units but some are obviously betetr than others. I do prefer decoders that allow you to download sound files.
As for the price, I'd say $500 is a bit high. The most I have ever paid for a factory installed unit is $230 and for the ones I've upgraded myself, the cost is slightly less. I'd plan on $100 or so to be the average upgrade cost if you include the decoder, the speaker and enclosure costs (assuming a full sound, light and motor decoder).
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
There's no question. How can you give the proper signals, whistle, bell? You need sound for your op sessions.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
selector As to sound, it is like the answer the Anglican priest gave to the woman who asked if parishioners should kneel when they pray. "All may, some should, none must." The hobby is nearly boundless. If you knock for admittance, you will be granted it and will find there-in numerous rooms. Each room offers something. Find the one that appeals to you the most.
The hobby is nearly boundless. If you knock for admittance, you will be granted it and will find there-in numerous rooms. Each room offers something. Find the one that appeals to you the most.
What the hobby needs is a Miniatureferroequinologist Czar -- Czar is a word achieving a certain measure of prominence here south of your border of late -- who will establish rules and regulations for this hobby; it will be monitored by a carefully trained police force who will insure compliance with accepted standards. This is badly needed and I have submitted my resume for the position of Czar of the Agency for Model Railroad Compliance . . . . . . . . . . I will agree to accept this awesome responsibility as long as it comes with some sort of regal headgear. All (model) railroads should meet the absolute standards I have set for my own. Surely you will agree with this modest proposal. Of course when a new Czar is appointed it means that every model railroad in existence will need to be examined to insure it meets the incoming Czar's criteria for compliance with his new standards. Those that fail to measure up will be mandated to be either modified or destroyed; these actions will surely promote the hobby and insure its growth into the 22nd Century.
Now, let me get my tongue out of my cheek.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I enjoy sound with HO scale to the point that all my locos have sound. It adds a new level of fun to the hobby. I usually turn my engine's sound up pretty high. To avoid distortion or reverb I usually line the inside of the tender or body shell to stop vibrations and rattles with electrical tape. I have noticed some factory installs they did the same thing. The best sounding engines are those with a large baffle for the speaker. I have noticed they have a real deep throaty sound which is better to me. I enjoy sound and would not have it any other way.
I like sound. In S it sounds better than the smaller scales. Of course in G it is awesome. After running one of my sound equipped engines, the non sound ones "sound" strange.
Enjoy
Paul
selectorEvery locomotive sold with sound should have a small piece of paper slipped as the last thing into the box. It should say, "Prepare to be dismayed!" And then, in small print, it should add, "Please learn how to reduce the master volume setting to about 40-50% of its maximum value, and do it quickly. You will enjoy your new sound-equipped engine greatly once you complete this important first step."
I agree!! I tried to run them at first with the volume ---UP---then discovered that there is a lot of distortion at that volume!! Welcome to the land of tinny speakers!!
I suggest to some to go and experiment with different speakers---then they usually have a few around with low volumes-----seems more reasonable----
I don't for several reasons:
1. I'm in N scale. Expensive, and seriously, a tiny speaker crammed into an Atlas 4 axle loco (pretty much all I run are 4 axle locos from Atlas) isn't in my interest, and probably doesn't provide the best quality anyways.
2. Do I really care about how much realism it adds? I'm 14, personally, I prefer to operate without a sound-equipped loco. Usually I'll have a band like Underoath, The devil Wears Prada, Demon Hunter, Relient K, Hawk Nelson, Tobymac, or a plethora of others playing, sound from a loco would only get in the way.
3. Cost. Do I really want to pay for both a sound-equipped decoder and also to get the frame of my loco milled? I'd rather just buy the straight DC version (I don't have DCC yet) and later on (when I get DCC) add a decoder.
4. For myself, the only realism I care about is taking realistic pictures and building something that looks realistic. Someday I may purchase an MRC Symphony 77 in case I ever do want to operate with sound, but that level of realism won't increase my enjoyment of an ops session.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Of course, sound is subjective to the individual's likes/dislikes. For something to consider, here's my preference and reason. I like sound , turned down so that I hear at a scale 1,000 feet what I would expect to hear from the protoype at 1,000 feet. This way just myself following the train, and only those immediately adjacent can really hear it, so it is not annoying to everyone in the room! The reason I do this is that it helps me to operate realistically which is my real desire. Once one has truly worked a train with sound you will find that "silent running" just isn't the same! Using proper horn signals and minimal bell when beginning to move, say 4 or 5 dings at most, adds to the realism that we are all striving to emulate. Learn and enjoy. John
Just a quick note here...
I'm not trying to convert anybody to any particular viewpoint. Nor am I trying to Balkanize us into "sound" vs "non-sound" camps. I just thought it would be interesting to hear people state whether or not they use/like sound equipped locos and why.
This is not a test - and even if it were, there is no "right" answer!
-Kosmo
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Hi!
I've got a fairly large HO loco collection with 6 out of about 55 units with DCC sound. Although I just got into DCC early in the year, I have formed some pretty solid opinions.....
- Sound is expensive. Sound locos typically require a higher start-up power. Sound can get overpowering or even tiresome, especially if the layout is in an enclosed room (as mine is).
On the other hand.......
- Decent sound (as with my BLI locos) is awesome and adds a new dimension to the hobby. With DCC (I have Digitrax), you can mute the sound on a given loco - or set it on a siding that has power running through a toggle switch.
After several months use, I wish all my locos had sound. Practically speaking, that ain't gonna happen ($$$$$), but I will install sound in a few "B" units of my ABBA consists.
For what its worth....
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I was watching a video the other day at about 1:00am of Chuck Hitchcock's new Argentine Division, where he was discussing his new found love for sound locomotives. He was explaining how you just have to find the right volume or I would call it the "Sweet Spot". Granted your right in saying the sound of a bunch of locomotives idling in a yard with all the bells and other noises would be enough to dive you batty. Heck one engine with it's bell going after a while makes me nuts but put four or five operators or friends in the same room and watch the sound go away. We all make the same mistake where we put the sound up to full volume right out of the gate because it sounds so cool and it's new etc. but after a while we're in there changing Cv' values and toning down the sound to tolerable levels. I only have about 10 or so of my roster now equipped with sound and there isn't one with the default sound volume setting. As mentioned fine the right balance and sound is great.
BRAKIEOn the other hand I love hearing the sound of a idling GP7/9 parked by the yard office with the cab door open.
Me too but only in 1/1 scale.......
I have not gotten into sound as I have yet to hear HO steam sound right on a model. That probably comes from being a musician for the last 48 years. That said I have heard some O scale that sounds fairly good. Yes the size and placement of the speaker is a critical factor. A one inch or 1.5 inch speaker cannot come close to producing the bass volume that would be necessary for realistic sound.
Since I am also severely hearing impaired, the last thing I need is a lot of sound on my layout..... That said, I am considering a sound system that is not "on board" for the layout some time in the future. Something that could have some real possibilities would be a "personal" listening devise similar to the in the ear monitors available to musicians. That could provide a very high quality sound to the individual(s) running a particular loco or consist and not drive everyone else crazy.... Naw, that would take all the fun out of it.... Kinda like smoke units. No fun at all unless it causes a few people to have an asthma attack....
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Who could argue that the sound in HO engines is anything remotely like what you hear from trackside? All those tiny systems can do is provide a tinny illusion. For some, that is hardly enough, and for many, entirely unacceptable. For me, I can live with it and enjoy it for what it is.
I can't enjoy it when four or more engines are competing for my attention anywhere within 10 feet of me. So, I mute to less than 30% (some of the steamers are at "zero" when muted because the injector sounds drive me crazy) all but two engines on the layout. That way, I can distinguish their individual sounds and appreciate them. I'll leave the 'symphony' for my CD's, thanks. Berlin Philharmonic under von Karajan or QSI under styrene.....wait, don't tell me....I'll get it.....
Every locomotive sold with sound should have a small piece of paper slipped as the last thing into the box. It should say, "Prepare to be dismayed!" And then, in small print, it should add, "Please learn how to reduce the master volume setting to about 40-50% of its maximum value, and do it quickly. You will enjoy your new sound-equipped engine greatly once you complete this important first step."
-Crandell
Kosmo,First I to was caught up with sound and even went DCC so I could use all the frills sound had to offer.
However,I agree that sound does get annoying and some sounds more like white noise then a real locomotive.In fact after 30-45 minutes I am ready for some aspirin.
Time and again I have seen sound equipped locomotives stall and had to go through the start procedure before the engine would move.I find that annoying.
Also at one club we had 2 guys that insisted using the proper horn signals while switching the yard or passenger terminal..We put a stop to that-even guys that used sound had enough of that constant horn blowing.
On the other hand I love hearing the sound of a idling GP7/9 parked by the yard office with the cab door open.
I have 2 sound equipped locos, one factory and one I installed. I would like to have a few more, but the additional cost of sound decoders is slowing me down. I have more than a dozen locomotives that still need decoders.
I have approximately about a 3 sound to 10 non sound mix here. I think the volume would be more of an issue in that people have a tendency to turn the volume up--in my N scale RS's that would be nuts. I keep the volume down so that the locomotives sound more believable. And I do find there is a huge difference between speakers---which makes one do the research that is for sure.