New Haven EP-4 for less then 100 dollars? - YES

[Supermicha]

Frateschi (www.frateschi.com.br), a model railroad manufacturer from brazil, has released the General Electric V-8 Locomotive, a twin of the EP-4 electric, delivered for the New Haven, in HO Scale. The model sells for less than 100 dollars and is a good base for converting in to a New Haven engine. I have just ordered one...

[AntonioFP45]

NIce looking picture!

Now for the LOADED question: How is the quality of this unit?
Does it use a motor in the center with flywheels with driveshafts going to the trucks? Or does it use a single "truck motor". Find out before you purchase it.

If it's one of those good looking models with a poor drivetrain, I would not mind repowering it with a Mashima motor. The old Pemco GGI fell into this category.

Let us know what you find out. I am interested in locomotives for my New Haven commuter coaches. I'm already planning on purchasing the New Haven EP5 plastic model from Branford, Hobbies in Connecticut (due Sept/Oct 2004)

Thanks for the news! Cheers!

[Anonymous]

Is that same manufacturer that makes Baldwin Sharks in HO & N for ER Models ? Is it of their own manufacturer or is it a rehash of someone elses - that's not to infer that it is necessarily bad- just looking for its roots?

[Supermicha]

The E-R Shark Noses were made by Roco.

I think the Engine is not the best quality, what can you get for 83 Euro? You can´t find seperate grab irons and the fans are not of the see through type, but overall, it should be a good base model for projects...

[AntonioFP45]

Looking at the webshot, the body might be lacking in solid details but nothing that a typical modeler couldn't handle with: detailing parts, an exacto knife set, drill bits, and an airbrush. Throw in DCC and some LEDs and you have a potential winner!

Anyone know some history of the New Haven EP4? From a distance the body reminds me of the "LIttle Joe" styling. Were any painted into the red, white, and black "McGinnis" paint scheme?

Did any survive into the Penn Central and Conrail mergers?

Thanks!

[M636C]

Antonio

As far as I know the only New Haven electric locomotives painted in McGinnis colours were the EP5s, and the ex-Virginian units (if they count as Mc Ginnis colours).

Mc Ginnis was against the electrification, hence he bought the FL9s and either he or his immediate successors closed the electrification down, at least as far as locomotives were concerned. I think they had to keep the multiple units running all the time until the MTA took them over.

I think only the EP5s were restored to traffic, with the Ex Virginian units purchased at that time, and only these ran for Penn Central and Conrail.

The Brazilian electrics had bar framed trucks rather than cast steel trucks on the EP4s, partly because they were broad gauge (5'3" in Brazil, I think, although 5'6" in Argentina!), and the existing standard gauge designs couldn't be easily adapted. On the other hand, the EP4 trucks were very similar to GG1 trucks, and that might give you a source of correct trucks allowing you to repower at the same time.

I have two Frateschi locomotives an EMD G12 and A GE U26C, both in New Zealand colours. They have can motors and run reasonably, but the finish of the chassis is quite rough, and these older models have fairly simple mouldings. I haven't seen the electric unit.

Peter

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks Peter (M636C)[;)]

Appreciate the info on the truck side frames and the history. I forgot to ask, that even if these units didn't make it into the McGinnis paint scheme, were they still running in the 1960s?

I'm going to plan on getting one of these. Some modeling challenges can be fun and if the paint finish is on the "rough side" then the 91% "Alcohol tub" will be waiting for it.

As for the trucks and the rest of the power plant, I'll have to check it out throroughly. I can always get quality aftermarket trucks and adapt the side frames from old Pemco or AHM GG1s, which can be found at swap meets here in Florida at low prices.[:)][:D][8D]

Thanks again!

[M636C]

Antonio,

One of the first copies of "Trains" I ever bought, in the early to mid 1960s, referred to New Haven restoring the EP5s, and the article included a photo of an EP4 nose to nose with a Baldwin RP-210 Diesel Hydraulic, and the D P Morgan caption read "the tried and the true await their fate" or something like that. The EP4 was still in Hunter Green and Gold.

I get the impression that the electric locomotives were all still in existence, but not operated, through the mid 1960s.

So there would be no reason not to have one on the layout, just run it when the rivet counters are looking the other way.

One other reason for the Brazilian units having bar frame trucks was that they were 60 tons lighter than the EP4s. I've seen a photo of one of the Brazilian units in red and white, apparently still in service last year.

Peter

[NHRRJET]

By the early 1960s, the only NH motors remaining in service were the 10 EP-5 JETS. The McGinnis/Alpert motive power policies were a complete disaster. McGinnis was intent on de-electrifying the NH except for the commuter zone. He wanted to dismantle the overhead between Stamford and New Haven.
A mid-50s report by Cloverdale and Colpits (initiated by the NH) recommended that the railroad NOT purchase $17million worth of FL9s from EMD; they said the investment would be better spent on the electrification. The report stated "So long as the wires are up, its cheaper to use them." McGinnis ignored this. The railroad began to put out to pasture many of the big motors such as the EP-2s, EP-3s,EP-4s and the powerful EF-3s. One EF-3 could haul 125 cars on a Bay Ridge job via the Hell Gate Bridge. McGinnis, then Alpert who continued his policies replaced one EF-3 on a train with 4 diesels! There's a real economical switch! By 1963 when the NH had already entered its last and final bankruptcy, the trustees soon realized how ignorant McGinnis and Alpert both were and what a terrible motive power error had been made. The de-electrification of the VGN by the N&W made the ex-VGN EL-C rectifiers available for$20,000 each. A tenth of their original cost. The NH trustees purchased the engines from the N&W, restrung the catenary that had been removed to Bay Ridge and once again the NH was operating electric freight between Cedar Hill and Bay Ridge.

[AntonioFP45]

NHRRJET,

Thanks so much! You have a good wealth of information. I was never aware that McGinnis was anti-electric. Apparently he was trying to save money, the wrong way.
Ironically he was always hailed as a hero from what I've read in the past. It's sad that the combination of poor decisions and the highway system did the NH in.

I'm glad that I got to see NH trains as a kid, though at the time all I knew was that occasionally I'd see some "cool looking" silver and red passenger trains flying by. I also remember several times looking from my family's apartment window in New York and staring at what I thought were strange looking "box shaped" engines with orange and white stripes. About 25 years later, Bachmann produced them in HO! Memories came rushing back!

A few years ago I saw an old movie on TV. Apparantly a woman (Doris Day?) was trying to ship lobsters to customers by rail and the "Bad Guy" was the head of the railroad, which of course was the New Haven. Good, good movie! Real nice shot of a New Haven commuter train pulled by an FL9. Forgot the name of the movie.

[M636C]

Antonio,

The movie was "It Happened To Jane" with Jack Lemmon and Doris Day and NYNH&H 3016 (a 2-8-2) lettered for "Eastern And Portland #97" made 1958.

There are pictures fom the movie in Swanberg's "New Haven Power", which mentions 1959 as the last year for EF-3s and 1961 as the final year for EP-4s.

Peter

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you Peter,

As someone mentioned, I think I can run an EP4 in the mid-1960s rivit counters or not! Hopefully this isn't a limited run as I would like to get the EP5 first from Branford Hobbies when production starts this coming fall.

Cheers!

[NHRRJET]

Antonio:

I'm glad you found my posting informative.
Some characterize McGinnis as a "visionary villain." In a forthcoming issue of the NHRHTA SHORELINER(r), there will be a feature article on the Coverdale & Colpits report. Believe me, it makes for some interesting reading. It truly illustrates how foolish McGinnis and Alpert were.
You mentioned IT HAPPENED TO JANE; great movie. Supposedly, the character played by Ernie Kovacs, Harry Foster Malone is allegedly based on McGinnis. The NH denied this.
Another movie which has some nice NH shots is The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit with Gregory Peck. Nice shots of EP-5s and EP-3s.

[AntonioFP45]

NHRRJET,

Thanks again. I'll look for this movie. I'm also a Gregory Peck fan. My favorite Peck film is "Captain Hornblower", (whose character in turn was Star Trek's basic model for Captain Kirk).

It's sad that the NH actually could have had a better future than the one it winded up with.

[NHRRJET]

Antonio:
Capt. Horatio Hornblower is fabulous! One of my all-time Gregory Peck favorites. . . .Virginia Mayo didn't look too shabby!!
Since you like the NH, my layout will be in the 8/04 issue of MR. . . .all electric!

[AntonioFP45]

NHRRJet,

Great! It's good to see that you have an appreciation for good quality.

I'll also look forward to seeing you layout in the August issue. BTW: Your profile doesn't list what scale you model in. (hint-update-hint) Is it O,N or HO?

If you model HO, have you considered the EP5 electric that Branford Hobbies is supposed to be producing soon?

Cheers to you!

[NHRRJET]

Antonio:

I model in HO scale. I currently have 3 OMI EP-5's, so I probably won't be getting one from Branford. For a plastic model, Branford did a nice job; I think you'd like it.

[AntonioFP45]

Hey NHRRJET!

You just helped me out! I've never seen any photos of the plastic EP5 from Branford so I'm glad to read that you are familiar with it and have positive remarks! The gentleman that I spoke to on the phone was friendly and helpful, but as a consumer I like to know what I'm buying. I'm looking forward to getting it.

I just had a thought. I'm wondering if this EP4 from "Frateschi" would fit on an HO GG1 chassis like the old AHM, IHC, or Pemco models? If I'm not mistaken, the wheel arrangement is 2-C-C-2 (or 4-6-6-4), same as the GG1.

Cheers!

[NHRRJET]

Antonio:

I'm glad I was able to help you out concerning the EP-5.
The wheel arrangement you refer to is actually 2-C+C-2; minus(-) indicates non-articulated while plus(+) indicates an articulated joint.
The GG1 sideframes are actually different than the NH EP-4,EP-3 and EF-3. Since the correct sideframes are not available, I would probably go with the GG1 frames too.

[AntonioFP45]

Much appreciated!

Thank you NHRRJET!

[AntonioFP45]

Just saw an interesting photo.

It's a BOX CAB electric pulling a New Haven passenger train. It is in the McGinnis colors. Upper body is red, lower half white, front door is black. The body style resembles that of the New York Central's "P" motors.

Photo's a little blurry, but the first number below the engineer's front window is a 3. Is this an EP2 or an EF series unit?

Thanks!
It's not an E-33 electric.

[Supermicha]

Where can i see photos of the branford ep-5? And where can i order it?

[AntonioFP45]

Supermicha,

No photo available, which was the dilemma I had. They don't have a website. However, according to the New Haven Railroad Technical Historical Society, Branford Hobbies is legit, and the model looks very good though not exact as it sits on a modified Athearn PA chassis. I believe the price is around $200; that's not bad especially if you consider that the OMI brass EP5 sells for $794!!! Way too stiff for me!

The society did give this plastic Branford model a "thumbs up". The EP5 is due this fall. Here is the info:

Branford Hobbies
609 Boston Post Rd.
Branford, Connecticut 06405

Tel: (203) - 488-9865

I called the manager and spoke to him at length. It's a family business. Very friendly and helpful. The model is due this Sept/Oct. What I'm going to do is call him again in the fall and request that he take a digital photo and e-mail it to me. As a skeptical consumer, I still have to see what I'm getting!

Hope this helps!

[David_Telesha]

Some mis-info here.

If you are going to be painting the EP-4 (or EF-3 depending on how you kit ba***he Brazilian model) you need Pullman Green - #13 Pullman Green to be exact.

There is no such scheme as "Hunter green and gold".

There was a Hunter Green and Pearl gray pinstriped scheme but no gold.

The green-gold combinations were either #13 Pullman w/ #44 Dulux gold or #401 Exterior green with IMITATION Gold.

Also - yes, there were two New Haven EP-2 and two EP-3 boxcabs painted in variations of the 1954 Mc Ginnis scheme.

[Anonymous]

I've read a review of this in "Le Train" (A French model train magazine) - their general opinion seemed to be that it was a good, solid model. Detail would appear to be along the lines of early P1K (moulded handrails) but the pantographs are rather nice models - they don't pick up power but are nicely modelled. Power is through two smallish motors (they look like the ones used in Scalextric slot cars, but with a flywheel added) but they seemed happy with the chassis. Basic directional lighting is fitted and while there's no DCC socket the motors are easily isolated - you'd just need to desolder the pickup wires and solder the decoder in.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

NHRRJET,

Thanks again. I'll look for this movie. I'm also a Gregory Peck fan. My favorite Peck film is "Captain Hornblower", (whose character in turn was Star Trek's basic model for Captain Kirk).

It's sad that the NH actually could have had a better future than the one it winded up with.

Blast me timbers... ANOTHER Captian Hornblower fan.

That was one movie that was pretty good. So are the C.S. Forester books.

Regarding the electrics on New Haven, there is a archive site with the movie about the New Haven Railroad in three parts. I will have to dig thru my own postings on this forum to find the link. But anyways it shows a electric hooking up to the Yankee Flyer for the run into NYC. I dont know if this Electric is the same as the model produced in Brazil.

[AntonioFP45]

Wow!

I didn't think I'd see this thread again.

Haven't read any posts from NHRRJ. I hope is doing o.k.

Ran into some financial spots, so I never did get an EP4 or a Branford EP5. This is still one of my goals though.

10-4!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

NHRRJET,

Thanks again. I'll look for this movie. I'm also a Gregory Peck fan. My favorite Peck film is "Captain Hornblower", (whose character in turn was Star Trek's basic model for Captain Kirk).

It's sad that the NH actually could have had a better future than the one it winded up with.

Blast me timbers... ANOTHER Captian Hornblower fan.

That was one movie that was pretty good. So are the C.S. Forester books.

Regarding the electrics on New Haven, there is a archive site with the movie about the New Haven Railroad in three parts. I will have to dig thru my own postings on this forum to find the link. But anyways it shows a electric hooking up to the Yankee Flyer for the run into NYC. I dont know if this Electric is the same as the model produced in Brazil.

Off topic I know, but have either of you seen the TV series version of "Hornblower" with Ioan Gruffydd in the title role? A very believeable rendition - I've not read the original books but it fits perfectly with what I know of naval warfare of that era.

[Anonymous]

railroading_brit, I believe I have. (Off topic I know..) I think I have read all of the orginal books and I think the films highlighted some of the more "fun" aspects of a time that was filled with danger, boredom, terror and death as well as abuses that would not be tolerated in today's age.

[Supermicha]

Hi Guys,

long time is gone since i startet this topic, but i want to show you an image of my nearly ready EP-4. I closed the old doors and fans with styrene and putty, built new fans from evergreen styrene, and also some new doors. Well, its not absolutely accurate, but i´m very satisfied with the results at the moment...